“A blatant power grab” – Fans criticise own clubs on UCL plans

[icu81b4]

Like it or not, Cash is King.

[elwaclaret]

Think they may have finally... finally overdone it and the world of football have to give them a lesson they don’t forget about where their money comes from.

I expect a snivelling excuse to be presented at 9pm... it was just a basis for discussion, we don’t want to harm the domestic game....

Agree with Gary Neville... although he said lots of things. Relegation, fine and a points deduction for next season...

[boatshed bill]

Neville is well wound up by it.
But let's be honest about this; plenty who don't like this super league were perfectly happy when the premier league broke away from the football league. That was wrong at the time, look where it's heading now.

[Stevie2112]

Neville is well wound up by it.
But let's be honest about this; plenty who don't like this super league were perfectly happy when the premier league broke away from the football league. That was wrong at the time, look where it's heading now.

My point exactly BB,can't have your cake and eat it

[DCWat]

Neville is well wound up by it.
But let's be honest about this; plenty who don't like this super league were perfectly happy when the premier league broke away from the football league. That was wrong at the time, look where it's heading now.

The approval benefitted from there being no social media at the time. There was plenty of anti-Premier at league at the time and right where we are now was amongst the primary reasons for being against it.

Its the next stop on the greed train from people who have no love nor understanding of the game and it’s history.

[joey13]

Neville is well wound up by it.
But let's be honest about this; plenty who don't like this super league were perfectly happy when the premier league broke away from the football league. That was wrong at the time, look where it's heading now.

The formation of this European super league is nothing like when the premier league broke away

[Claret]

here is what Neville said
https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/ ... 77569?s=20

and
https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/ ... 59082?s=20

Wow.
Well said Gary.

[JohnMac]

The formation of this European super league is nothing like when the premier league broke away

Agreed, it was just a name change until they reduced it from 22 to 20 Clubs in 1995.

[scouseclaret]

Hilarious watching all the Sky TV pundits expressing their disgust at the greed and self interest underlying the breakaway proposal without a word of acknowledgment that the same forces
Drove the formation of the Premier League.

[Cirrus_Minor]

If this does go ahead I would imagine Sky will be in the running to show it be amongst the ‘media’ coverage and paying a lot into the money trough.

Interesting then to see what what happen to Gary Neville after these passionate comments.

[Chester Perry]

Hilarious watching all the Sky TV pundits expressing their disgust at the greed and self interest underlying the breakaway proposal without a word of acknowledgment that the same forces
Drove the formation of the Premier League.

The thing about the formation of the Premier League is that the Football League turned down a 20% share of revenues in perpetuity and an offer to sell their rights alongside the Premier League - the Football League in their infinite wisdom turned that down and have been left flailing ever since.

There is no sign that the current Super League proposal is offering any such proposal to UEFA, or the leagues

[Grumps]

Wow.
Well said Gary.

Hey, Gary.. Fancy trippling your wages?

Lets see how outspoken he is when offered the gig as a pundit

[taio]

here is what Neville said
https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/ ... 77569?s=20

and
https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/ ... 59082?s=20

Neville is not everyone's cup of tea but all true football fans will get behind what he says in response to these disgraceful proposals.

[diamondpocket]

Spurs - last league title (two titles) 1960/61

Arsenal - last league title 2003/04

Chelsea - last league title 2016/17 (a team with minimal history pre dodgy Russian money)

Liverpool - one league title in 30 years!

Man City - a couple more titles than Burnley pre dodgy Middle Eastern money

Man United - spent £1b since Ferguson left and not a title since.

Does big mean best or does it actually mean wealthiest?

I’d let them have their European league and permanently remove them from all domestic competition, if I had my way.

I’d certainly not be letting them use this threat as some sort of bargaining chip that will gain them any sort of advantage on other teams.

It means who have the biggest international brands. The 2 Milan clubs have done sack all for 10 years. AC Milan have been a nothing clubs for many a year. Inter's last period of success was under Jose, how long ago is that? It is just branding, corporate rubbish. The football is of secondary interest, it's about selling 2 brands a game.

[gandhisflipflop]

The statement should be interesting tonight. I suspect they will play it down and the can gets kicked further down the road until next time. The monster has been growing for the best part of 25 years at least and has been allowed to get bigger and bigger by the very same powers that be who are now furious tonight. Regardless of tonight’s statement they need to curtail this once and for all. Personally I would reform football with the German model, and also scrap the europa and champions league, along with any plans to expand the international competitions and go back to the European cup, fairs cup/uefa cup and cup winners cup format. Keep the World Cup at 32 teams and European championships at 16 teams.

