Matchday officials, VAR and accountability

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:35 pm

It’s all very well and good, referees making mistakes, but for me, we should’ve had at least two penalties today. What I’d like to ask though, is where does the accountability lie?

Kevin friend has made a mistake by not penalising the flick on Vydra. But that will have been looked at by VAR. it’s a clear foul, possibly a penalty on first look but if not, definitely a free kick and a red card - it’s a clear and obvious error.

And then there is the aerial challenge on Vydra, who clearly is the only player to get a touch on the ball and is then promptly punched in the head by the onrushing goalkeeper. Again this was definitely checked by VAR and it’s without doubt a clear and obvious error.

Where is the comeback on this? The technology is there but to be quite honest, I feel completely cheated today. I stood on the concourse at half-time and saw the decisions and the reaction of the crowd said it all.

What am I missing? I’m not excusing the truly diabolical performance, but there was something amiss where these two decisions were concerned.

With just a referee, I’d have felt cheated; the fact the referee was supported by VAR makes me feel there’s something extremely fishy occurring. Or am I just an irrational swine?

UTC

Terrier · Post by **Terrier** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:39 pm

Quite a few fans on the norwich forum ( pink un ) agree with you that the krul punch should have been a pen to us!

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:41 pm

Terrier wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:39 pm
Quite a few fans on the norwich forum ( pink un ) agree with you that the krul punch should have been a pen to us!

It simply can’t be debated, unless someone tells me that the analysis (which I couldn’t hear) claimed the ball brushed Krul’s body in some way.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:41 pm

https://twitter.com/JamieMinnigh/status ... 08992?s=19

First time I've tried pasting a link on here, I hope it works.
Dreadful decision from Friend.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:42 pm

Accountability with referees.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:45 pm

Even if Krul had got a bit of the ball with the punch, if you punch an opponent in the head it is serious foul play.

The only possible debate about this is whether it is a straight red (the rules indicate it is) or whether you could be lenient and award only a yellow.

I do not know how VAR can possibly justify these decisions.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:46 pm

It should be in the next TV contract that the officials, including the VAR official, have to give post match interviews.

Managers are forced to it and run the gauntlet of saying something in the heat of the moment. Why shouldn't referee's provide some accountability?

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:48 pm

Forget just being a penalty, Vydra is lucky he didn’t have his head taken clean off by Krul’s two fisted punch.

Appalling officiating.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:48 pm

I’m just at a complete loss. It leaves me with the feeling that the connection with Stockley Park, was temporarily lost. It’s just 100% a penalty.

You can’t even argue that Vydra got clean contact and missed the target because that’s not advantage-Krul’s very presence made all of that happen.

kazza · Post by **kazza** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:50 pm

I still believe that whoever is at Stockley Park has their back to the screens for most of the game and spend most of it having a Costa Coffee and laughing with friends. Now and again, they turn to the TV, or they turn when the referee asks them too - but that's it. The majority of their time isn't watching the game.

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:50 pm

I knew Friend was absolutely awful today but that (non) decision is a disgrace. For VAR not to give it either is another shocker. I just don't get why there is no balance. Last season every touch was a pen but now we've had two absolute bang on ones not given. The people in charge just don't understand the game at all. It's a total shambles.

Wembley09 · Post by **Wembley09** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:50 pm

That Krul challenge was a clear and obvious error surely, how did VAR not get involved.

At the time it looked bad, but since seeing it back after it look's ever worse. Vydra clearly wins and heads the ball and then takes two running fists to the head. Shocking, keepers are so tightly protected, yet they often get away with stuff like that.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:53 pm

Wembley09 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:50 pm
That Krul challenge was a clear and obvious error surely, how did VAR not get involved.

At the time it looked bad, but since seeing it back after it look's ever worse. Vydra clearly wins and heads the ball and then takes two running fists to the head. Shocking, keepers are so tightly protected, yet they often get away with stuff like that.

