The three stumbling penalties

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Pstotto
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The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:09 pm

Rashford knows how to lash in a shot.

Maguire and Kane took a proper run and thumped the ball accurately in to the corner.

If you hit the ball right, the keeper can't save it.

So why three stumbling runs and half-hearted placement after watching the lesson on how to do it?????????


I think it was a fix.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by ClaretAndJew » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:10 pm

Who fixed it, for what, and why?

TheFamilyCat
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:12 pm

Isn't it obvious?

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by HitchinClaret » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:14 pm

illuminati, but don't say I said so.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by HitchinClaret » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:15 pm

oh crap, a knock on the door already....

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm

The truth is probably nearer that the Italians practice penalties with Donnarumma and his giant frame in goal then took them for real with Pickford facing them probably making the goals seem 4 times bigger.

We went from practicing knocking them past little arms, then faced under pressure with Donnarumma.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:20 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm
The truth is probably nearer that the Italians practice penalties with Donnarumma and his giant frame in goal then took them for real with Pickford facing them probably making the goals seem 4 times bigger.

We went from practicing knocking them past little arms, then faced under pressure with Donnarumma.
Not sure what relevance this has to it

Pickford was amazing in the shoot out. Unfortunately Southgate picked Rashford for a penalty his miss set the tone for the loss. One of the worst penalty’s I have seen in a long time.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:22 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Not sure what relevance this has to it

Pickford was amazing in the shoot out. Unfortunately Southgate picked Rashford for a penalty his miss set the tone for the loss. One of the worst penalty’s I have seen in a long time.
I wouldn't expect you to understand.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by RVclaret » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:22 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm
The truth is probably nearer that the Italians practice penalties with Donnarumma and his giant frame in goal then took them for real with Pickford facing them probably making the goals seem 4 times bigger.

We went from practicing knocking them past little arms, then faced under pressure with Donnarumma.
Yeah they missed two penalties so it’s irrelevant plus keeper went the wrong way with Rashford who just needed to put it anywhere on that side of the goal inside the posts.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by wilks_bfc » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:25 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Not sure what relevance this has to it

Pickford was amazing in the shoot out. Unfortunately Southgate picked Rashford for a penalty his miss set the tone for the loss. One of the worst penalty’s I have seen in a long time.
Much like a striker scoring a hat trick and still be on the losing side, a keeper wouldn’t expect to save 2 penalties in a shootout and expect to lose.

Sancho & Sakha at least made Donnarumma save it, unlike Rashford

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by bobinho » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:47 pm

Maybe it was more to do with scoring a “spectacular” penalty than making sure the job was done efficiently. Maybe vanity took over from team responsibility. That arrogance and self belief that is needed to be present in top class athletes rears it’s head when the individual finds himself alone with a chance to show off. Fancy stuttered run ups bring absolutely nothing to the end result. Nothing at all. They introduce another thing to think about, and another element of doubt.
Put the ball on the spot. Step back the required distance. Decide where you are putting it. Run up and strike the ball very hard directing it where you decided.

Not always guaranteed you will score, but it gives you a better chance and you will score more than you miss. And it shows that maybe your own vanity is secondary to the mission.

I dread to think of the grief these three will suffer next season from fans of other clubs.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Conroysleftfoot » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:48 pm

Unfortunately, taking penalties after training does not prepare you for the pressure of a full house at Wembley with the world watching.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Grumps » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:49 pm

If Rashford was taking pens like that in training then it's Southgate fault for picking him as a taker

If he'd been blasting them in training, and decided to change last night, the fault lies with Rashford.

Either way, I guess we will never know.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:51 pm

Kane and Maguire showed how to do it.

England players should not need to be shown how to do it, on the night.

The Italian keeper size means no half-hearted run-ups or trickery but accurate placing of the ball with some welly.

Pele in Shoot Magazine in the 70s taught it.


You can't come on to a match just to take a penalty because the players haven't kicked a ball to warm up and get aclimatised so nerves and first shots are bound to be bad.

The fact that Southgate did that, means it's a fix.

The reason?

The Pope.

