Are our players improving their technical ATTACKING skills?

[Rileybobs]

I always thought that our football under Coyle was a breath of fresh air, lots of pass and move...

look where that ended up.
Our formula is keeping us in the PL, but we are predictable, and often terrible to watch.
I doubt we can really do much better with what we have.

I do agree though that the forwards should practice their art instead of whatever they are doing in training currently.

I think the predictability is always looked upon as a negative by our fans. Most teams are predictable in the way that they play. When opposition managers and players say that they know what they're going to get against Burnley, they're not saying that in a disparaging way. They're saying that we (almost) always give teams a tough game, through our physicality, fitness and organisation. They're complimenting the consistency of our performances. Contrast that with a team like Arsenal where you truly don't know whether they're going to show up.

[DanH90]

I echo what somebody further up the thread said. We are a workmanlike team who are outstanding at the back, and rely heavily on our strikers to take the few chances they have in order to win games.

However long term I think this is a problem. You can not rely on 2 players to always perform and get the majority of the goals. We need to attempt to slowly transition into a team who are still defensively solid but can break quickly and with purpose, which relies on at least / players with pace and flair (which we are sadly lacking) and one midfielder who can spray a ball around to begin the counter.
If we went all out attack at this point, we would definitely get relegated. I think Dyche knows all this and now we have a little more cash to spend I would like to think this is his vision for the team in the medium term.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Can't rely on 2 players to always perform and score the goals?

Screenshot_20210114_170441_uk.co.bbc.android.sportdomestic.jpg (188.71 KiB) Viewed 1569 times

[SalisburyClaret]

Really? That’s not true, not even in the slightest.

You can track technical ability back to childhood. Put an incorrect picture/model in there and you’re already done for.

You can improve, but you cannot reset the base of a persons free movement, scanning, balance, gait, and so on.

Couldn’t disagree more - otherwise why would anyone practice

If you can’t write with your left hand - practice for 2 hours a day - evaluate the results in 6 months and guess what. Same with trapping a ball or using your “wrong” foot

[Vegas Claret]

we will always struggle when you have one of the front two whose close control is abysmal, this doesn't allow a midfielder to push on and support as 8 times out of 10 it's coming back at them. It's something that needs to massively improve or players need to be replaced

[Slurpy]

The only way we can improve our attacking ability is improving the starting 11, no-one in our teams midfield and attack is irreplaceable and there are better players out there to get. We need to be looking at players with more composure on the ball who can carry it forward instead of panicking and lumping it into the channel, although I'm sure that is probably an instruction given them. The amount of times when we are under pressure in games and we refuse to try to build any sort of possession and are happy with consistently giving the ball away is frightening. McNeil and Brownhill have a level of composure , but I don't see it often from whoever is playing right midfield or Westwood. Barnes just never seems to be on the same page as his teamates. We looked our best in the premier league when we played 5 in midfield and with 4-4-2 we are often overrun in the middle so better midfield options could allow us to revert back to a five. Ever since Trippier left, Lowton, Darikwa and Bardsley have failed to provide anything close to the attacking threat we had from the right back, if we can get someone in even close to being a right sided Charlie Taylor at least we'd begin to start asking more question on that side. We just simply need a few more players with consistent quality who are willing to put a shift in, not easy to find.

[Zlatan]

Couldn’t disagree more - otherwise why would anyone practice

If you can’t write with your left hand - practice for 2 hours a day - evaluate the results in 6 months and guess what. Same with trapping a ball or using your “wrong” foot

As a lefty who was "forced" to try and write with my right hand at school I can confirm that my handwriting is terrible and always was. However, after being allowed to choose I developed a party trick where I could write with both hands simultaneously in mirrored form - so right hand was a mirror of the left, though it takes much more thought than it used to.

In essence, it supports your argument that with practice people can achieve many things, so I'm sure players could work on developing their weaker attributes providing they have the time of course - and I dont subscribe to the theory that they have loads of spare time, rest is a key part of any elite athletes timetable.

