How Would We Feel if the Saudis Took Over Burnley?

[Local cricketer]

I think you must have mistaken me for someone else. I have been one of the more vocal on this board about the takeover.

I would suspect an owner to be able to purchase a club with there own money.

It may be manageable but I would find it incredibly interesting to see how a club with a turnover of 30 odd million in the championship afford that level debt.

Half season tickets go on sale next week for St James park. Do us a favour and buy one

[Newcastleclaret93]

Half season tickets go on sale next week for St James park. Do us a favour and buy one

What’s up local? Are people not allowed different opinions to yourself?

[Andreshotboots]

They'll be the wealthiest club in the Championship for sure next season

[Local cricketer]

What’s up local? Are people not allowed different opinions to yourself?

I have no opinion on the Saudis good luck to them but your constant talking down Pace and his boys is doing my nut in.

They might not have the Saudi millions but I know for a fact that they are doing a damn sight more here than what you give them credit for.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I have no opinion on the Saudis good luck to them but your constant talking down Pace and his boys is doing my nut in.

They might not have the Saudi millions but I know for a fact that they are doing a damn sight more here than what you give them credit for.

Enlighten me then? Because all I know for certain is the new owners have cost the club a lot of money.

[Local cricketer]

Enlighten me then? Because all I know for certain is the new owners have cost the club a lot of money.

Without going into debt the club wouldn’t have a point now. Another transfer window without a signing and a manager walking away.

I will take debt over a regime that chops people up because they don’t like their opinion or is completely against women. Saudi Arabia a rich mans taliban

[Newcastleclaret93]

Without going into debt the club wouldn’t have a point now. Another transfer window without a signing and a manager walking away.

I will take debt over a regime that chops people up because they don’t like their opinion or is completely against women. Saudi Arabia a rich mans taliban

So you don’t know anything? Just blanket statements.

Why are you comparing the two owners?

[Spiral]

Was he in charge in 2017?

The doctrine of soft power is adopted by whomsoever happens to rule a country. The point isn't only that the Saudis have historically poured billions into funding their extremist interpretation of Islam (inspiring Islamist terrorist attacks here in Britain and elsewhere), or that many of the policies of MBS, like his predecessors — continued and invented — have so far been abhorrent; but that as the ruler of a state he, like his predecessors and his successor, will adopt policies which are underpinned by a philosophy of politics and governance which is outrageous to our sensibilities, and to any sense of decency. SA doesn't let human rights organisations even enter the country for inspection. If you can't see how borderline-barbarians exerting soft power in the UK by taking ownership of our footballing institutions — if you can't see how that is a moral problem (to say nothing of the strategic geopolitical consequences), then there's nothing I could say in this thread that will take your eyes off that glittering trophy hovering at the front of your imagination.

[boatshed bill]

The doctrine of soft power is adopted by whomsoever happens to rule a country. The point isn't only that the Saudis have historically poured billions into funding their extremist interpretation of Islam (inspiring Islamist terrorist attacks here in Britain and elsewhere), or that many of the policies of MBS, like his predecessors — continued and invented — have so far been abhorrent; but that as the ruler of a state he, like his predecessors and his successor, will adopt policies which are underpinned by a philosophy of politics and governance which is outrageous to our sensibilities, and to any sense of decency. SA doesn't let human rights organisations even enter the country for inspection. If you can't see how borderline-barbarians exerting soft power in the UK by taking ownership of our footballing institutions — if you can't see how that is a moral problem (to say nothing of the strategic geopolitical consequences), then there's nothing I could say in this thread that will take your eyes off that glittering trophy hovering at the front of your imagination.

This is fine in a political sense, but look at who is buying our league clubs, the Saudis are not the only dodgy would be owners.
The problem (as I see it) lies outside specific ownership, it's more to do with the entertainment industry and its demands.

[BurnleyFC]

Honestly, fickle or not, I wouldn’t be bothered. I simply want our football club to be the absolute best that it can be.

I’m happy enough with the direction that ALK seem to want to take us, though, even though I’m still uncomfortable with the debt they’ve seemingly ladened the club with.