... And to damp squib the boys of the nation on the orders of Number 10 and the Palace perhaps for a trade deal etc.

Remember Boris converted to Catholicism to get married.

The want to re-introduce religous authority to a secular nation.
Last edited by Pstotto on Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by claretandy » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:54 pm

Jorginho had never missed a penalty before, he does the stuttered run up.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:10 pm

claretandy wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:54 pm
Jorginho had never missed a penalty before, he does the stuttered run up.
Ederson saved one against Jorginho this season.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:12 pm

The stuttering run up is a joke, it looks clever if you pull it off, but an idiot if you don't. If the keeper decides not to commit until you reach the ball, you have a split second to decide where it's going, when you should have known the day before..
Grezza had the best idea, practice on an empty net, and NEVER change your mind.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by arise_sir_charge » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:32 pm

I’d love to know the stats between daft, dancing run ups and a spike run up and smack of the ball.

I’ve never seen Rashford do that before, he usually leathers them.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by claret59 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:33 pm

Psotto writes

Remember Boris converted to Catholicism to get married.

The want to re-introduce religous authority to a secular nation.



Just to clarify that Boris was Catholic since childhood ( he may not have practiced it, but was baptised in it.)

England is not a secular nation. We have a state religion (Church of England,) and the Queen is the Head of it.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Billyblah » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:36 pm

Apparently some Tory MP has been criticised for commenting on Rashfords diabolical attempt at a penalty...but frankly , if the criticism is kept purely to the football I don't see it as an issue.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by wilks_bfc » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:47 pm

Billyblah wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:36 pm
Apparently some Tory MP has been criticised for commenting on Rashfords diabolical attempt at a penalty...but frankly , if the criticism is kept purely to the football I don't see it as an issue.
They lost - would it be ungenerous to suggest Rashford should have spent more time perfecting his game and less time playing politics.
Considering she posted it on a “private” chat then somebody close has taken offence and leaked it

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by beddie » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:58 pm

Southgate said he’d decided who’d take the penalties based on what he’d seen in the training sessions, presumably that comment is based on those players who were willing to take one. Rashford knows exactly how to smash the ball, I’m stunned with his pathetic run up, as for the other two lads they looked so nervous. I’m amazed Shaw and Grealish who can both hit a ball didn’t act a little braver and take one. I hope the three lads can get it out their system and quickly and get back to some normality. They deserve that. The whole squad has given us all a boost so let’s not dwell on the bad bits and thank them for such a great effort.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:32 pm

Personally it was rashfords penalty that was most disappointing. Score that. We control the shootout. And probably go onto win.

It wasn’t even the daft run up that got me most. He took a full 18 seconds from whistle going to kicking ball. He stood there for 18 seconds trying to psyche out the keeper. When the keeper has no pressure on him!

He basically put more pressure on himself.

Maguire penalty was superb.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:33 pm

beddie wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:58 pm
Southgate said he’d decided who’d take the penalties based on what he’d seen in the training sessions, presumably that comment is based on those players who were willing to take one. Rashford knows exactly how to smash the ball, I’m stunned with his pathetic run up, as for the other two lads they looked so nervous. I’m amazed Shaw and Grealish who can both hit a ball didn’t act a little braver and take one. I hope the three lads can get it out their system and quickly and get back to some normality. They deserve that. The whole squad has given us all a boost so let’s not dwell on the bad bits and thank them for such a great effort.
Shaws legs had gone in extra time. I was surprised he stayed on. I assumed it must only have been for a pen. But he looked knackered.

I’d have kept Henderson on. I know he’s missed a couple for England. But he’s a leader and experienced. He can take it and can also handle it if he misses.

