Interesting quote from Lee Grant about Sean Dyche’s early days at Turf Moor...

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:33 am

Taken from an article on The Athletic. Lee Grant talking about something to do with Burnley...

“That is probably one of the strengths now of Manchester United. We have such a strong squad, we are in a position where we are having to leave good players at home and that can be really difficult. It’s key for any top team that the players who are on the periphery toe the line because I’ve seen at other clubs what can happen otherwise. I’ve seen it when negativity comes in and sucks the energy out of the dressing room.”

Grant tells a story to illustrate his point, going back to his time at Burnley and Sean Dyche’s first week at Turf Moor.

“One of the first things Sean did was hand each of us a sheet of paper. He said he wanted to know from every player, anonymously, how many players there were in the dressing room who were… not snakes, perhaps, but capable of damaging the team spirit because they had a toxic attitude. ‘How many players have I got who are going to be a negative influence?’ he said. ‘I don’t want their names, just the number. Then leave the rest to me’.

“We all wrote down a number — some of the lads might have said one, some might have said 10 — and then he collected them in. He came back with the average score and said, ‘Right, I think there are two lads in here who are poisonous to the group and now it’s my job to find out who they are and weed them out’. And, as you can imagine, Sean didn’t waste much time on that front. It was a huge thing for him not to have that negativity in the dressing room.”

Who were they I wonder?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:34 am

Just spotted this. Not sure if this is common knowledge or not; I'd not heard it before but it's not a surprise.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... squad.html

Papabendi · Post by **Papabendi** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:36 am

Lee was one of them and subsequently extricated

Zlatan · Post by **Zlatan** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:39 am

Who were the toxic players then? I’m struggling to think who they were

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:39 am

Jason Shackell must surely be a suspect?

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:40 am

My guess would be two of:

Brian Jensen
Chris McCann
Martin Paterson
David Edgar

Purely based on who was in that squad then, I think

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:41 am

ZizkovClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:39 am
Jason Shackell must surely be a suspect?

Possibly but I think he played a fair bit under Dyche before I think he ran down his contract rather than getting shipped out perse

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:43 am

Wasn't Shackell captain for our first promotion?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:44 am

Could've been more if it wasn't for Howe.

Well done to Dyche though.

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:46 am

I think Dyche has also thanked Shackell for his service publicly after he left...possibly on one of those season ending videos, so doubt it would be him

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:47 am

Exactly how you should join a new club as manager...keeps everyone on their toes straight away. Part of the genius that is Dyche tbh because it also creates a bond by getting everyone involved in the process in a way, whilst fully emphasising the team as the most important thing.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:47 am

Junior Stanislas?

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:48 am

The article suggests Lee Grant was released but I don' t think that's the case, he was offered a deal but turned it down to sign for Derby.

What I do remember is a friend of mine having spoken to Kieran Trippier and him saying the dressing room was toxic but I got the impression it was because of the money situation at the club with players being offered lesser deals. We all recall that both Dean Marney & Ross Wallace were the two players to accept lesser offers while Grant and Martin Paterson didn't.

The only players I can recall being released by Dyche at the end of that season were Chris McCann and Brian Jensen.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:51 am

Marvin Bartley and Brian Stock are also possibilities. Maybe Keith Treacy though if it were him he got supported and helped rather than cast aside.

Bartley and Stock were shipped out/let go quickly.

From memory, Lee Grant, Martin Paterson, Chris McCann, Dean Marney were all offered contracts but at reduced wages. Only Marney* signed and he reaped the benefits in more way than one. I’m sure the promotion bonus more than offset the wage reduction.

*edit - and Ross Wallace as CT has pointed out.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:52 am

It certainly wasn't Jason Shackell, unless Dyche decided he liked his sort of negativity so much he retained him as club captain for 2 and a half years.

matttheclaret · Post by **matttheclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:52 am

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:48 am
The article suggests Lee Grant was released but I don' t think that's the case, he was offered a deal but turned it down to sign for Derby.

Glad Grant did turn it down.

I always thought he was a decent keeper, certainly light years ahead of Jensen, but if he'd stayed, we probably wouldn't have signed Heaton, who was a massive improvement on what we'd had for years.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:53 am

ZizkovClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:39 am
Jason Shackell must surely be a suspect?

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:40 am
My guess would be two of:

Brian Jensen
Chris McCann
Martin Paterson
David Edgar

Purely based on who was in that squad then, I think

I know very few of the players had any time for Shackell but I don't think it would be him because he played for a further two years after that until he downed tools to get his move back to Derby. Edgar was also with us for a further year but again it's not easy to get rid of players who are out of contract, although Dyche did so with Marvin Bartley by terminating his deal.