[SalisburyClaret]

As a lefty who was "forced" to try and write with my right hand at school I can confirm that my handwriting is terrible and always was. However, after being allowed to choose I developed a party trick where I could write with both hands simultaneously in mirrored form - so right hand was a mirror of the left, though it takes much more thought than it used to.

In essence, it supports your argument that with practice people can achieve many things, so I'm sure players could work on developing their weaker attributes providing they have the time of course - and I dont subscribe to the theory that they have loads of spare time, rest is a key part of any elite athletes timetable.

That’s a heck of a party piece Zlatan - very impressive!

You’re right about the time - think we assume footballers have tons of spare time but it’s probably all mapped out for them

[Rumbletonk]

No he isn't, he's talking about training.

So you genuinely think the OP meant Pace should go to Gawthorpe and give his advice as to how Dyche could better his attacking coaching methods? Of course he didn't mean that. He should be tackling the issue though as it is clearly a problem that we need to address.

[boatshed bill]

I think the predictability is always looked upon as a negative by our fans. Most teams are predictable in the way that they play. When opposition managers and players say that they know what they're going to get against Burnley, they're not saying that in a disparaging way. They're saying that we (almost) always give teams a tough game, through our physicality, fitness and organisation. They're complimenting the consistency of our performances. Contrast that with a team like Arsenal where you truly don't know whether they're going to show up.

True,
but watching it weekly can be so frustrating.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

Couldn’t disagree more - otherwise why would anyone practice

If you can’t write with your left hand - practice for 2 hours a day - evaluate the results in 6 months and guess what. Same with trapping a ball or using your “wrong” foot

You’d be proficient, but you wouldn’t be natural. Have a read of Bounce and then come back and we can have a great conversation.

6 months @ 2 hours a day is 360 hours on one element of one skill. Where are you getting the 9,540 hours to achieve mastery in?

You cannot fully remap a fundamental movement skill as an adult. It’s embedded as a child.

[Newcastleclaret93]

The only way we can improve our attacking ability is improving the starting 11, no-one in our teams midfield and attack is irreplaceable and there are better players out there to get. We need to be looking at players with more composure on the ball who can carry it forward instead of panicking and lumping it into the channel, although I'm sure that is probably an instruction given them. The amount of times when we are under pressure in games and we refuse to try to build any sort of possession and are happy with consistently giving the ball away is frightening. McNeil and Brownhill have a level of composure , but I don't see it often from whoever is playing right midfield or Westwood. Barnes just never seems to be on the same page as his teamates. We looked our best in the premier league when we played 5 in midfield and with 4-4-2 we are often overrun in the middle so better midfield options could allow us to revert back to a five. Ever since Trippier left, Lowton, Darikwa and Bardsley have failed to provide anything close to the attacking threat we had from the right back, if we can get someone in even close to being a right sided Charlie Taylor at least we'd begin to start asking more question on that side. We just simply need a few more players with consistent quality who are willing to put a shift in, not easy to find.

I mean Charlie Taylor is not exactly an attacking threat.
In roughly 70 games he has managed 0 goals and 3 assists.

For comparison Matthew lowton in 93 games has managed 0 goals and 6 assists.

If we are being honest we need to improve our attacking output all over the pitch.

Brownhill is particularly poor going forward.

[Jenny55]

Without rubbishing the OP this ain’t the FIFA World Soccer computer game we are playing, it is real world football. We are playing the way Dyche wants us to play with the resources available to him. Because we don’t spend a lot of time in possession we do have a tendency to lump it forward or play the diagonal balls. Therefore when the ball reaches our front men from open play it is often like a hot potato so rarely do they get time and space to use their attacking skills and often have to snatch at chances instead of neatly tucking them away. We are more productive from our dead ball situations where our strikers/midfielders are scoring from headers or the second or third ball. It is not for many purists and can be frustrating at times, however it has kept us in this division for the last four seasons.

[boatshed bill]

Living in a cave is better than being homeless, doesn't mean you have to put up with it forever.

[Jenny55]

Living in a cave is better than being homeless, doesn't mean you have to put up with it forever.

