Shirt sponsorship

[Chester Perry]

I know AMEX's UK HQ is in Brighton, so that makes a good deal of sense. Curious to know what lead to Emirates sponsoring Arsenal and the stadium but perhaps that answers my own question.
Be interesting so see what sort of companies we could attract if gambling firms were ruled out.

The Amex deal isn't that lucrative actually, we get more for our shirt sponsorship currently

[dandeclaret]

I'd go the whole hog and ban shirt sponsorship completely. Shirts look crap with any sort of sponsor. The quid pro quo would be a free-for-all on training kit: Jack Daniels tracky tops, Bet 365 shorts, Benson & Hedges socks, Pablo Escobar boots. Sorted.

Seriously, though, the day betting companies are banned from football sponsorship (and shirts in particular) can't come soon enough. We heard the same cryarse lack-of-money arguments from Cricket, Snooker and Formula 1 when cigarette advertising was banned a few years ago and I see no shortage of money and sponsorship in those sports today.

Ah yes, Snooker, with the Betfred Masters, The Betfred world masters, and Darts with the William Hill World Darts Championship, The Unibet Premier League Darts, The Paddy Power Open.... with both sports on their knees before gambling sponsors stepped in. Formula 1 always had high end sponsors, and cigarettes were seen as elements of style, so fit the profile. Cricket has never been big on sponsorship has it? Emirates Old Trafford stands out, but Yorkshire were spnosred by a bankrupt uni for a good while, and I couldn't tell you a single sponsor in county cricket. England were sponsored by Vodafone and some Zebras (can't remember the company - Investec was it? - they sponsor the Derby as well in Horse Racing - suggests that being linked with betting isn't a problem for them)

I doubt we'll be seeing Premier League football kits made by Gucci, or Louis Vuitton. If there was a world of big money sponsors for football, lined up against gambling sponsors, surely the clubs would take the other brands? But they don't. So it suggests that the money isn't there at the same level - surely?

[dandeclaret]

OK, if you want to stick with your first position, BFC will lose shirt sponsorship revenue if we aren't allowed to have betting sponsors...

I don't agree. Shed the "sad image" of football being a betting opportunity and you start to make football a more attractive sponsorship proposition for lots of large, globally ambitious brands.

Why havne't these large globally ambitious brands invested before, when there were very very few GAmbling Companies sponsoring? It's grown by over 50% in 20 years, so why weren't they sponsoring enough to stop gambling companies getting involved?

[DCWat]

The biggest issue for me is the volume of advertisements on the television, all competing for their slice of the pie.

They’ve all got their differently branded subsidiaries aimed at ensuring that there’s potentially something for everyone; bingo, casino, slot machines, sports betting and everything else in between. Turn ITV on in the wee small hours and you’ve either got some dodgy salesman trying to sell you some tat on QVC (or whatever it’s called) or televised roulette!

I’d start by banning betting TV adverts before a certain time and during sporting events before I’d even consider looking at shirt sponsorship, which I think is less of an issue.

There is a great deal to be said for everything becoming too sterile. The fact is that a lot of the things that are fun or nice in life, are in some way or other bad for us and come with an element of risk, be that short or long term.

It’s extreme but Dandy’s point about various advertisement categories is right - where does it stop - you can only advertise a product if it’s proven to do no damage to anyone or anything?

Where betting has crossed the line is volume, not the fact that they’re advertising.

[dandeclaret]

Agree with that point DCWAT - have you seen a change in gambling ads in the last 9 months or so?

In April 2020, those brands who work with the Betting And Gaming council introduced a whistle to whistle ban on advertising (excluding Horse Racing programming), meaning that adverts wouldn't be shown from 5 minutes before an event starts until 5 minutes after it ends, before the watershed.

Did you / others notice this change?

Link here with more details - https://bettingandgamingcouncil.com/new ... y-children .... for those of you who watch Cricket, it's why you're now inundated with Numan erectcile disfunction ads, life insurance policies, BA Data Breach no win no fee cases and teeth straightening ads. I'm just surprised that high end brands, or positive lifestyle brands haven't stepped in.