[boatshed bill]

The formation of this European super league is nothing like when the premier league broke away

Except that neither should or should have been allowed to happen.
Against the whole ethos of the football league and why it was originally established.

[claret2018]

Let them crack on with it. I don’t see a single downside for Burnley

[clansman]

Whilst we as fans are nearly 100 per cent against the proposals it would be good if the boards of the other clubs spoke out. That includes ours. If they don’t condemn it they will show they have no real understanding of the importance of football in England and will be seen , if they keep quiet, in being complicit.
Over to you Mr Pace. If our board even half heartedly agreed with these proposals I would have to think very hard about continuing my support for the club.

[boatshed bill]

If the 6 could be persuaded to clear off and completely sever their relationship with english football i'd be all for it.
Also, if the rest of the PL clubs agreed to go back to the pre-PL format, sharing money more fairly through the divisions I'd be doubly delighted.

[Rileybobs]

Let them crack on with it. I don’t see a single downside for Burnley

Really? Not a single downside?

[claret2018]

Really? Not a single downside?

I presume you think the reduction in funds going into the club would be the major downside. I honestly think football in the long run would be better if a lot of the money goes out. We only need £xhundred million turnover to pay ludicrous wages to very average players.

[Hipper]

UEFA statement, partnered with the big leagues

Statement by UEFA, the English Football Association, the Premier League, the Royal Spanish Football Federation (RFEF), LaLiga, the Italian Football Federation (FIGC) and Lega Serie A
Sunday 18 April 2021

UEFA, the English Football Association and the Premier League, the Royal Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) and LaLiga, and the Italian Football Federation (FIGC) and Lega Serie A have learned that a few English, Spanish and Italian clubs may be planning to announce their creation of a closed, so-called Super League.

If this were to happen, we wish to reiterate that we – UEFA, the English FA, RFEF, FIGC, the Premier League, LaLiga, Lega Serie A, but also FIFA and all our member associations - will remain united in our efforts to stop this cynical project, a project that is founded on the self-interest of a few clubs at a time when society needs solidarity more than ever.

We will consider all measures available to us, at all levels, both judicial and sporting in order to prevent this happening. Football is based on open competitions and sporting merit; it cannot be any other way.

As previously announced by FIFA and the six Federations, the clubs concerned will be banned from playing in any other competition at domestic, European or world level, and their players could be denied the opportunity to represent their national teams.

We thank those clubs in other countries, especially the French and German clubs, who have refused to sign up to this. We call on all lovers of football, supporters and politicians, to join us in fighting against such a project if it were to be announced. This persistent self-interest of a few has been going on for too long. Enough is enough.

© 1998-2021 UEFA. All rights reserved.

founded on the self-interest of a few clubs

That's exactly why The Premier League was formed, the self interest of the 'top five' clubs at the time in order to channel most of the new TV money into their pockets. It had nothing to do with sporting merit which was already on offer in the old Football League Division One.

Football is based on open competitions and sporting merit; it cannot be any other way.

It is another way. It is based on money first, more so then ever before. Clubs like Burnley have no chance of winning the Premier League. We judge success as just staying in with the rich boys. In eight years we have hardly progressed and expect relegation in due course. Basically we are here to make up the numbers but are of no real concern to The Premier League itself.

This proposal is something that's been brewing from the days before the Premier League. TV money makes it more feasible. If the big clubs want to do it and it's feasible they will. If FIFA, UEFA, the FA etc. don't approve they probably have enough financial clout to go ahead on their own, forming their own football governing body. If international bans occur then they'll make their own international competition. Money will decide.

[Vegas Claret]

imagine being a supporter that goes to away games and you will be looking at paying 500 quid for every away game, ticket, flights, hotel etc etc

Imagine being Porto or Ajax who have been kings of Europe more than Man City, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal combined and yet won't be in the Super League !!

Utter nonsense

[Colburn_Claret]

you are not paying attention - it is designed to be played alongside the domestic leagues not instead of

It isn't possible to run it alongside the present leagues, not without cutting said leagues to accommodate extra games.

I've long held the belief the sooner they go the better. A premier league without the big 6 would be far more interesting, and entertaining.

If Fifa and Uefa ban players from competing for their countries, would there be many players who opt out of their clubs, or would the money just be too good.

[Rileybobs]

I presume you think the reduction in funds going into the club would be the major downside. I honestly think football in the long run would be better if a lot of the money goes out. We only need £xhundred million turnover to pay ludicrous wages to very average players.

Well obviously in the short term the reduction of funds would pose a major downside. Another downside would be never seeing us compete against some of the best players and clubs in world football. Never seeing us win at Old Trafford, or Anfield.