Perhaps we do have to put up with it in order to stay in the holy grail called the Premier League? I’m not a big fan of our style of play, it often bores me rigid although I do get a little satisfaction when we prove the bookies wrong year on year. To change our style of play would require a massive overhaul of the squad and perhaps a change of manager. I don’t think Alan Pace and the new owners have any appetite to do this or are even able to with their small amount of investment with borrowed money.

[Stalbansclaret]

I remember Ian Wright saying that whenever he had a dry spell goals-wise he would stay behind after training and just repeatedly belt the ball into an empty net from all angles and distances. If that was good enough for Wrighty..a goal-scoring fanatic...I hope Ashley and Woody are doing the same.

[SalisburyClaret]

You’d be proficient, but you wouldn’t be natural. Have a read of Bounce and then come back and we can have a great conversation.

6 months @ 2 hours a day is 360 hours on one element of one skill. Where are you getting the 9,540 hours to achieve mastery in?

You cannot fully remap a fundamental movement skill as an adult. It’s embedded as a child.

Think we’ll have to agree to disagree DW
You can teach an older dog new tricks or st least improve what they struggle with, if you can’t it makes a mockery of football coaching and all training - not just in football.

[boatshed bill]

. To change our style of play would require a massive overhaul of the squad and perhaps a change of manager. .

You see, I don't agree with this.
I genuinely believe it could be achieved gradually based on signing players with the potential for improvement.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

Think we’ll have to agree to disagree DW
You can teach an older dog new tricks or st least improve what they struggle with, if you can’t it makes a mockery of football coaching and all training - not just in football.

We can always disagree, and you can teach new things, but not to a level that would cut it in the professional game. In ANY sport. You can only build upon the foundations laid down.

You can’t teach pace, you can only refine it.

[warksclaret]

I mean Charlie Taylor is not exactly an attacking threat.
In roughly 70 games he has managed 0 goals and 3 assists.

For comparison Matthew lowton in 93 games has managed 0 goals and 6 assists.

If we are being honest we need to improve our attacking output all over the pitch.

Brownhill is particularly poor going forward.

Its amazing how key a part full backs play in "goals contribution" in todays game, particularly with those sides playing 3 at the back-the natural full back is now adopted as a wide midfielder. No wonder fees for full backs with these qualities has ballooned-just look at Man City. Chilwell is another good example-an immense attacking full back. Robertson, Doherty of Spurs, and Trent Arnold are usually in the "assists league

We had a fabulous example the first year we were promoted under SD, with Trippier from memory having something like 14 assists in one seasonv

[RMutt]

I think most people would agree that having Defour in midfield, a player with composure who appeared to have a little more time to pick a pass made us better to watch. One player. It doesn’t have to be wholesale change. There seems to be thing on here for themes to be characterised in extremes. This isn’t the first thread to go this way, It’s either gung ho attacking football that will inevitably lead to relegation or a pragmatic defensive style that is not easy on the eye but ensures Premier League survival. Surely there can be a bit of middle ground where some incremental changes don’t upset the whole apple cart and just Improves us.

[DCWat]

I’ve got to agree with DJW on this.

However much a child might practice, if they don’t have that natural ability, they won’t make it.

Practice can always bring about improvements - you don’t get to where Messi and Ronaldo have without practicing, honing skills and developing that natural talent.

Hell, I played football in every spare minute I had as a kid, but I was only ever going to reach a level way, way below league standard. Without the natural talent (and all that encompasses) you just cannot achieve the levels required, no matter how hard you work or how much you practice.

[Spijed]

Its amazing how key a part full backs play in "goals contribution" in todays game, particularly with those sides playing 3 at the back-the natural full back is now adopted as a wide midfielder. No wonder fees for full backs with these qualities has ballooned-just look at Man City. Chilwell is another good example-an immense attacking full back. Robertson, Doherty of Spurs, and Trent Arnold are usually in the "assists league

We had a fabulous example the first year we were promoted under SD, with Trippier from memory having something like 14 assists in one seasonv

Thing is, we need someone who can defend first and foremost. None of those players you mention are as good as Taylor purely as a defender.