In other, unconnnected news, it appears Sky can no longer afford the rights for some Test Match Cricket, so the India series looks like it will be on a Disney subscription channel. Sky might have to put the subscriptions prices up now to provide the sport that people want.....

[bf2k]

The world can often be assessed by triangles.... quite often in business it's time, resources, quality (if you want things to happen quicker, without changing resources, then quality will reduce)

In this case you could have "Personal Beliefs", Finance, Club Strength

In personal beliefs, one of the items you can have, could be Gambling / Supportive or Against. If you lock in against on that, then it's going to change the point of the triangle on finance - because it's going to remove gambling sponsorship from the finance, and clearly no other sponsors pay as much for mid tier prem sides deals, so this will reduce the finances.

This then gives you 2 options.

Number 1 - you fill that finance gap from somewhere else - TV Money is fixed in the main, so you have to look at other options, with the biggest opportunities being player sales, or increased match day revenue (from a fairly fixed base of around 20,000 people).

Number 2 - Club Strength - if you can't fill the finance gap, then the money you can invest reduces, so either the wages need to reduce, transfer budgets need to reduce or things like training ground /academy / ground developments will need to be scaled back.

So when Alan Pace states "I can promise it will be reviewed as part of the overall commercial strategy for the club." the above is likely to be some of the elements of that commercial strategy.

So..... How do you want them to change the triangle? Don't tell me you want to increase the ground by 10,000, or do more corporate hospitality etc - they are all growth items to push the club forward. How do you want them to fill the gap using current resources available.

You're talking about the "Good, Cheap & Fast" Venn Diagram. We use this a lot to remind customers they can't have all 3.

GCFVD.jpg (31.82 KiB) Viewed 887 times

I'm of the belief the game should be banning certain types of advertising to, lets be honest, protect the weak & impressionable. It's the countried most watched sport. We're constantly told the players are role models and the impressionable learn & take example from these role models. Why shouldn't a club be held in the same light?

If I think I understand your argument correct you don't want to compromise quality because the club won't have the finances to compete. If that's the case I think the game needs to look at its morals. It shouldn't need to rely on this type of income to keep it's quality up. They would be uproar if we were sponsored by a Dutch cannabis manufacturer. What's the difference between that or an alcohol or tabaco companies sponsorship? Extreme example I know but it gets my point across. The game is held on such a pedestal within society it needs to set & maintain social standards.

If finances are the issue, the vast majority of the finances are needed to pay the players wages. Simple answer, pay less on wages and implement controls on players wages. That's not going to happen and that's the route cause of the problem.

[Mala591]