[KRBFC]

The crown prince Mohammed Bin Salman is an autocrat, and has steered the diversification of the country's investment. It's state instructed. Part of a strategy by his, and other oil-dependent countries to enmesh their economies with other wealthy countries, thus providing a sort of personal insurance policy for the rulers of these countries against uprising at home, and antagonism from foreign countries where they have investments. The PL wanting 'assurances' about the nature of the ownership model is just them wanting to maintain plausible deniability, a piece of paper they can wave about if this blows up in everyone's face somehow.

To be more precise on your second point, it isn't so much an indictment of own leaders that they appear not to care about the public and are thus morally bankrupt, but rather that the public tolerate this supposed moral bankruptcy in our leaders and in fact reward it at elections. If the argument is to be made that our own leaders are morally bankrupt (I'm not making that argument because I don't want the thread to be pulled), it's not on them, it's on us, because we elect them. The kind of cynicism you're expressing is where an absence or morality leads you.

Did you vote for the tories?

[Newcastleclaret93]

The doctrine of soft power is adopted by whomsoever happens to rule a country. The point isn't only that the Saudis have historically poured billions into funding their extremist interpretation of Islam (inspiring Islamist terrorist attacks here in Britain and elsewhere), or that many of the policies of MBS, like his predecessors — continued and invented — have so far been abhorrent; but that as the ruler of a state he, like his predecessors and his successor, will adopt policies which are underpinned by a philosophy of politics and governance which is outrageous to our sensibilities, and to any sense of decency. SA doesn't let human rights organisations even enter the country for inspection. If you can't see how borderline-barbarians exerting soft power in the UK by taking ownership of our footballing institutions — if you can't see how that is a moral problem (to say nothing of the strategic geopolitical consequences), then there's nothing I could say in this thread that will take your eyes off that glittering trophy hovering at the front of your imagination.

The Saudis are invested to loads of massive corporations in this country. Why does this one bother you so much?

[boatshed bill]

The Saudis are invested to loads of massive corporations in this country. Why does this one bother you so much?

That's actually a very good point.

[Spiral]

This is fine in a political sense, but look at who is buying our league clubs, the Saudis are not the only dodgy would be owners.
The problem (as I see it) lies outside specific ownership, it's more to do with the entertainment industry and its demands.

To repeat what was mentioned by a few other posters on this thread and the other Newcastle thread because it's a very good point, there are degrees of differences between different 'bad' owners. (Bad in the moral sense, shady, suspect, I don't mean useless at running a club). The Glazers, for example, for all their many faults, while having made a lot of money for themselves at the expense of UTD's squad investment over the years, don't order extrajudicial murder of their fiercest critics. Abramovich is close to a mafia organisation masquerading as a government which pilfered the wealth of its own people in the chaos following the fall of the Soviet Union, sure, but he doesn't uphold a system of governance which puts adulterers and apostates to death. So you see, there's differing degrees of monstrousness between all these.

[Spiral]

The Saudis are invested to loads of massive corporations in this country. Why does this one bother you so much?

There's a lot that bothers me about a lot of things. This being a football forum, I'm trying to stick to the football investment problem. We as a country honestly don't need investment from these kind of people. Under a more equitable state of affairs we could provide a decent standard of living for folks without taking the morally cheap option of jumping into bed with some of the very worst governments in the world.

[Spiral]

Did you vote for the tories?

I'm offended you've even asked that!

[boatshed bill]

To repeat what was mentioned by a few other posters on this thread and the other Newcastle thread because it's a very good point, there are degrees of differences between different 'bad' owners. (Bad in the moral sense, shady, suspect, I don't mean useless at running a club). The Glazers, for example, for all their many faults, while having made a lot of money for themselves at the expense of UTD's squad investment over the years, don't order extrajudicial murder of their fiercest critics. Abramovich is close to a mafia organisation masquerading as a government which pilfered the wealth of its own people in the chaos following the fall of the Soviet Union, sure, but he doesn't uphold a system of governance which puts adulterers and apostates to death. So you see, there's differing degrees of monstrousness between all these.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but would say that plenty of countries, states, governments , big business all have the same moral codes.
Some just hide their behaviour, some don't.