Unless they save the ball (Pope v Leeds)

Stan Tastic · Post by **Stan Tastic** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:53 pm

Wasn't Friend on VAR when Tarkowski was wrestled to the ground against Everton?

I thought that VAR would stop these awful decisions but it's made it more infuriating because they're still not giving us penalties after watching video replays.

Wembley09 · Post by **Wembley09** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:59 pm

jdrobbo wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:53 pm
Unless they save the ball (Pope v Leeds)

Oh the Bamford one from the other season? And he was given a pen

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:00 pm

Apparently during the game Sky Sports said the punch by Kruel that caught Vydra was a definite penalty.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:03 pm

Are ex-professionals involved with VAR in any shape?

If they aren’t then they bloody well should be.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:27 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:46 pm
It should be in the next TV contract that the officials, including the VAR official, have to give post match interviews.

Managers are forced to it and run the gauntlet of saying something in the heat of the moment. Why shouldn't referee's provide some accountability?

I saw an interview with Mike Dean about this recently and he said, from his personal point of view, that if he had a perfect game and awarded everything correctly the media would not be interested in him, he'd only face the media when a mistake had been made and he said there would be no point in it.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:28 pm

I’ve said the same since VAR came in, for years people excused the dreadful decisions because they only get chance to view it once, their view was impeded etc etc.
Now they get as many views as they want and still get it wrong.

Go figure.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:32 pm

Like I keep telling CT the Prem is rigged against teams like us. We are not the product they want.

Cheating b'tard ref and whoever was VARman should both be put down.

Grrrrrr!

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:33 pm

I used to think there wasn't an agenda against unfashionable town teams and I was just being paranoid, after today I'm not sure.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:35 pm

I sit next to a chap who has his Ref qualifications and he was incensed when Krul took out Vyds .... nuff said

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:37 pm

IanMcL wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:32 pm
Like I keep telling CT the Prem is rigged against teams like us. We are not the product they want.

Cheating b'tard ref and whoever was VARman should both be put down.

Grrrrrr!

No it's not.
Why would the PL prefer Norwich?
I've just watched the 3 so-called penalties and they are not.

mill hill claret · Post by **mill hill claret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:38 pm

Most people on here want Var scrapping so can't have any arguments with inept refs missing crucial incidents which last season would most probably have been looked at by var

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:42 pm

The Vydra clip by Hanley was outside the area, so VAR couldn't get involved once Friend had missed it.

Had it been in the box, then they could have checked for a penalty.

Also as seen with Ramsdale the other week, if the GK gets a touch on the ball at all, what they do after is deemed irrelevant now...

Crazy.

Needs Man Cuty or Liverpool to be effected for there to be a rule change.

ClaretMat · Post by **ClaretMat** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:51 pm

The others werent penalties for me but we should have had at least one corner.

The Krul one though is just about as clear a pen as you can see, he is late and he punches Vydra square in the head. I have absolutely no idea how it cannot be a penalty.

We have just got to hope we get away with a couple at some point...

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:53 pm

Friend was deadful today. Terrible. Besides the 2 or 3 penalties not given he set the precedent for bookings by booking Tarks early. A warning would have done. VAR is hopeless as we saw in the Arsenal match. Friend gave possibly the worst refereeing performance of the season today. He was dire.

kaptin1 · Post by **kaptin1** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:03 pm

Personally don’t see how a mistimed double-fisted punch to the head is deemed ok when a mis-timed two-footed challenge to the shin invariable results in a red card. If anything, such a blow to the head is even more dangerous. Ridiculous decision.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:06 pm

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:37 pm
I've just watched the 3 so-called penalties and they are not.

Best to leave the fishing to DA, he's the expert.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:09 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:06 pm
Best to leave the fishing to DA, he's the expert.

Not fishing, they were certainly not clear cut penalties.

kazza · Post by **kazza** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:11 pm

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:09 pm
Not fishing, they were certainly not clear cut penalties.