I’ve designed a shirt logo for a major Burnley employer

~~~~~BooHoo.com~~~~~
We the minimum wage
We hate trade unions

[dandeclaret]

You're talking about the "Good, Cheap & Fast" Venn Diagram. We use this a lot to remind customers they can't have all 3.

GCFVD.jpg

I'm of the belief the game should be banning certain types of advertising to, lets be honest, protect the weak & impressionable. It's the countried most watched sport. We're constantly told the players are role models and the impressionable learn & take example from these role models. Why shouldn't a club be held in the same light?

If I think I understand your argument correct you don't want to compromise quality because the club won't have the finances to compete. If that's the case I think the game needs to look at its morals. It shouldn't need to rely on this type of income to keep it's quality up. They would be uproar if we were sponsored by a Dutch cannabis manufacturer. What's the difference between that or an alcohol or tabaco companies sponsorship? Extreme example I know but it gets my point across. The game is held on such a pedestal within society it needs to set & maintain social standards.

If finances are the issue, the vast majority of the finances are needed to pay the players wages. Simple answer, pay less on wages and implement controls on players wages. That's not going to happen and that's the route cause of the problem.

Constantly told by lazy people that players are role models. Marcus Rashford is a role model, because of his morals. Closer to home Jay is a Role Model, because of his work with Pendleside Hospice and his openness to support people. Jack Grealish is no more of a role model than Liam Gallagher was as a youngster. Being good at your job doesn't make you a role model.

The difference between being sponsored by a Legal Gambling company, and an illegal drug company, should be fairly obvious. As far as I know, it's not illegal for Alcohol brands to sponsor in the premier league, they and the clubs have chosen not to enter into partnerships.

Finally, if you think that the only moralistic issue with football is accepting sponsorship money from legalised gambling companies, when there are players regularly cheating and diving on the pitch and off it drink driving, pictured with prostitutes, unable to adhere to Covid guidelines, issues with fans with racism widespread in the stands, agents taking billions out of the game, the trafficking of young footballers from Africa into Europe, homophobia and sexism so widespread that people are unwilling to be open about their sexuality for fear of reprisals..... and you think that if gambling sponsors pay more than other legal businesses to sponsor shirts, that that is the point that morals are brought into question? Then fair play, you're more comfortable with the sport than I am.

[bf2k]

Constantly told by lazy people that players are role models. Marcus Rashford is a role model, because of his morals. Closer to home Jay is a Role Model, because of his work with Pendleside Hospice and his openness to support people. Jack Grealish is no more of a role model than Liam Gallagher was as a youngster. Being good at your job doesn't make you a role model.

For the record I agree. I don't subscribe to the notion they are role models but unfortunately society (and by that I mostly mean the media) do hold them up there. Young kids look up to them. My son raves about Grealish, Rashford, Kane, etc but with the media focus on these players its inevitable that a 7 year is going to pick up on these players. So when Grealish is in the media for the wrong reasons he picks up on that as well.

The difference between being sponsored by a Legal Gambling company, and an illegal drug company, should be fairly obvious. As far as I know, it's not illegal for Alcohol brands to sponsor in the premier league, they and the clubs have chosen not to enter into partnerships.

I did say it was an extreme example and probably a silly one but morally my point is valid. A lot of people are effected by gambling and it is a social problem. I don't know the comparable figures between people affected by gambling or drugs or alcohol but I would hazard a guess that they are comparable.

Finally, if you think that the only moralistic issue with football is accepting sponsorship money from legalised gambling companies, when there are players regularly cheating and diving on the pitch and off it drink driving, pictured with prostitutes, unable to adhere to Covid guidelines, issues with fans with racism widespread in the stands, agents taking billions out of the game, the trafficking of young footballers from Africa into Europe, homophobia and sexism so widespread that people are unwilling to be open about their sexuality for fear of reprisals..... and you think that if gambling sponsors pay more than other legal businesses to sponsor shirts, that that is the point that morals are brought into question? Then fair play, you're more comfortable with the sport than I am.

I didn't say it was the only moralistic issue. There are plenty more, but gambling is the thread topic.
Players drinking, pictured with prostitutes, unable to adhere to Covid guidelines??? Too much money at a very young age. Goes back to my point that they are paid far too much. However, I would say this is a lack of support from the clubs/agents/parents at a young age.
Trafficking of young footballers from Africa into Europe??? Are you for real??? Are you seriously saying this country are blindly allowing this to happen?