The issue is, those teams have a more creative midfield which allows for a more attacking wing back.

[Pstotto]

They hit a lot of rhetorical shots without thinking, as a simulation of an intuition of knowing where the goal is.

They do glancing headers when a straightforward header would do.

They engage the keeper rather than ignoring them and seeing only the space of the goal.

Barnes does it every week.

They are on £30,000 a week.

For that amount of money, no excuses.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Thing is, we need someone who can defend first and foremost. None of those players you mention are as good as Taylor purely as a defender.

The issue is, those teams have a more creative midfield which allows for a more attacking wing back.

All of the defenders he has mentioned are better defenders than Taylor or Lowton.

Our Rb and Lb very rarely defend 1 on 1, the majority of the time we are defending with 6 defenders. The Rw and Lw usually tuck in as extra defenders.

To be brutally honest all of our players are lower end premier league quality. I would argue only Pope and McNeil are genuinely top level (ie man United/Chelsea level) talent.

[Pstotto]

It's a bit like tennis and the viewer wants to know why they keep hitting the ball to each other?

[bobinho]

What a bunch of little babies there are on here. Clearly the OP didn't mean Pace was going to storm on to the training pitch and start barking orders. If I was Pace I'd be asking Dyche how and what he's doing or going to do to improve our attacking stats. That is standard practice of an employer/employee relationship. Dyche will fully expect questions like that to be asked of him and will no doubt be able to answer.

It may be standard practice in an employer/employee relationship in a normal business environment, but this is football and far from normal. And if you were Mr Pace and i was Mr Dyche and you turned up to my training session armed with questions like that, you would very quickly be on your way home. Dyche is the SME here, not Pace - who knows considerably less than most people on here about football and in particular how to solve our on the field issues regarding playing attacking football and scoring goals. Let Dyche get on with what he's good at and employed to do, and let Pace get on with strengthening the infrastructure and finances of the club. It's utterly bizarre that anyone would think that a non-football person should get involved in playing/training decisions or even asking bone questions about attacking stats whether he owns the club or not.

If the OP didn't mean what he said, he could go back and edit and re-phrase it. You can read between the lines and guess at what he meant, what he SAID was "IMO we should spend more of our training time on technical ATTACKING skills. Maybe something that Mr Pace should take a look at". It most certainly ISN'T anything Mr Pace should be looking at.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It may be standard practice in an employer/employee relationship in a normal business environment, but this is football and far from normal. And if you were Mr Pace and i was Mr Dyche and you turned up to my training session armed with questions like that, you would very quickly be on your way home. Dyche is the SME here, not Pace - who knows considerably less than most people on here about football and in particular how to solve our on the field issues regarding playing attacking football and scoring goals. Let Dyche get on with what he's good at and employed to do, and let Pace get on with strengthening the infrastructure and finances of the club. It's utterly bizarre that anyone would think that a non-football person should get involved in playing/training decisions or even asking bone questions about attacking stats whether he owns the club or not.

If the OP didn't mean what he said, he could go back and edit and re-phrase it. You can read between the lines and guess at what he meant, what he SAID was "IMO we should spend more of our training time on technical ATTACKING skills. Maybe something that Mr Pace should take a look at". It most certainly ISN'T anything Mr Pace should be looking at.

I completely disagree, he’s is the chairmen. He can request whatever he wants from Dyche

[Rileybobs]

I completely disagree, he’s is the chairmen. He can request whatever he wants from Dyche

Should the chairman be giving the players tips on what runs to make on the pitch?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Should the chairman be giving the players tips on what runs to make on the pitch?

What’s that got to do with anything?

Pace is the chairmen he can literally take the club in any direction he wants. Not saying I agree with what the OP is saying but if Pace did want the club to play a more attacking brand of football he could demand that.

[Rileybobs]

What’s that got to do with anything?

Pace is the chairmen he can literally take the club in any direction he wants. Not saying I agree with what the OP is saying but if Pace did want the club to play a more attacking brand of football he could demand that.