Then if you step away from how this affects Burnley, I would say that totally ripping apart over a hundred years of a football league structure is a major downside. I would also feel a lot of sympathy for attending supporters of the ‘big six’ clubs who seem to be fairly unanimously opposed to this.

So I see a major downside for Burnley, but more importantly I see a major downside for domestic football in this country.

[taio]

The comparisons to the establishment of the Premier League are all well a good but the main difference is the PL isn't a closed shop. A closed shop fundamentally destroys the integrity of football and fair competition.

[boatshed bill]

The comparisons to the establishment of the Premier League are all well a good but the main difference is the PL isn't a closed shop. A closed shop fundamentally destroys the integrity of football and fair competition.

The comparison is more based on the breakaways destroying the ethics that make a "league"

[CombatClaret]

It flies in the face of sporting competition.

Imagine taking the some of the most famous sprinters of the last decade and having them run a private 100meters every year with no one else allowed to join in.

At the same time thinking somehow 'proper football' like when you were a lad will return if these teams are chucked out and leave with all their riches is equally delusional. All the best players and all the money will still flow toward the top and the only difference is there will be no way for clubs like ours to join, we will just be in the new unescapable second division.

[CombatClaret]

The comparisons to the establishment of the Premier League are all well a good but the main difference is the PL isn't a closed shop. A closed shop fundamentally destroys the integrity of football and fair competition.

A million times this.

[joey13]

Hey, Gary.. Fancy trippling your wages?

Lets see how outspoken he is when offered the gig as a pundit

You really haven’t a clue ,have you

[joey13]

Except that neither should or should have been allowed to happen.
Against the whole ethos of the football league and why it was originally established.

No it wasn’t ,nothing like it

[Bordeauxclaret]

Can’t see many fans of these clubs wanting this.

[Sproggy]

I can't say that watching the usual suspects play out meaningless games for the benefit of a far eastern TV audience holds much appeal. I barely watch the Champions League and this sounds even worse.

[taio]

The comparison is more based on the breakaways destroying the ethics that make a "league"

The most damaging aspect of the proposal is the closed shop nature of it. It's disgusting.

[boatshed bill]

No it wasn’t ,nothing like it

I'm not comparing the two "breakaways" I'm saying that the similarity between the two is that neither should be or should have been allowed to happen.

[NewClaret]

Are they saying the super league will replace the CL or that they’ll just break away and form their own league?

Either way, I’d give them all automatic relegation, kick them from the CL/Europa and ban all their players from the Euros. This type of stuff needs clamping down on and extremely hard.

Not surprising that Madrid are behind it.

[gandhisflipflop]

So if these clubs had their way, they would essentially run a closed shop league alongside the domestic league generating obscene amounts of revenue to get more money to spend and make them stronger in the domestic leagues? How can they even begin to think that this is a good idea

[Clarets4me]

If Fifa and Uefa ban players from competing for their countries, would there be many players who opt out of their clubs, or would the money just be too good ?

We're then into a " Test Cricket " v " IPL " situation ....

[fidelcastro]

So if these clubs had their way, they would essentially run a closed shop league alongside the domestic league generating obscene amounts of revenue to get more money to spend and make them stronger in the domestic leagues? How can they even begin to think that this is a good idea

And you can bet the managers of these clubs will be the first to say they play too many games!

[fidelcastro]

Thinking about it... is this similar to when darts' players formed they're breakaway organisation?

I know darts isn't as high profile, but still.

[JohnMcGreal]

I presume you think the reduction in funds going into the club would be the major downside. I honestly think football in the long run would be better if a lot of the money goes out. We only need £xhundred million turnover to pay ludicrous wages to very average players.

It's not just wages. There's now a substantial debt leveraged against the club which needs to be serviced, and as far as I can tell, the only way that debt gets serviced is via our very generous TV rights deal. If we were to lose a big chunk of that money, it would be easy to see us in a lot of trouble, financially. Along with many other clubs.

[Clarets4me]

We're then into a " Test Cricket " v " IPL " situation ....

Talking of which, somewhere in a very opulent faux-palace in Pune, India, the Venkys are thinking " No relegation ? Now where have we heard that before ? "

[Chester Perry]

It's not just wages. There's now a substantial debt leveraged against the club which needs to be serviced, and as far as I can tell, the only way that debt gets serviced is via our very generous TV rights deal. If we were to lose a big chunk of that money, it would be easy to see us in a lot of trouble, financially. Along with many other clubs.

and possibly well over 100 jobs of people that work at the club

[Chester Perry]

Statement from Football Supporters Europe

FSE CONDEMNS EUROPEAN SUPER LEAGUE PLANS

Along with the overwhelming majority of fans, Football Supporters Europe (FSE) is wholly opposed to plans to create a breakaway super league.