Racism, homophobia and sexism??? Really? Any worse than any other industry?

[dandeclaret]

I did say it was an extreme example and probably a silly one but morally my point is valid. A lot of people are effected by gambling and it is a social problem. I don't know the comparable figures between people affected by gambling or drugs or alcohol but I would hazard a guess that they are comparable.



I didn't say it was the only moralistic issue. There are plenty more, but gambling is the thread topic.
Players drinking, pictured with prostitutes, unable to adhere to Covid guidelines??? Too much money at a very young age. Goes back to my point that they are paid far too much. However, I would say this is a lack of support from the clubs/agents/parents at a young age.
Trafficking of young footballers from Africa into Europe??? Are you for real??? Are you seriously saying this country are blindly allowing this to happen?
Racism, homophobia and sexism??? Really? Any worse than any other industry?

Gambling and Alcohol are not comparable to drugs, as they are legal, whereas drugs are not.

And yes, I think racism and homophobia are far worse in football than the vast majority of other sports. I haven't seen a white lives matter plane fly over other sports grounds, I've not seen issues like Suarez, Terry, Andre Gray and others regularly in other sports, so yes, I think it's far worse - perception wise at least - and that's what's going to matter to advertisers - far more than if there's gambling adverts in football.

[Paul Waine]

Why havne't these large globally ambitious brands invested before, when there were very very few GAmbling Companies sponsoring? It's grown by over 50% in 20 years, so why weren't they sponsoring enough to stop gambling companies getting involved?

Why not previously? I'd suggest it's because football is not a clean sponsorship opportunity with the significant presence of betting sponsorship.

And, why not before gambling companies? Football has grown in international profile in recent years, as we have seen with more and more English football clubs taken over by overseas owners.

[basil6345789]

Supermarkets.

[IanMcL]

Amazon!

[DCWat]

Agree with that point DCWAT - have you seen a change in gambling ads in the last 9 months or so?

In April 2020, those brands who work with the Betting And Gaming council introduced a whistle to whistle ban on advertising (excluding Horse Racing programming), meaning that adverts wouldn't be shown from 5 minutes before an event starts until 5 minutes after it ends, before the watershed.

Did you / others notice this change?

Link here with more details - https://bettingandgamingcouncil.com/new ... y-children .... for those of you who watch Cricket, it's why you're now inundated with Numan erectcile disfunction ads, life insurance policies, BA Data Breach no win no fee cases and teeth straightening ads. I'm just surprised that high end brands, or positive lifestyle brands haven't stepped in.


In other, unconnnected news, it appears Sky can no longer afford the rights for some Test Match Cricket, so the India series looks like it will be on a Disney subscription channel. Sky might have to put the subscriptions prices up now to provide the sport that people want.....

Thanks for that, Dande.

I must admit to not noticing - in my mind, I’ve been as bombarded as ever by adverts although I rarely spend much time watching the build up and post match stuff, so to someone like me, these changes wouldn’t be noticeable.

[evensteadiereddie]

Just to change tack a little bit, the WBA Sunday League style shirt does make me laugh.

download (1).jpg (8.45 KiB) Viewed 723 times

[dandeclaret]

Why not previously? I'd suggest it's because football is not a clean sponsorship opportunity with the significant presence of betting sponsorship.

And, why not before gambling companies? Football has grown in international profile in recent years, as we have seen with more and more English football clubs taken over by overseas owners.

Horse racing can pull in premium sponsors, despite being much more involved with gambling than football, but football can't...... and you think that is because of the impact of having gambling adverts?

[superdimitri]

Formula one was definitely effected by the advertising ban. Teams don't make anywhere near as much as they used too.

The betting shirt sponsors are there for the Chinese market, not the UK. To improve the situation in the UK they'd need to ban the advertising from bookmakers popular here, not China.

[Paul Waine]

Horse racing can pull in premium sponsors, despite being much more involved with gambling than football, but football can't...... and you think that is because of the impact of having gambling adverts?

Sorry, I'm not up to speed with horse racing. Derby on Epsom Downs, Royal Ascot, Grand National, Kempton Park on boxing day, Cheltenham Festival. Are they all broadcast worldwide? Do sponsors sign up to sponsor multi-year seasons?

The Olympics pulls in premium sponsors. Big global event every 4 years (when no covid-19). How big are the betting sponsors in the Olympics?

[dibraidio]

I read that Adidas pay Manchester United 75 million a year to manufacture and sell their shirts under license. They estimate that they make 150m a year from selling the shirts. That's on top of the 60 million a year that Man Utd get from Chevrolet. Add those two together and you've got the same amount of money coming in as we get from the TV deals.