[KRBFC]

To repeat what was mentioned by a few other posters on this thread and the other Newcastle thread because it's a very good point, there are degrees of differences between different 'bad' owners. (Bad in the moral sense, shady, suspect, I don't mean useless at running a club). The Glazers, for example, for all their many faults, while having made a lot of money for themselves at the expense of UTD's squad investment over the years, don't order extrajudicial murder of their fiercest critics. Abramovich is close to a mafia organisation masquerading as a government which pilfered the wealth of its own people in the chaos following the fall of the Soviet Union, sure, but he doesn't uphold a system of governance which puts adulterers and apostates to death. So you see, there's differing degrees of monstrousness between all these.

and that's the world in a nut shell, it doesn't stop you buying/using/watching things. Half of the items in your house were probably made in China

[Spiral]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but would say that plenty of countries, states, governments , big business all have the same moral codes.
Some just hide their behaviour, some don't.

To reiterate what I mentioned to Newcastleclaret93, I mentioned a few of my thoughts about individual morality, purity and practicality on the first page of the thread (about 17 posts in) so take a look if you're interested. I don't want to repeat myself too much because the thread will just go round and round in circles if I do.

edit-same response to KRBFC. Though these arguments are being stated and restated ad infinitum at this point. The argument "that's the way the world is" has already been discussed on this thread.

[Spiral]

Just to add to the above, I'll quote Erasmus (the poster on here, not the priest) for visibility because I think he sums it up well.

Arguments along the lines of 'it's not a fair world' and 'it's all bad anyway' or 'football's sold its soul' are weak and don't stand up to any reasonable scrutiny. They deal only in absolutes and miss the point that differences of degree and extent are real differences.

[boatshed bill]

To reiterate what I mentioned to Newcastleclaret93, I mentioned a few of my thoughts about individual morality, purity and practicality on the first page of the thread (about 17 posts in) so take a look if you're interested. I don't want to repeat myself too much because the thread will just go round and round in circles if I do.

edit-same response to KRBFC. Though these arguments are being stated and restated ad infinitum at this point. The argument "that's the way the world is" has already been discussed on this thread.

I tried, but your initial post is really hard work.

There's so many wrongs in the world, nothings going to change

[JohnMcGreal]

I'm not comfortable with the amount of flak being aimed at Newcastle supporters. After all, they had no say in this.

Ultimately, the powers that be have shown no morals or decency in allowing this take over to go ahead, and we live in a country that's increasingly immoral and indecent. So why should the moral burden fall on Newcastle supporters? Why should they be held to a higher standard than the people running the show? I think a lot of anger is being misdirected.

Back to the OP, I'd be absolutely gutted if my club was being used as a vehicle to scrub up the public image of a monstrous regime. Not many things could stop me from following Burnley, but something like this would probably be one of them.

It's a grim state of affairs all round.

[Erasmus]

Everything changes, Bill, to a greater or lesser extent. Small changes really matter because all big changes are made up of a mass of small changes. Nil disperandum.

[Elizabeth]

I’d feel that my club would suddenly become serious contenders to win big things.
I think I’d soon get over any bad publicity , maybe with a shrug of the shoulders but certainly no soul searching

[gandhisflipflop]

Unfair world. The go-to justification every b.astard throughout history has used to excuse their own lack of scruples. Truth is, you and others like you don't actually care whether the world is fair or not, and even were it otherwise 'fair', an idea so nebulous it can't be used to measure anything objectively, you'd still be led by the desire to see a Saudi-backed Burnley win above all else, even above your own conscience, and so you'd lie to yourself about some other concocted nonsense to try and scrub your conscience clean. I'd have more respect for folks like you if you just came out and said "yeah, let Pablo Escobar run the club for all I care, or the Yorkshire ripper," rather than the pi$$-weak justifications I'm reading.

And just for the record spiral you know nothing about me, my morals or beliefs. So take your self righteous ramblings about my conscious, lying to myself etc.... elsewhere. I would be paying to watch Burnley FC, no matter who the owners were.

