Saints red card

[duncandisorderly]

Tony, there are quite a number in the refereeing fraternity who see Jones as a leading light and forecasting that he will be one of the best with a bit more experience. They thought his performance last night was very good.
This, along with a number of other things in the pipeline, prompted me to say that we are getting nearer and nearer to a sport where every contact is penalised one way or another.
We have seen two instances this week where a defender doing his job has been dismissed because they actually kicked the ball. Nick Pope had a penalty given against him because he played the ball. Several other defenders have had free kicks given against them and received cautions because ----they kicked the ball!
We are playing a game called football, however, it would seem that the least acceptable part of the game is to actually put a foot to the ball.
I have had enough of this sterile game at the top level.

It's easier to make contact a free kick than try and decide if there is enough contact for a free kick. You take the subjectivity away, so if a ref blows for a free kick every time there is contact then he is correct. If he doesn't blow even though there is contact then he is wrong.
The laws of the game are worded to allow for such ambiguity (e.g trips, or attempts to trip...)

[Ashingtonclaret46]

It's easier to make contact a free kick than try and decide if there is enough contact for a free kick. You take the subjectivity away, so if a ref blows for a free kick every time there is contact then he is correct. If he doesn't blow even though there is contact then he is wrong.
The laws of the game are worded to allow for such ambiguity (e.g trips, or attempts to trip...)

Just wondering at which level you referee.

[duncandisorderly]

That's not very nice.
I was actually agreeing with you.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

That's not very nice.
I was actually agreeing with you.

Duncan --it was a genuine question, just out of interest ------because you made it seem so simple which, of course, it isn't and it has been made more difficult with the advent of VAR, using slow motion and getting the opinions of 'pundits' etc., etc.

[duncandisorderly]

That's what I'm saying - they are making it simple by punishing the things you complained about.

If a referee is given the guidance of 'if there is contact and a player goes down you can blow for a free kick' then that is what the referee will do, and the laws of the game support that interpretation. Once the game is over the ref will be assessed and come out well.
Whereas before the ref had to determine things like intent and use of force and so on, now they don't need to.

A ref can blow for a free kick and, as long as there is contact, he cannot be incorrect.
If there is contact and he doesn't blow for a free kick, he can be wrong.

Red cards, excessive force, violent conduct and all that are a different issue - but the ref yesterday saw that the southampton player made contact with the leicester player and therefore a free kick could be given. The same ref saw contact between Pope and Bamford and could give a free kick.

This has been creeping in for years and it's why refs like Mike Dean and Martin Atkinson are generally so well regarded, because they still remember that contact is a part of the game and cannot unlearn what they know, but new refs can be taught the new way. Progress, apparently.

Yellow cards for simulation seem to have gone, and it's because no one actually dives anymore, because there is always contact. That the contact is insufficient to warrant falling over is irrelevant. There is contact, therefore it could be a foul, therefore it isn't a dive.

I'm rambling, and I'm not a referee, but I can see what's happening and what refs are being told even if they aren't actually being told it 'officially'.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

Duncan ---very true and it isn't good for the game in my opinion but it seems to be what the modern TV fan wants to see.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Strange how most people seem to think the red last night and the West Ham one last week were both laughable then.

[Burnley Ace]

But wasn’t it Vardy who got there second? Just like Pope got there before Bsmford?
Maybe the defender should now stand back and just say “after you sir”

Or the defender needs to be aware that just getting to the ball first isn’t enough and that, if they are going to make a tackle, they need to ensure that they don’t subsequently take out the man as well

[RammyClaret61]

Or the defender needs to be aware that just getting to the ball first isn’t enough and that, if they are going to make a tackle, they need to ensure that they don’t subsequently take out the man as well

Therefore, don’t make the tackle, and watch Vardy score. “After you sir, I believe we might make contact, so your ball dear chap”

[Burnley Ace]

Therefore, don’t make the tackle, and watch Vardy score. “After you sir, I believe we might make contact, so your ball dear chap”

That’s the decision the defender has to make. “If I dive into the tackle I will foul you and get a red card, if only I was a bit faster or head been in a better position”

[dsr]

Or the defender needs to be aware that just getting to the ball first isn’t enough and that, if they are going to make a tackle, they need to ensure that they don’t subsequently take out the man as well

That's the problem. Yes, you can argue that for Bamford's penalty against Pope, Pope could have seen that Bamford was going to touch the ball first and therefore even if Pope saved it (which he did) it would be a foul by Pope; there was no legal way he could dive to stop the shot. That was how the referee and VAR saw it.

But it's a stupid way to play football. I think the game should usefully accept the way the rule is in basketball or netball, where although all contact is prohibited, the officials accept that momentum being what it is, sometimes contact will happen and it not be a foul.

[dsr]

That's what I'm saying - they are making it simple by punishing the things you complained about.

If a referee is given the guidance of 'if there is contact and a player goes down you can blow for a free kick' then that is what the referee will do, and the laws of the game support that interpretation. Once the game is over the ref will be assessed and come out well.
Whereas before the ref had to determine things like intent and use of force and so on, now they don't need to.

A ref can blow for a free kick and, as long as there is contact, he cannot be incorrect.
If there is contact and he doesn't blow for a free kick, he can be wrong.

Red cards, excessive force, violent conduct and all that are a different issue - but the ref yesterday saw that the southampton player made contact with the leicester player and therefore a free kick could be given. The same ref saw contact between Pope and Bamford and could give a free kick.

This has been creeping in for years and it's why refs like Mike Dean and Martin Atkinson are generally so well regarded, because they still remember that contact is a part of the game and cannot unlearn what they know, but new refs can be taught the new way. Progress, apparently.

Yellow cards for simulation seem to have gone, and it's because no one actually dives anymore, because there is always contact. That the contact is insufficient to warrant falling over is irrelevant. There is contact, therefore it could be a foul, therefore it isn't a dive.

I'm rambling, and I'm not a referee, but I can see what's happening and what refs are being told even if they aren't actually being told it 'officially'.

There is one big gaping hole in your argument, I'm afraid. The definition of contact. By law of physics, if A contacts B, then B contacts A at the same time. Therefore in your argument (which I know is reductiam ad absurdio, you don't take it seriously yourself) the referee ought to give a free kick simultaneously to both sides. Maybe an extra ball?

More seriously, but not all that much, just extend the rule now to make it official that the players who falls fastest and screams loudest, gets the free kick. VAR can be used to establish who hit the ground first; maybe the Opportunity Knocks clapometer could be adapted to judge volume and quality of scream, as well.

[Bobzuruncle]

“Buying a foul” is creating some form of contact to get a free kick - Graeme Souness and Micah Richards just had a discussion whether this was cheating or a part of the modern game that is a positive attribute for a player. This was highlighted by MR saying that Grealish’s improved strength has made him more able to do this, implying he is now a more complete player. It seems that players have realised and fans are coming to accept that what DD says is how referees are behaving.