Of course Burnley sell shirts exclusively through the club shop which is a method that's closer to non-league than champions league.

[wilks_bfc]

I read that Adidas pay Manchester United 75 million a year to manufacture and sell their shirts under license. They estimate that they make 150m a year from selling the shirts. That's on top of the 60 million a year that Man Utd get from Chevrolet. Add those two together and you've got the same amount of money coming in as we get from the TV deals.

Of course Burnley sell shirts exclusively through the club shop which is a method that's closer to non-league than champions league.

I’ve never understood why we have restricted the shirt sales to just from the club shop. I’m assuming it’s so all the profit made is kept in house, but to me that is another example of the short sightedness the club has on certain aspects.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see that stance change now the new owners are in

[dandeclaret]

Sorry, I'm not up to speed with horse racing. Derby on Epsom Downs, Royal Ascot, Grand National, Kempton Park on boxing day, Cheltenham Festival. Are they all broadcast worldwide? Do sponsors sign up to sponsor multi-year seasons?

The Olympics pulls in premium sponsors. Big global event every 4 years (when no covid-19). How big are the betting sponsors in the Olympics?

Not big, because the betting turnover on athletics is minuscule. It’s not a core market for the gambling companies, not will it ever be.

[claret2018]

When tobacco advertising was banned the tobacco companies loved it, because they no longer had to spend vast fortunes on keeping up with the competition on advertising.

The prevalence of betting in football is absolutely ridiculous now. If you watch a match on Sky you are bombarded with adverts before, during and after the game, and being updated on the latest odds. I don’t gamble because it’s a complete waste of money and I get no thrill from the minute prospect of winning a couple of hundred quid once every blue moon.

For me, the sooner betting becomes less entrenched in the sport the better. When I was young it was seen as something only disheveled blokes did in the run down bookmakers, let’s hope it’s image goes back to that.

[Chester Perry]

Horse racing can pull in premium sponsors, despite being much more involved with gambling than football, but football can't...... and you think that is because of the impact of having gambling adverts?

Horse racing is specifically built for the gambling market, the whole structure of rules and regulations in Horse racing is to build confidence that it is not subject to fraudulent activity and it is policed quite firmly and openly in order to establish that confidence, the other kind of sponsors it attracts is largely down to the wealth demographic of those that major events - that of course has changed enormously given the sights at what are often euphemistically called ladies days, but your Ascots etc still tend to draw people with serious wealth

[dandeclaret]

Horse racing is specifically built for the gambling market, the whole structure of rules and regulations in Horse racing is to build confidence that it is not subject to fraudulent activity and it is policed quite firmly and openly in order to establish that confidence, the other kind of sponsors it attracts is largely down to the wealth demographic of those that major events - that of course has changed enormously given the sights at what are often euphemistically called ladies days, but your Ascots etc still tend to draw people with serious wealth

Which only further strengthens the points I’ve raised, that premium sponsors aren’t getting involved because of the fact that there are gambling advertisers. Public perception is also strongly in favour of football being perceived as a straighter sport than horse racing.

[Chester Perry]

Which only further strengthens the points I’ve raised, that premium sponsors aren’t getting involved because of the fact that there are gambling advertisers. Public perception is also strongly in favour of football being perceived as a straighter sport than horse racing.

point 1 agree, no question
point 2 not quite so sure, football has been reactive to much about betting markets, Horse racing determines what the betting markets are and sets the rules to maintain trust and faith

[Herts Clarets]

I read that Adidas pay Manchester United 75 million a year to manufacture and sell their shirts under license. They estimate that they make 150m a year from selling the shirts. That's on top of the 60 million a year that Man Utd get from Chevrolet. Add those two together and you've got the same amount of money coming in as we get from the TV deals.

Of course Burnley sell shirts exclusively through the club shop which is a method that's closer to non-league than champions league.

A classic example of our corner shop mentality. If you want to buy one of our shirts you either:

1. Live within travelling distance of Turf Moor
2. Be aware of the shirt and negotiate the poorly designed website and all the hurdles that poses to make a purchase

Meanwhile most other clubs in the Premier League have their shirts on sale in Sports Direct, JD Sports and the like. Whilst we are never going to have the pull of a Liverpool or Man Utd for selling shirts, we could at least try to increase the sales through better distribution of what must be a profitable item. You would hope this is one of the areas that a savvy owner would identify and try to expand upon.