That said they were all a credit.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by yTib » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:05 pm

toolshed.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Claretmisterg » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:08 pm

From what I can gather we had the best penalty takers taking the penalties. However the conditions under which they were determined as the best penalty takers (training ground) did not match the conditions under which the penalties were taken (cauldron). We performed marvellously and went one better than 2018. Here’s hoping for another one better in Qatar.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by warksclaret » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:12 pm

Penalty taking in this country has become a bit of a circus-mind games, weird run ups , skips etc. You wonder if Rashford had thumped it in whether it might have been different last night. We were told that the three that missed had got good form in training, however it took MacGuire to show how its done. No human being could have stopped it

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by claret_in_exile » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Donnarumma's a beast, to be fair. I don't necessarily blame either Saka or Sancho for having their shots saved - they're up against a great keeper. That guy is going to be another Peter Schmeichel for the next 10-15 years.

Rashford's penalty was awful - he choked during his run-up. I was arguing in another thread that experience usually brings greater composure and that's what matters in shoot-outs, not whether a youngster can score penalties in practice. I think Southgate got it wrong and his comments afterwards suggest that he thinks so too.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Carport » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:26 pm

The margins between success and failure are so narrow in PSOs. Literally inches. An inch or two to the right and Rashford scores then I’m convinced we would have gone on to win it. We shouldn’t be too critical

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by IWOODLOVETT » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:54 pm

Pickford must be one of the best dead ball kickers in the squad. Hindsight is a great thing but Southgate missed a trick in not giving him a spot kick.
The guy had played a blinder, his confidence was sky high after saving an Italian penalty and he was in position - meaning that he didn’t have make the walk of death from the halfway line.
Maybe a tactic for the future?

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Elizabeth » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:02 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:32 pm
Personally it was rashfords penalty that was most disappointing. Score that. We control the shootout. And probably go onto win.

It wasn’t even the daft run up that got me most. He took a full 18 seconds from whistle going to kicking ball. He stood there for 18 seconds trying to psyche out the keeper. When the keeper has no pressure on him!

He basically put more pressure on himself.

Maguire penalty was superb.
The first time I’ve seen his long delay in taking the penalty mentioned today. I said to my son at the time, the ref has already blown his whistle to take the penalty what’s he waiting for. He seemed to wait until there was no crowd noise then begin his now much criticised approach. For me he either overcooked the egg or had stage fright that he tried to unsuccessfully suppress

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Boss Hogg » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:11 pm

Those young lads should never have been picked to take the pens no matter how good they were at taking them in practice. The occasion was too big. Southgate has done a lot right in this tournament but he got this wrong ( as well as not subbing Mount earlier). It’s not these young lads fault. Rashford’s was woeful though. We were shouting out ‘what’s he doing’ with the stupid run up. Maguires was excellent.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Terrier » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:15 pm

Belting the ball did not work for one of our previous managers
( waddle ) when in a similar position.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 pm

No keeper can save a penalty taken properly, it's physically impossible.

Therefore I blame those that had their penalties saved, regardless of the quality of the save.

I would expect that standard from myself, never mind the England elite.

The training ground/cauldron condition change is well-known, so bringing on players just to take penalties is quite clearly suspect, because they need to touch the ball and get rid of some nerves and get into gear.

Rockford, Columbo, and Kojak, would they agree?
Last edited by Pstotto on Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by yTib » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:24 pm

pstotto taking a penalty at wembley.

just when i thought your fantasy could fly no higher.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:26 pm

I missed my chance because the staff chose a school representative for On The Ball penalty competition in the 1970s.

If it had been a proper school there would have been a full competition organized as a sports afternoon for the school, with all pupils interested in the hat for the draw and a go.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by yTib » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:30 pm

it must be difficult when the entire world is conspiring against you.

or easy. you choose.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by tiger76 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:40 pm

Win as a team, lose as a team that's my philosophy, and although these 3 lads missed their pens they can't solely shoulder the blame, at least they had the guts to step forward, and as others have commented let's just hope they can put this disappointment behind them and not dwell on what might have been for too long.

Why does there always have to be a scapegoat every time England fall short in a big tournament, it happens every tournament, Pearce & Waddle in 1990, Southgate in 1996, Beckham in 1998, and now Rashford in 2021, it's a squad game and they should live success or failure as a unit, signalling individuals out for criticism is ridiculous, sure they missed a penalty it happens in the game get over it, we lost a football match it's not the end of the world.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Ric_C » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:46 pm

The way Southgate seemed to engineer extra time so that it went to pens and with the extra subs, I thought he had some kind of master plan up his sleeve, but no

Rules of a shootout:

Hit one out of 5 down the centre, keeps the goalie guessing.