This closed shop competition will be the final nail in the coffin of European football, forsaking everything that has made it so popular and successful—sporting merit, promotion and relegation, qualification to UEFA competitions via domestic success, and financial solidarity.

It is illegitimate, irresponsible, and anti-competitive by design.

More to the point, it is driven exclusively by greed. The only ones who stand to gain are hedge funds, oligarchs, and a handful of already wealthy clubs, many of which perform poorly in their own domestic leagues despite their inbuilt advantage.

Enough is enough.

FSE calls on football’s governing bodies to act immediately to protect the European game: first, by imposing sanctions on breakaway clubs; and second, by scrapping proposals to reform UEFA club competitions, which were designed to benefit the same clubs.

[Chester Perry]

This is a good summary of the situation from Gabriel MArcotti - including why it would be potentially difficult to exclude these clubs from domestic competitions - you can safely assume that they have taken legal advice on the matter and that any legal wranglings may take years to resolve with a staus quo in the meantime and the games authorities outspent on the legal front

UEFA and leagues vow to fight breakaway European Super League: What this means

6:43 PM BST
Gabriele Marcotti Senior Writer, ESPN FC

On Sunday, the European game was rocked by revelations that a number of leading clubs -- anywhere from 12 to 15 -- had either signed an agreement or expressed interest in joining a breakaway league that would effectively be a direct competitor for the UEFA Champions League. Among them are Manchester United, Real Madrid, Liverpool, Juventus and Barcelona.

It's not the first time such rumours have emerged, but the timing is what makes this situation different.


On Monday, UEFA are expected to approve changes to the Champions League that will include an expanded format, more games and tweaks to the revenue distribution. These changes were agreed only on Friday after protracted negotiations with Europe's leading clubs and the European Club Association (ECA). (They also voted to approve it, sources told ESPN.) All of this would now be overshadowed -- and rendered potentially meaningless -- if Europe's biggest clubs renege on that agreement and are really ready to walk out as early as 2022, as some have reported.

The implications, though, go far beyond this. UEFA isn't merely a competition organizer; it's a confederation whose job is to redistribute revenue and develop the game across the continent. The Champions League is its biggest cash cow, and a severely weakened competition would have a serious impact on the sport throughout Europe, which is part of the reason one UEFA executive told ESPN they were prepared to "fight until the end."

Q: Haven't we been here before? Didn't you write back in October about how we were ripe for this sort of change? https://www.espn.com/football/uefa-cham ... ons-league

A: I did, but it appeared that the genie went back in the bottle during the ECA's negotiations with UEFA over the expanded Champions League. The ECA wanted more teams and more games (to generate more revenue); they also wanted more governance and oversight over how the Champions League is run commercially, and they wanted changes to the revenue distribution. It took a long time -- originally, UEFA were hoping to announce this reformatting last month -- and it was a tough negotiation, but at the eleventh hour late on Friday, the ECA hammered out a deal with UEFA. So you can imagine that when UEFA found out the potential breakaway on Sunday, they weren't best pleased ... especially since ECA president Andrea Agnelli also happens to be the Juventus president. And Juventus are reportedly one of the signatories to this deal.

Q: How would the new Super League work, anyway?

A: Details are still sketchy -- there are different versions of this floating around, and all of it subject to negotiations. But for it to work, you'd imagine up to 20 teams playing each other regularly, most likely with a league format followed by playoffs. But more than the format, what matters here is that the clubs would not be playing in the UEFA Champions League and would, instead, share the revenue among themselves. That's a huge departure from the basic model of European team competitions, in any sport, which is obviously different from the models used in American sports.

Q: How so?

A: Take the NBA as an example. There are 30 teams, and each owner is effectively a shareholder in the league. They split the revenues among themselves and put in salary caps and luxury taxes to stay profitable. They don't need to ask USA Basketball or FIBA (basketball's equivalent of FIFA) for permission when they want to do things.

But in European football, clubs play in national leagues that are sanctioned by national federations. In England, the Football Association sanctions the Premier League, and UEFA is a governing body of which the FA is a member that organises competitions for clubs. The bulk of the revenue generated goes back to the clubs, but the rest gets redistributed among national federations, smaller clubs and for grassroots development.

Q: And the breakaway clubs have a problem with this?