[KRBFC]

edit-same response to KRBFC. Though these arguments are being stated and restated ad infinitum at this point. The argument "that's the way the world is" has already been discussed on this thread.

Taking the moral high ground on human rights while purchasing items made from slavery doesn't quite make sense to me, it's like crying about global warming while driving a motorbike. You wouldn't accept Saudi investment in football but you will happily buy Saudi oil?

[Lancasterclaret]

And just for the record spiral you know nothing about me, my morals or beliefs. So take your self righteous ramblings about my conscious, lying to myself etc.... elsewhere. I would be paying to watch Burnley FC, no matter who the owners were.

I don't think I would

You've got to have a moral compass that has a barrier that you won't break, or you'll put up with anything

Your morality is what makes you a human being

[boatshed bill]

Everything changes, Bill, to a greater or lesser extent. Small changes really matter because all big changes are made up of a mass of small changes. Nil disperandum.

There's only one direction that our planets, and its inhabitants, are heading.
We are on a long term mission to self destruct....
Lemimngs have more sense.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don't think I would

You've got to have a moral compass that has a barrier that you won't break, or you'll put up with anything

Your morality is what makes you a human being

All due respect Lancaster does that mean you no longer watch the F1, disney, Netflix, use Twitter, Facebook etc….

Since the PIF has invested heavily into all of them

[Lancasterclaret]

There's only one direction that our planets, and its inhabitants, are heading.
We are on a long term mission to self destruct....
Lemimngs have more sense.

Do something about then

Every little thing counts

Only have one car, cycle or walk as much as possible everywhere, don't fly, eat half meat/half lentils etc etc etc

Too easy to go "What is the point, if China is such a ****"

Same with this, the Saudis stand for nothing we stand for, so why accept this?

[Jakubclaret]

I don't think I would

You've got to have a moral compass that has a barrier that you won't break, or you'll put up with anything

Your morality is what makes you a human being

Spiral sounds or rather reads like a well intentioned kid he’s got a lot to learn about life though.

[Spiral]

Taking the moral high ground on human rights while purchasing items made from slavery doesn't quite make sense to me, it's like crying about global warming while driving a motorbike. You wouldn't accept Saudi investment in football but you will happily buy Saudi oil?

You've ignored everything I've wrote in this thread about being practical, and of the inescapability of a corrupt world not being an endorsement of its corruption. In fact, my morality informs my own politics. Save for the fact I'm not a vegetarian, I'd probably be classed as a hippy if I laid out all my beliefs and described my own thrift. (Not going to do that, don't worry). Your purity test is nonsensical. You might as well demand a person suffocate themselves due to the likelihood of having at some point breathed the same air exhaled by a child molester or a murdered.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You've ignored everything I've wrote in this thread about being practical, and of the inescapability of a corrupt world not being an endorsement of its corruption. In fact, my morality informs my own politics. Save for the fact I'm not a vegetarian, I'd probably be classed as a hippy if I laid out all my beliefs and described my own thrift. (Not going to do that, don't worry). Your purity test is nonsensical. You might as well demand a person suffocate themselves due to the likelihood of having at some point breathed the same air exhaled by a child molester or a murdered.

Ok so just to confirm it’s ok to use or watch any other Saudi product as long as it doesn’t make your life difficult or impractical.

However watching a team owned by Saudis is immoral?

[boatshed bill]

Do something about then

Every little thing counts

Only have one car, cycle or walk as much as possible everywhere, don't fly, eat half meat/half lentils etc etc etc

Too easy to go "What is the point, if China is such a ****"

Same with this, the Saudis stand for nothing we stand for, so why accept this?

I can honestly say that I do just about everything that you suggest, with the exception of cars...but if you think about it i can only dfrive one at a time

[gandhisflipflop]

I don't think I would

You've got to have a moral compass that has a barrier that you won't break, or you'll put up with anything

Your morality is what makes you a human being

That’s true, but if I was to stop doing things that interfered with my beliefs, I’d lead a pretty lonely life and I wouldn’t be doing anything. I try to be a good person each day by being kind, and live for my family. Anything else is out of my control and i would end up driving myself mad.