Just seen them again and I'm with Bill. They don't look obvious ones.

buzzclarets79 · Post by **buzzclarets79** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:13 pm

Isn’t that muppet Lee Mason now heavily involved in the VAR at EP, that would go a long way to explaining how they didn’t see anything wrong with it.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:16 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:06 pm
Best to leave the fishing to DA, he's the expert.

This thread has too much Carp(ing) on it for my liking. I like fishing to be a challenge plus there's far too many fragile sole's on here tonight to risk upsetting. The Samaritans are busy enough these days without me causing an influx of calls

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:19 pm

Stan Tastic wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:53 pm
Wasn't Friend on VAR when Tarkowski was wrestled to the ground against Everton?

I thought that VAR would stop these awful decisions but it's made it more infuriating because they're still not giving us penalties after watching video replays.

That might be because the same bunch of incompetent referees are sat in front of the VAR screens. Bit of a friends club thing going on there has to be.

We saw in the Euros how much better the standard of refereeing and application of VAR is. VAR doesn't solve basic incompetence.

I've often wondered why UEFA can't have a group of referees from all over Europe that referee across the top leagues in the bigger leagues. Rotate them about. Let the fans at the Bernabeu have a dose of Kevin Friend..see how they like it

Bfc · Post by **Bfc** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:25 pm

In the 2nd half, there were 2 bookings and 5 substitutions. Friend was aware of the amount of time wasting by Krul and kept pointing at his watch, as though indicating, time wasting would be added on at 90 mins. A number of times I saw he was taking 30 seconds at goal kicks. At 90 minutes, there was 2 minutes added on time. Is it correct that 30 seconds is added onto the game for each substitution and booking?. If that's the case the minimum without anytime wasting would be 3 or 4 minutes.

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:25 pm

On monday morning Dermot Gallagher ( ex crap ref) on sky will say....corect decision, no penalty.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:25 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:16 pm
This thread has too much Carp(ing) on it for my liking. I like fishing to be a challenge plus there's far too many fragile sole's on here tonight to risk upsetting. The Samaritans are busy enough these days without me causing an influx of calls

Oh dear!

Cheshireclaret · Post by **Cheshireclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:59 pm

I know there has been an age-old clamour for referees and officials to be interviewed post-match and, generally, I understand the reasons why this is avoided.

However, today we rightly deserve an explanation as to how in the name of football that is not a penalty and at least a yellow card to Krul. On another day, Vydra could have suffered a serious head injury but no - the inept Friend just waved it away.

The challenge from Wood as well where he was happy to allow it to ride until the Naaaaaaaarxh player writhed around like Delia on a revolving dance floor so he blew his whistle, booked Wood and then booked Lowton (probably correctly) for calling him a reproductive organ.

From the 5th minute Krul was time-wasting and he was still doing it in the 92nd (quite how there were only 2 minutes of added time at the end of the 2nd half when we had 4 at the end of the first is beyond me). That performance today was appalling. He had no control from the get-go and by wafting his yellow card around early doors he ensured he had a difficult afternoon.

As for accountability - the only chance is next time he gets to referee a Championship game. I’ve never understood that. Why they intercourse should they be subjected to ineptitude?!?! He won’t though. He’ll be given a televised game just to prove how awesome he is by the fluffers in the PGMOL.

That today was awful and endangered player safety. He needs to be reprimanded. I saw Ed Balls afterwards as well, which did nothing to lighten my mood.

Our luck HAS to change soon but I’m reminded of Sheffield United last season when Wilder kept getting praised for performances yet they would lose or draw.

diamondpocket · Post by **diamondpocket** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:13 pm

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:37 pm
No it's not.
Why would the PL prefer Norwich?
I've just watched the 3 so-called penalties and they are not.

I'm sorry to be personal but you're a clown and have no idea about football & its rules. You're saying that it's not a foul for keeper to punch an attacker even if he is 0.25 seconds late to the ball, and doesn't touch the ball? OK, then yeah, right.
If that is a sliding tackle in the middle of the park you know it's a foul, not intentional but he is late & it's a foul. Argument over!