Well it’s got to do with the fact that of course the chairman can request anything of his employees within reason. But he’s stepping way out of his jurisdiction giving the manager advice or instructions on how to train his players. I doubt any manager worth his salt would stick around to work for a chairman like that.

[bobinho]

I completely disagree, he’s is the chairmen. He can request whatever he wants from Dyche

Just because he can, doesn't mean he should. It's his train set, doesn't mean he should be driving it.

[bobinho]

Well it’s got to do with the fact that of course the chairman can request anything of his employees within reason. But he’s stepping way out of his jurisdiction giving the manager advice or instructions on how to train his players. I doubt any manager worth his salt would stick around to work for a chairman like that.

So many examples of this going spectacularly badly...

[Rumbletonk]

It may be standard practice in an employer/employee relationship in a normal business environment, but this is football and far from normal. And if you were Mr Pace and i was Mr Dyche and you turned up to my training session armed with questions like that, you would very quickly be on your way home. Dyche is the SME here, not Pace - who knows considerably less than most people on here about football and in particular how to solve our on the field issues regarding playing attacking football and scoring goals. Let Dyche get on with what he's good at and employed to do, and let Pace get on with strengthening the infrastructure and finances of the club. It's utterly bizarre that anyone would think that a non-football person should get involved in playing/training decisions or even asking bone questions about attacking stats whether he owns the club or not.

If the OP didn't mean what he said, he could go back and edit and re-phrase it. You can read between the lines and guess at what he meant, what he SAID was "IMO we should spend more of our training time on technical ATTACKING skills. Maybe something that Mr Pace should take a look at". It most certainly ISN'T anything Mr Pace should be looking at.

It's clear to everyone involved or has watched us this season that there is an issue with us as an attacking force. Its' more than reasonable to expect Pace to address this with Dyche. No one has mentioned attacking Dyche because of it or being armed with questions. The OP said looking at it which if I was the Chairman I would do. That may come in the form of asking Dyche what he needs to help change things. Dyche is sensible enough not to throw a hissy fit like you if his employers asks him a reasonable question or offers help

[Mala591]

If Pace wants Dyche to play a more attacking brand of football (a more marketable product) then he must ask Dyche what he needs to gradually move in that direction.

Obviously recruitment of better quality players is part of the answer but imo better quality attacking/offensive coaching is also part of the solution. This may or may not include the additional recruitment of a specialist attacking coach and the players spending more time on the training ground working and perfecting attacking routines.

[boatshed bill]

Does anyone really believe that we are better now (or even as good as) than we were the season we got in to the Europa League?

[Mala591]

It's clear to everyone involved or has watched us this season that there is an issue with us as an attacking force. Its' more than reasonable to expect Pace to address this with Dyche. No one has mentioned attacking Dyche because of it or being armed with questions. The OP said looking at it which if I was the Chairman I would do. That may come in the form of asking Dyche what he needs to help change things. Dyche is sensible enough not to throw a hissy fit like you if his employers asks him a reasonable question or offers help

Thank you Rumbletonk for explaining my OP in the spirit it was intended.

[bobinho]

It's clear to everyone involved or has watched us this season that there is an issue with us as an attacking force. Its' more than reasonable to expect Pace to address this with Dyche. No one has mentioned attacking Dyche because of it or being armed with questions. The OP said looking at it which if I was the Chairman I would do. That may come in the form of asking Dyche what he needs to help change things. Dyche is sensible enough not to throw a hissy fit like you if his employers asks him a reasonable question or offers help

Keep it civil fella, no hissy fit here.

I have no problem whatsoever with the chairman asking Dyche what he needs to improve our attacking threat - none at all. I do have a problem with anyone thinking or suggesting it's normal or acceptable for Mr Pace to be asking SD about our training practices with regard to attacking play.

[Rileybobs]

Does anyone really believe that we are better now (or even as good as) than we were the season we got in to the Europa League?

The team is almost identical. Some players have improved, some have regressed. Almost all are more out of form - that's probably the main difference. The league is also stronger.

[Rumbletonk]

Keep it civil fella, no hissy fit here.