Hit high or low, never in the middle.

Never change your mind

If you side foot it, hit it with power with your instep (Kane)

Pray

The fact our keeper saved two out of five in a final and we still lost, is pretty hard to take.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:08 pm

School dinners now hopscotch.
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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:36 pm

I think what players sometimes forget is that they aren't cleverer than the goalkeeper. They think that if they play the tricks right on their fancy run-up, they can always fool the goalkeeper; they're wrong.

Specifically, goalkeepers will at least sometimes - especially with the fancy run-up merchants - make their mind up which way they are going to dive, before the run-up starts. And if they have made their mind up, then the kicker's fancy tricks can only put himself off.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:13 am

IWOODLOVETT wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:54 pm
Pickford must be one of the best dead ball kickers in the squad. Hindsight is a great thing but Southgate missed a trick in not giving him a spot kick.
The guy had played a blinder, his confidence was sky high after saving an Italian penalty and he was in position - meaning that he didn’t have make the walk of death from the halfway line.
Maybe a tactic for the future?
Pickford also looked injured. I don’t know if that was mind games. Especially with how well he did with the pens. But he was limping at full time.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:15 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:02 pm
The first time I’ve seen his long delay in taking the penalty mentioned today. I said to my son at the time, the ref has already blown his whistle to take the penalty what’s he waiting for. He seemed to wait until there was no crowd noise then begin his now much criticised approach. For me he either overcooked the egg or had stage fright that he tried to unsuccessfully suppress
I think he was simply trying to be too clever and outwit the keeper.

All the players deserve respect and support. But I think rashford will learn a lot from that miss.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:05 am

As mentioned total nonsense started by John Aldridge (or at least he’s the first I remember doing it regularly) around the same time as Grobalaar’s wobbly legs.

Decide where you are putting it and make sure you put it there as hard as conditions allow. If you can open your foot last second 9/10 keepers will follow the swing and go the wrong way, if you got it right it doesn’t matter anyway.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:02 am

What's the big story? Racist abuse.

When did it start? Last minute of extra time.

Who caused it? Gareth Southgate.

For whom?

The Queen?

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Firthy » Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:49 am

Let's just face facts. They were 3 shite penalties, regardless of colur, age and experience. Any professional footballer playing for his country should be able to take a decent penalty, even nerves doesn't explain the poor penalties. Rashfords was pure arrogance that backfired and the other two just made wrong choices.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by SalisburyClaret » Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:17 am

Pstotto wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:22 pm
No keeper can save a penalty taken properly, it's physically impossible.
Twaddle
It’s amazing that goalkeepers save properly hit shots from closer than the penalty spot (and further away) in every game

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:22 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:17 am
Twaddle
It’s amazing that goalkeepers save properly hit shots from closer than the penalty spot (and further away) in every game
Do you think that Maguire's penalty on another day would have been saved? I would say that it would be physically impossible for a keeper to get there and save the ball unless he started off ridiculously early, or else was standing way off centre towards that post.

Pstotto's point was that if you hit a penalty hard into the top corner, the keeper can't save it. (If you hit it hard towards any corner, it is less likely. If you hit it gently and hope the keeper dives the wrong way, then it will be saved if the keeper dives the right way.)

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by SouthLondonexile » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:39 am

I know he’s a Scotsman but Graham Alexander better known as Grezza should have been coaching the squad on taking penalties. Alan Shearer Geoff Hurst had one and only one way of hitting a penalty, blast it.
For what it’s worth why would you place this huge responsibility on the three least experienced young players.

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Re: The three stumbling penalties

Post by Pstotto » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:23 pm

It looks suspect to me.

It looks like they were mismanaged to fail because given the amount of training tech and expert level sport involvement, those decisions would not have happened.

Regarding the physical impossibility, if the ball is hit at 70 mph and 12 feet from the keeper and from a distance of 12 yards, he has no chance.

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