VAR and the rules.

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gandhisflipflop
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VAR and the rules.

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:24 pm

I know it’s been done to death but this not putting the flag up for offside until the move is done is both infuriating and ridiculous. They’ve literally had to change the rules to try and make VAR work. Surely there has to come a point where scrapping it altogether is considered? The pundits hate it, the fans hate it and I’m sure the players do too. It’s just killing the game.
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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:34 pm

They will scrap the ARs before they even think about VAR. They will adapt the goal line technology to give ball in and out of play and also to judge on offside. Enjoy.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm

Makes perfect sense and gives every opportunity to get potential game changing decisions correct.

If you scrapped this then it would only lead to some perfectly good goals being disallowed as where the linesman got it wrong by not giving offside the goal would still be reviewed and disallowed

I guess if you're happy for goals to to be wrongly disallowed because having to wait an extra 5 or 10 seconds does your head in then fair enough thats your prerogative

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by taio » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:41 pm

It's a tricky one. There is some logic to how it works but it's only a matter of time before play continues after a blatant offside and as a result a player suffers a serious injury.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Burnley1989 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:45 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm
Makes perfect sense and gives every opportunity to get potential game changing decisions correct.

If you scrapped this then it would only lead to some perfectly good goals being disallowed as where the linesman got it wrong by not giving offside the goal would still be reviewed and disallowed

I guess if you're happy for goals to to be wrongly disallowed because having to wait an extra 5 or 10 seconds does your head in then fair enough thats your prerogative
This, I understand the frustration but it’s the right way to do it. Someone will end up getting injured I’d imagine and there will be uproar, it’s still the right way for me

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by wilks_bfc » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:53 pm

taio wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:41 pm
It's a tricky one. There is some logic to how it works but it's only a matter of time before play continues after a blatant offside and as a result a player suffers a serious injury.
It nearly happened to us the other week against Wolves, when Mee tracked back

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:54 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:53 pm
It nearly happened to us the other week against Wolves, when Mee tracked back
Was it Wolves? I knew it had happened recently with Ben Mee.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by wilks_bfc » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:11 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:54 pm
Was it Wolves? I knew it had happened recently with Ben Mee.
I was unsure if Wolves or Sheff United but just checked and it was Wolves

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by chekhov » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:13 pm

For tight calls I can understand, but otherwise the AR should put his flag up.
My own view is they should let the onfield officials get on with the game. The var should only come in for “clear and obvious” errors. Wasn’t that the original idea? Not this ridiculous forensic examination of whose forelock is closest to the goal.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by ClaretTony » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:15 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:11 pm
I was unsure if Wolves or Sheff United but just checked and it was Wolves
When I’m going to games I can always remember incidents in away games and which game but struggle at times at home. Now I struggle with all of them.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by bfcmartin » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:26 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm
Makes perfect sense and gives every opportunity to get potential game changing decisions correct.

If you scrapped this then it would only lead to some perfectly good goals being disallowed as where the linesman got it wrong by not giving offside the goal would still be reviewed and disallowed

I guess if you're happy for goals to to be wrongly disallowed because having to wait an extra 5 or 10 seconds does your head in then fair enough thats your prerogative
Do you mean like the decisions at Leeds

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:29 pm

bfcmartin wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:26 pm
Do you mean like the decisions at Leeds
No the discussion is about offside and VAR

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by bfcmartin » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:30 pm

So VAR wasn't used at Leeds then

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:31 pm

Could the AR not still flag but the referee allow play to continue in the case of goal scoring opportunities. Pretty sure that’s what they did originally. It led to some confusion as some players saw the flag and stopped, but it is up to them to play to the whistle.

This is another example of the spectacle of the game being diminished.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:38 pm

bfcmartin wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:30 pm
So VAR wasn't used at Leeds then
There is no subjectivity or interpretation with the way VAR rules on an offside call. This is completely different to where VAR provides supporting evidence to the Ref or the VAR official (for foul play) who then interpret what they see to make a decision.

Again and for the final time the topic was around how the linesmen wait to put up their flag to allow a potential goal scoring opportunity play out. If you cant get this basic premise or you wish to widen the discussion then I cant help you.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:41 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:31 pm
Could the AR not still flag but the referee allow play to continue in the case of goal scoring opportunities. Pretty sure that’s what they did originally. It led to some confusion as some players saw the flag and stopped, but it is up to them to play to the whistle.