I have no problem whatsoever with the chairman asking Dyche what he needs to improve our attacking threat - none at all. I do have a problem with anyone thinking or suggesting it's normal or acceptable for Mr Pace to be asking SD about our training practices with regard to attacking play.

Fair enough. Hissy taken back. The lad didn't say anything about training practices though. I can guarantee you that the manager will have had regular sit downs with Rigg now Pace and address current issues such as our lack of goals. It would be insane if they didn't

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Does anyone really believe that we are better now (or even as good as) than we were the season we got in to the Europa League?

Nope, but we are missing a very good technical player in Defour and we've got injury prone wingers in Brady and JBG.

We are very workmanlike which is effective for us and honestly I wouldn't bother wasting time trying to get more creativity out of certain players, I'd be out looking for less injury prone wingers with ability and ship out our 2 injury prone ones.

Also time to look for our future right back, in the mould of Trippier.

[kentonclaret]

Newcastleclaret93 wrote

"Brownhill is particularly poor going forward"

With 0 goals and 0 assists for Burnley in the PL he certainly has a point.

However, I noticed from a stat put up during a match the other evening that Josh Brownhill is very close to the top of the PL chart for making interceptions and breaking up play.

During his last 3 seasons at Bristol City Josh scored 5 goals in each of those seasons and contributed with several assists. Far better than his record whilst with Burnley.

So, to view him as particularly poor going forward might be judging Josh too harshly. Perhaps he is just being asked to play a different role and concentrate all his efforts on other aspects of his game?

[boatshed bill]

The team is almost identical. Some players have improved, some have regressed. Almost all are more out of form - that's probably the main difference. The league is also stronger.

Is the league really stronger? I have my doubts about that.
I accept that 6 to 8 teams are setting a higher standard but the rest are mediocre to poor.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Our new chairman should at least be adding some pace to the forwards.

[Rileybobs]

Is the league really stronger? I have my doubts about that.
I accept that 6 to 8 teams are setting a higher standard but the rest are mediocre to poor.

The league seems a lot stronger this season. When we qualified for Europe, Newcastle finished in the top half, Bournemouth finished 12th and Huddersfield finished 16th. City won the league by 19 points to Man Utd, and 34 points was enough to survive the drop. Looking back, it was a very weak league that season.

[Spijed]

Our new chairman should at least be adding some pace to the forwards.

Is he going to register himself?

[Bin Ont Turf]

Is he going to register himself?

Well done you got it. Get yourself a lollipop.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Newcastleclaret93 wrote

"Brownhill is particularly poor going forward"

With 0 goals and 0 assists for Burnley in the PL he certainly has a point.

However, I noticed from a stat put up during a match the other evening that Josh Brownhill is very close to the top of the PL chart for making interceptions and breaking up play.

During his last 3 seasons at Bristol City Josh scored 5 goals in each of those seasons and contributed with several assists. Far better than his record whilst with Burnley.

So, to view him as particularly poor going forward might be judging Josh too harshly. Perhaps he is just being asked to play a different role and concentrate all his efforts on other aspects of his game?

If I am being honest I’m not judging him, I just know that he statistically he is our worst offensive midfielder going forwards. I posted a few games ago that out of all of our midfielders he had the worst stats in the following areas: key passes, crosses, dribbles, take ons, forward passes. Probably changed now as he has had a few better games going forward recently. Still think he is a really good player and will eventually develop the attacking side of his game.

[Slurpy]

I mean Charlie Taylor is not exactly an attacking threat.
In roughly 70 games he has managed 0 goals and 3 assists.

For comparison Matthew lowton in 93 games has managed 0 goals and 6 assists.

If we are being honest we need to improve our attacking output all over the pitch.

Brownhill is particularly poor going forward.

Ok he might not have the assists to back it up but you just have to watch us to know that he often contributes to attacks and actually trys to get forward

[kentonclaret]

When asked to sum up what qualities Josh Brownhill brings to the team Sean Dysche responded "I like his boundless energy, will and desire."

Josh Brownhill was not signed by Dyche for the attacking qualities that he might bring.