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:16 pm

diamondpocket wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:13 pm
I'm sorry to be personal but you're a clown and have no idea about football & its rules. You're saying that it's not a foul for keeper to punch an attacker even if he is 0.25 seconds late to the ball, and doesn't touch the ball? OK, then yeah, right.
If that is a sliding tackle in the middle of the park you know it's a foul, not intentional but he is late & it's a foul. Argument over!

Worse than that, my car just backfired and the door fell off

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:19 pm

I'm in a meeting on Monday morning with Mike Riley on VAR - I was wondering if any of you had any questions.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:26 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:19 pm
I'm in a meeting on Monday morning with Mike Riley on VAR - I was wondering if any of you had any questions.

Can you ask him what chance he thinks VAR and refs in general have when opposing fans and managers look at the same video footage and come up with different conclusions, all are adamant they are right and all think they have been robbed should a key decision go against their team

If they can crack this problem then maybe the refs and the technology that supports might stand a chance

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:31 pm

The non-decision for the punch on Vydra is laughable. It's a stonewall pen but it's the only one we should have had. Kevin Friend and Craig Pawson, two horrific examples of the standard we currently endure. There are only 2 top quality refs in the PL.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:37 pm

ClaretMat wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:51 pm
The others werent penalties for me but we should have had at least one corner.

The Krul one though is just about as clear a pen as you can see, he is late and he punches Vydra square in the head. I have absolutely no idea how it cannot be a penalty.

We have just got to hope we get away with a couple at some point...

Because rightly or wrongly the interpretation is that it wasn’t intentional despite catching vydra, krul had his eyes firmly fixed on the ball & yes he was late, had vydra made contact with krul first it would have been a foul the goalkeeper got the benefit of the doubt. If we was on say 6 to 8 pts already would such a big deal been made of this no, it’s disappointing because the support expected 3pts against 1 of the worst teams at home.

Targetman · Post by **Targetman** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:44 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:26 pm
Can you ask him what chance he thinks VAR and refs in general have when opposing fans and managers look at the same video footage and come up with different conclusions, all are adamant they are right and all think they have been robbed should a key decision go against their team

If they can crack this problem then maybe the refs and the technology that supports might stand a chance

There is only one person on here who is adamant that he is always right!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:45 pm

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:37 pm
Because rightly or wrongly the interpretation is that it wasn’t intentional despite catching vydra, krul had his eyes firmly fixed on the ball & yes he was late, had vydra made contact with krul first it would have been a foul the goalkeeper got the benefit of the doubt. If we was on say 6 to 8 pts already would such a big deal been made of this no, it’s disappointing because the support expected 3pts against 1 of the worst teams at home.

Doesn’t have to be intentional.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:48 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:26 pm
Can you ask him what chance he thinks VAR and refs in general have when opposing fans and managers look at the same video footage and come up with different conclusions, all are adamant they are right and all think they have been robbed should a key decision go against their team

If they can crack this problem then maybe the refs and the technology that supports might stand a chance

Hmmm.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:49 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:26 pm
Can you ask him what chance he thinks VAR and refs in general have when opposing fans and managers look at the same video footage and come up with different conclusions, all are adamant they are right and all think they have been robbed should a key decision go against their team

If they can crack this problem then maybe the refs and the technology that supports might stand a chance

Bloody good point

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:49 pm

martin_p wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:45 pm
Doesn’t have to be intentional.

Seemingly in this case it was, I don’t attend anymore for reasons I’ve explained before but I listened to it on radio lancs it was broadcast on DAB only & that was the reason I think that got mentioned, friend deemed enough wasn’t in it & on the strength of that VAR decided not to overturn that. Whether we agree or disagree that’s the reason the decision for the spotkick wasn’t awarded.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:56 pm

If Krul had got to the ball a fraction of a second before Vydra and Vydra had clattered into him knocking him over I think we can be very sure what the referee’s decision would have been.