This is another example of the spectacle of the game being diminished.
Yes but as you say it caused confusion. The AR actually still makes a decision once the goal threat is over so for example if it is allowed to continue and the keeper makes a save which goes behind for a corner but the AR thought it was offside they would then raise their flag and it would be a free kick to the defending side and not a corner.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:46 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:41 pm
Yes but as you say it caused confusion. The AR actually still makes a decision once the goal threat is over so for example if it is allowed to continue and the keeper makes a save which goes behind for a corner but the AR thought it was offside they would then raise their flag and it would be a free kick to the defending side and not a corner.
Yes, but from a spectators point of view I find that it ruins my enjoyment of the game when a player gets clear through on goal and I have absolutely no idea whether he is likely to be offside or not.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:50 pm

Just to clarify. I mean VAR in general and used the offside example of how it’s for me ruining the whole point of football, the moment.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:55 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:46 pm
Yes, but from a spectators point of view I find that it ruins my enjoyment of the game when a player gets clear through on goal and I have absolutely no idea whether he is likely to be offside or not.
I can understand and sympathise that perspective (though to me it seems straight forward that an attacking move is always allowed to play out) but I would rather it catch out and confuse some of the crowd than it catch out a player who by seeing a flag and momentarily stopping could give a goal away or ruin the chance to score a goal.

This preference I guess is one for everyone's own opinion but I think the priority after getting the right decision should be to make it as easy for the players over making it easy for the fans to follow whilst aiming to achieve all three

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:58 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:50 pm
Just to clarify. I mean VAR in general and used the offside example of how it’s for me ruining the whole point of football, the moment.
Fair enough, you wont get me disagreeing with you on the wider context of VAR but think whilst we have VAR the way the linesman uses it for offside decision seems the correct and sensible way of going about it

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:00 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:50 pm
Just to clarify. I mean VAR in general and used the offside example of how it’s for me ruining the whole point of football, the moment.
It only applies at the top levels of the game though and, believe it or not, there is a lot of football played outside of the Premier League and that still relies on onfield officials doing the job.
If they then prove themselves good enough to get promoted, they eventually end up officiating in the Premier League and have to change the way that they have done things for years because they can be pulled to pieces by VAR and the media in general.

Just to add that there have been a number of games this season when the flag hasn't gone up, play continues and then a corner results because the AR considers that play has gone on too long after the original decision should have been made.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:06 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:55 pm
I can understand and sympathise that perspective (though to me it seems straight forward that an attacking move is always allowed to play out) but I would rather it catch out and confuse some of the crowd than it catch out a player who by seeing a flag and momentarily stopping could give a goal away or ruin the chance to score a goal.

This preference I guess is one for everyone's own opinion but I think the priority after getting the right decision should be to make it as easy for the players over making it easy for the fans to follow whilst aiming to achieve all three
I disagree entirely. It’s another example of the spectacle of the game being diminished. I can’t believe the majority of spectators enjoy not having a clue whether the AR is going to flag after the ball has gone in the back of the net.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:10 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:00 pm
Just to add that there have been a number of games this season when the flag hasn't gone up, play continues and then a corner results because the AR considers that play has gone on too long after the original decision should have been made.
Interesting, is there a directive on this or has any refs / ARs gone on record to say this?

The reason I ask is that if the AR doesn't put his flag up and a corner is given how would you know that the AR just thought it was onside and therefore the game should just continue if there is no goal decision to review?
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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:14 pm

The VAR should be watching the screen and if it's obvious just say so straight away. Get the flag up.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:15 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:06 pm
I disagree entirely. It’s another example of the spectacle of the game being diminished. I can’t believe the majority of spectators enjoy not having a clue whether the AR is going to flag after the ball has gone in the back of the net.
I get your viewpoint completely but for me as soon as we decide to use technology then we need to try and get the decision right and ensure there is as little complexity for the players

My wider view is that we should leave decisions up to the officials and accept they will make mistakes but whilst people might seem to agree in principle we can see from fans, managers and pundits alike that this is not acceptable especially when you are on the end of a refs mistake.