A: There's no question that the "breakaway clubs" generate a disproportionate amount of the revenue. After all, more people (and sponsors) will pay to see Barcelona vs. Manchester United than Dinamo Zagreb vs. Club Brugge. They argue they should be entitled to a bigger piece of the pie (and have been arguing this for years, progressively getting more and more). But some also question why revenues that they generate should be redistributed to smaller clubs and FAs. And they say it's about votes and keeping the gravy train going, which to some degree is true. There are more small federations than big ones, and some of the smaller ones would struggle to survive without UEFA funding.

A number of the breakaway clubs also feel that if they ran the competition themselves, they could be more agile and innovative in generating more revenue, perhaps by playing on weekends or taking it on the road to Asia or North America. After all, these are global brands.

I guess it comes down to whether you view a football club primarily as a business to be grown and whose revenues ought to be maximized, or whether you see yourself as part of a greater whole, with a duty of solidarity to others. As I see it, the former is somewhat short-sighted. After all, the next great Real Madrid or Manchester United star could come from Moldova or Northern Ireland, but if there's no functioning FA there because grassroots funding has been pulled, well ...

Q: So what happens Monday?

A: UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin basically has two options. The vote on the Champions League reform is on the agenda. He can cave in and remove it from the agenda. This would kick the can down the road, and probably lead to more negotiations with the big clubs -- this time, presumably, without the ECA, since we saw how far it got them last time -- and perhaps more concessions in their favour, maybe a greater share of revenue or direct control over the competition or guaranteed places or whatever.

Or he can stand tall and call their bluff. Approve the Champions League format, call them out by name. They issued a joint statement with the English, Spanish and Italian Football Associations as well as the Premier League, Italy's Serie A and La Liga in Spain saying they will "remain united" in their efforts to stop "a cynical project" that is "founded on the self-interest of a few clubs." And they reminded everyone that clubs joining a breakaway league would be banned from playing both international competitions, like the World Cup, and domestic leagues as well.

Q: Wow, that's extreme. So if, say, Manchester United broke away, they couldn't play in the Premier League, FA Cup or League Cup?

A: In theory, yes. They have the power to do that, though it would likely end up in court. There's a legal case to be made that if you're a governing body and a competition organiser (which FIFA, UEFA and the FAs are), you can't exclude somebody from participating. So that part remains to be seen. But I think their best strategy, if they want to stop it, is to wait it out ...

Q: What do you mean?

A: For a start, even though 2022 has been mooted for the inaugural "breakaway season," I don't see how they can make it happen. Even if they're somehow not kicked out of their domestic leagues, there are a bunch of legal and regulatory hurdles that clubs need to jump through.

At clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern and Borussia Dortmund (the two German clubs haven't signed on to this, but a breakaway without them is hard to imagine) they would be subject to member votes. They're rumoured to have big financial backing and a global deal in place with a broadcaster (not ESPN), but would that be enough to offset potential losses in the short term?

More broadly, I just don't know that the appetite is there from fans closest to the clubs -- the people who go week in, week out.

Q: But isn't the game global?

A: It is, but the reality is that clubs generate more revenue from the creatures of habit who trudge down to the stadium every week than they do from equally passionate fans halfway around the world. In Germany and England especially, there is bound to be a backlash.

Right now, stadiums are closed, but fans will be back before the end of the season at, say, Old Trafford. The Glazers aren't exactly popular there; imagine if their own supporters let them know just what they think of the idea. Optics matter. Unless the breakaway owners can convince them that this is about something other than personal greed, it's going to be very rough for them.

I'll leave you with this quote released today from Sir Alex Ferguson, somebody whose Manchester United credentials are unimpeachable: "Talk of a super league is a move away from 70 years of European club football. Both as a player for a provincial team in Dunfermline in the 1960s and as a manager at Aberdeen winning the European Cup Winners Cup."

"For a small provincial club in Scotland it was like climbing Mount Everest. Everton are spending £500m to build a new stadium with the ambition to play in the Champions League. Fans all over love the competition as it is."

[Chester Perry]

This is the warning from 2 years back

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/56795800

[boatshed bill]

Savage and Sutton in phone-in about this on 5 live.
Some interesting opinions.

[Chester Perry]

This is an intriguing statement from the ECA - many of it's board members are representatives of clubs said to have agreed to the super league (a number are also UEFA council and executive committee members)

https://twitter.com/ECAEurope/status/13 ... 30/photo/1

It seems the ECA website is currently experiencing problems as I cannot load it can you www.ecaeurope.com

[bobinho]

Neville is well wound up by it.
But let's be honest about this; plenty who don't like this super league were perfectly happy when the premier league broke away from the football league. That was wrong at the time, look where it's heading now.

Merely a renaming exercise.

The European super league is something far more sinister....

[Burnley Ace]

Introduce a windfall tax on all clubs playing in this competition, it would be a vote winner!