Jensen & McCann are the two I mentioned further up the thread. I'm not saying they were the toxic players or not but they were both released.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:54 am

Ive seen him talk about this in a podcast. It’s basically an anonymous questionnaire he gave to all the players.

He told them was the only opportunity to let the management know what they thought and they could fill it out properly... or not, it was up to them.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:55 am

matttheclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:52 am
Glad Grant did turn it down.

I always thought he was a decent keeper, certainly light years ahead of Jensen, but if he'd stayed, we probably wouldn't have signed Heaton, who was a massive improvement on what we'd had for years.

I think the plan was always for Heaton to come in. Dyche was signing him for Watford a year earlier until he got the sack and he wanted him. I think that potentially forced Grant's hand to move back to Derby presuming he'd no longer be first choice at Burnley.

Hibsclaret · Post by **Hibsclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:56 am

There’s definitely a very big difference between being disliked (but respected) and being toxic.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:58 am

From what I’m led to believe there wasn’t much of a fight put up by management to keep our top scorer at the club.

matttheclaret · Post by **matttheclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:00 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:58 am
From what I’m led to believe there wasn’t much of a fight put up by management to keep our top scorer at the club.

Was a strange one with Austin. He was a brilliant player for us and probably the best finisher I've seen play for us. Wasn't our record a lot better when he didn't play though?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:02 pm

This sounds like a classic manager trick.

Get all the squad thinking 'is it me?' Do the group think it's me?

Sure way to get all the players to improve their attitude.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:03 pm

Hibsclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:56 am
There’s definitely a very big difference between being disliked (but respected) and being toxic.

Very much so and I wouldn't have thought it would be Shackell given he remained as captain and didn't leave until 2015. Dyche wouldn't have allowed that had he been toxic. I was told by a few people that he was very aloof and didn't engage with the other players.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:25 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:02 pm
This sounds like a classic manager trick.

Get all the squad thinking 'is it me?' Do the group think it's me?

Sure way to get all the players to improve their attitude.

This is certainly a large part of it. The exercise could potentially work to improve attitude even if there were no “toxic” players.

But it also work if there are.

And Dyche announcing that there were “one of two” toxic players in the squad doesn’t necessarily make it true.

Whatever the truth behind it we’re unlikely to ever know for sure.

However it worked out, it was a master stroke from Dyche. We all saw the results on the pitch. The team spirit shone through the next year.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:42 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:25 pm
This is certainly a large part of it. The exercise could potentially work to improve attitude even if there were no “toxic” players.

But it also work if there are.

And Dyche announcing that there were “one of two” toxic players in the squad doesn’t necessarily make it true.

Whatever the truth behind it we’re unlikely to ever know for sure.

However it worked out, it was a master stroke from Dyche. We all saw the results on the pitch. The team spirit shone through the next year.

Brendan Rodgers used to do similar with the 'I've got 2 envelopes here with 2 players names in that I think will let me down this season'.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:10 pm

I went to a Q and A with SD and he did talk about the questionnaire, he didn’t mention this issue but he talked about asking questions about where the club was good and where it was bad. What were the areas the team felt it was weak on the pitch.

He then went about correcting the issues the team said were there.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:10 pm

McCann and Austin let themselves down off the pitch and the rest of the squad were fully aware of it

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:16 pm

matttheclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:00 pm
Was a strange one with Austin. He was a brilliant player for us and probably the best finisher I've seen play for us. Wasn't our record a lot better when he didn't play though?

Weirdly yes it was better, but at a guess the team had to work harder without him in it, whereas when he was playing they just kept using him as plan A and didn't have a plan B.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:47 am

Interesting reading

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... squad.html

dansch · Post by **dansch** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:15 am

I wonder who were the bad eggs. Of first team players leaving early in his tenure could potentially be Martin Paterson, Alex Macdonald, Brian Stock...?

Wellsy1882 · Post by **Wellsy1882** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:22 am

He was.one

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:23 am

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52907

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:24 am

Didn't see original thread, apologies. Mods merge if possible.

Red Fox Rocks Socks · Post by **Red Fox Rocks Socks** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:27 am

joey13 wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:10 pm
McCann and Austin let themselves down off the pitch and the rest of the squad were fully aware of it

What were they up to?

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:40 am

matttheclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:00 pm
Was a strange one with Austin. He was a brilliant player for us and probably the best finisher I've seen play for us. Wasn't our record a lot better when he didn't play though?