For everyone who comes on forums like this week after week blaming the refs for everything then you are all a big reason why we've ended up with VAR in the first place

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:24 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:15 pm
I get your viewpoint completely but for me as soon as we decide to use technology then we need to try and get the decision right and ensure there is as little complexity for the players

My wider view is that we should leave decisions up to the officials and accept they will make mistakes but whilst people might seem to agree in principle we can see from fans, managers and pundits alike that this is not acceptable especially when you are on the end of a refs mistake.

For everyone who comes on forums like this week after week blaming the refs for everything then you are all a big reason why we've ended up with VAR in the first place
That’s true. But I think the majority of people can accept being on the wrong end of a borderline offside call, at least I certainly can.

For me, the sacrifice in entertainment isn’t a worthwhile trade-off.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by bfcmartin » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:25 pm

I think the only way VAR will work is if the VAR refs do not know what decision the on field ref has given. The VAR refs should just be shown the incidents and ask for their view then they cannot be influenced by what the on field ref has given.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by claptrappers_union » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm

When it’s blatantly obvious that a player is offside, the linesman should have the right to flag. It’s common sense, most players know when they’re offside by a distance anyway.

Tight calls should be given benefit of the doubt and left to VAR
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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by claptrappers_union » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:30 pm

bfcmartin wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:25 pm
I think the only way VAR will work is if the VAR refs do not know what decision the on field ref has given. The VAR refs should just be shown the incidents and ask for their view then they cannot be influenced by what the on field ref has given.
I’d have it that VAR are the the main officials and refs are basically just the communicators on the field and apply the basic rules - if VAR is to stay

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by redwasp » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:47 pm

I always thought it was ridiculous but what about our "goal" yesterday if the assistant had got it wrong we wouldn't have been happy.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:51 pm

redwasp wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:47 pm
I always thought it was ridiculous but what about our "goal" yesterday if the assistant had got it wrong we wouldn't have been happy.
No, but I'd rather the assistant had flagged so that I know whether the goal was likely to be chalked off.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Spijed » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:56 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
When it’s blatantly obvious that a player is offside, the linesman should have the right to flag. It’s common sense, most players know when they’re offside by a distance anyway.

Tight calls should be given benefit of the doubt and left to VAR
It's a similar situation to what's crept into cricket with regards to run outs. A player is miles out of his crease but the umpires won't make a decision, only refer it to the TV umpire.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by bf2k » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:08 pm

I’m fine with allowing a move to finish for a close offside. What annoys me is allowing a player to run 30/40 yards to collect a ball then flagging. If the lino is sure it’s offside just flag when the attacker moves for the ball.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:48 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:08 pm
I’m fine with allowing a move to finish for a close offside. What annoys me is allowing a player to run 30/40 yards to collect a ball then flagging. If the lino is sure it’s offside just flag when the attacker moves for the ball.
It is only at the top level that he doesn't flag. It can sometime take up around about one minute of time which is never added on.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by dsr » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:02 am

They have to do it this way because of the new offside rules. Under the old rules when level meant onside, then the linesman had a good chance of getting it right. Now that level has been in practice abolished, the linesman has no chance of judging which way VAR will adjudicate, so it has to be let run on, with the linesman's guess being taken only if there isn't a goal.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by Claretforever » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:29 am

People questioning others whether they’d be happy with perfectly good goals being disallowed by a genuine error from a linesman, for example....yes!

I can’t stand VAR. I don’t like the delays in any way whatsoever, and believe the officials on the pitch are able to make the calls and get them correct almost all the time.

Will they make mistakes? Yes. I accept this, and it’s part of the game which leads to great discussions after the match, and banter with opposition without filling the emotional spontaneity. We will lose out because of it and gain because of it from time to time.

VAR is frustrating right now because it’s still subjective, not automated and immediate like hawk eye, and dilutes the atmosphere when fans are inside grounds. We needed goal line technology and, other than one incident at Villa, seems to work very well. VAR for penalty shouts only with maybe 2 calls per game by Manager? Maybe.

So yes, I’d be happy going back to officials doing the job they’re paid to do.

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Re: VAR and the rules.

Post by wilks_bfc » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:52 am

I don’t have a problem with the assistant referee not flagging if it’s a close call and unsure. If the attacking team goes on to score and VAR judges it to be offside then fair enough, although there needs to be a more consistent & logical approach to that such as based on where the forward foot is and not comparing armpits to big toes

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