Massive example of how “stats” can tell a different story. It’s a result based business so I suppose you can’t argue with it.

I think most on here would agree Austin was a very good natural finisher, and I certainly felt confident we’d score when he played. He always came across to me as a bit of a “lad” tho... rumours were rife in his time here about his alleged use of “recreational mood enhancers”. If that’s the talk of the town, it would most certainly be the talk of the dressing room, and that’s poisonous in more ways than one.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:35 am

Red Fox Rocks Socks wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:27 am
What were they up to?

It’s well known , but would be deleted on a public messageboard

burnmark · Post by **burnmark** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:42 am

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:51 am
Marvin Bartley and Brian Stock are also possibilities. Maybe Keith Treacy though if it were him he got supported and helped rather than cast aside.

Bartley and Stock were shipped out/let go quickly.

From memory, Lee Grant, Martin Paterson, Chris McCann, Dean Marney were all offered contracts but at reduced wages. Only Marney* signed and he reaped the benefits in more way than one. I’m sure the promotion bonus more than offset the wage reduction.

*edit - and Ross Wallace as CT has pointed out.

Stock stayed for the Promotion season.

Ptangyangkipperbang · Post by **Ptangyangkipperbang** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:50 am

David Edgar was a real jack the lad I used to go to the footballers arms in Summerseat and being a Burnley fan I used to get stick about his antics along with a few other players from that time where they used to frequent along with nights out in Ramsbottom.If believed one of the lads from there told me Edgar was saying Dyche had tears in his eyes when he was told he was being released

Ptangyangkipperbang · Post by **Ptangyangkipperbang** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:50 am

David Edgar was a real jack the lad I used to go to the footballers arms in Summerseat and being a Burnley fan I used to get stick about his antics along with a few other players from that time where they used to frequent along with nights out in Ramsbottom.If believed one of the lads from there told me Edgar was saying Dyche had tears in his eyes when he was told he was being released

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:04 am

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:53 am
I know very few of the players had any time for Shackell but I don't think it would be him because he played for a further two years after that until he downed tools to get his move back to Derby. Edgar was also with us for a further year but again it's not easy to get rid of players who are out of contract, although Dyche did so with Marvin Bartley by terminating his deal.

Jensen & McCann are the two I mentioned further up the thread. I'm not saying they were the toxic players or not but they were both released.

No surprise you've Got Jensen on There.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:07 am

tim_noone wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:04 am
No surprise you've Got Jensen on There.

I haven't got anyone in anywhere - I just listed the players who were released. No surprise you misunderstood.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:22 am

matttheclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:00 pm
Was a strange one with Austin. He was a brilliant player for us and probably the best finisher I've seen play for us. Wasn't our record a lot better when he didn't play though?

I said this to a lad at work last week.
Charlie was a brilliant finisher, but for some reason we played a lot better football without him. Maybe we played more as a team, rather than playing for him, but whatever it was he wasn't missed.

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:04 pm

Under Howe the team was set-up to accommodate Austin - it was one of the reasons he did so well but he was still a great natural finisher

The shape of the team changed without him and undoubtedly under Dyche everybody got fitter and worked harder - plus others started to take more individual responsibility

I'm sure Dyche wasn't sorry to see him go but at the same time he had to realise the best possible price for him given the financial situation and the failed move to Hull

I don't know anything about Marvin Bartley's personality but with no disrespect intended I always thought his early departure was for purely football reasons as he never looked like a Championship standard player

Belial · Post by **Belial** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:23 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:58 am
From what I’m led to believe there wasn’t much of a fight put up by management to keep our top scorer at the club.

They didn't have much choice. Cricket field roof repairs/upgrade being one thing that the money for Austin was needed for

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:20 pm

EarbyClaret wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:04 pm
Under Howe the team was set-up to accommodate Austin - it was one of the reasons he did so well but he was still a great natural finisher

The shape of the team changed without him and undoubtedly under Dyche everybody got fitter and worked harder - plus others started to take more individual responsibility

I'm sure Dyche wasn't sorry to see him go but at the same time he had to realise the best possible price for him given the financial situation and the failed move to Hull

I don't know anything about Marvin Bartley's personality but with no disrespect intended I always thought his early departure was for purely football reasons as he never looked like a Championship standard player

Bartley himself has said he wasn't good enough when at Burnley

bodge · Post by **bodge** » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:25 pm

I can certainly vouch for what the boy kipperbang said up thread, Edgar's antics alongside Kevin McDonald in the Footballers was well known amongst the regulars.