[Lancasterclaret]

All due respect Lancaster does that mean you no longer watch the F1, disney, Netflix, use Twitter, Facebook etc….

Since the PIF has invested heavily into all of them

I take your point

But however irrational it may be, a football club run as a sports washing enterprise is wrong, and I want as little to do with the Saudis and what they stand for as possible

I'm just glad I'm not a Newcastle fan at this moment, as it would be a hell of an internal struggle going on about this

[Lancasterclaret]

That’s true, but if I was to stop doing things that interfered with my beliefs, I’d lead a pretty lonely life and I wouldn’t be doing anything. I try to be a good person each day by being kind, and live for my family. Anything else is out of my control and i would end up driving myself mad.

Oh god, you can't change the world, but you can make little stand for stuff that is important

This is a step too far for me, and I'm just glad its not happening to my club

[boatshed bill]

I take your point

But however irrational it may be, a football club run as a sports washing enterprise is wrong, and I want as little to do with the Saudis and what they stand for as possible

I'm just glad I'm not a Newcastle fan at this moment, as it would be a hell of an internal struggle going on about this

You hit the nail on the head here.
I don't think anyone would be happy about Saudi investment in our club
Some of us would prefer no overseas investment into the PL "product" at all.
I am one.

[Lancasterclaret]

You hit the nail on the head here.
I don't think anyone would be happy about Saudi investment in our club
Some of us would prefer no overseas investment into the PL "product" at all.
I am one.

I don't think you can turn back time, and what the PL is rapidly becoming is a worry

Thing is, we can't compete now, think about Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and United, trying to compete with Saudi, UAE and Qatar?

They are just as screwed as we are, but just haven't realised it yet

[Wile E Coyote]

when we got promoted after the sheff utd final we all knew what lay ahead, giant clubs with super rich owners and we were happy to be joining them. We werent anywhere near rich enough and still arent.
I hated when rovers succeeded with walkers millions, but that is modern football. It appears to be a lottery thesedays, hoping to win against all odds by enticing some rich individual or corporate giant to takeover and end all the years of poverty.
I fear the super league fiasco will raise its head again sooner than lather, but all fans seem to want serious cash from anywhere.There is no morality. Its ultra competitive and it appears almost overnight clubs can be transformed from mediocre like newcastle utd, to potential premier league giants. I dont think Burnley fans would reject a similar deal for one monent.

[boatshed bill]

I don't think you can turn back time, and what the PL is rapidly becoming is a worry

Thing is, we can't compete now, think about Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and United, trying to compete with Saudi, UAE and Qatar?

They are just as screwed as we are, but just haven't realised it yet

I totally agree with you.
The Pl, and all top level football is very similar the the school playground bully system: "my mate is bigger than yours"

[Spiral]

Ok so just to confirm it’s ok to use or watch any other Saudi product as long as it doesn’t make your life difficult or impractical.

However watching a team owned by Saudis is immoral?

If I know the watch is unethically sourced I don't buy it.

[Spiral]

That's a terrible pun and I'm sorry!!! But it argues my point.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Newcastle is bouncing on here tonight.

[Damo]

I wonder how many of the people saying "that would be it for me" still buy the oil based products that these people make their money from. Or cheap goods made in other morally questionable places.

[elwaclaret]

I wonder how many of the people saying "that would be it for me" still buy the oil based products that these people make their money from. Or cheap goods made in other morally questionable places.

Questionable ? Is that all it is?
So if Putin wants to get in next at Fulham, that would also be ok?

[Spiral]

I wonder how many of the people saying "that would be it for me" still buy the oil based products that these people make their money from. Or cheap goods made in other morally questionable places.

Already discussed on this thread. Existence in a morally bankrupt world isn't assent or approval of the bad practices surrounding us all, and holding people to a standard of individual purity that is nothing short of impossible in our modern world and accusing them of hypocrisy for inevitably failing to meet your unattainable standard of purity (which you don't even believe yourself) is in a way a form of excusing unethical and immoral behaviour. Hence, people have their own moral compass. Don't lash out at folk when their more highly calibrated moral compass makes you feel bad about your choices. Take ownership of your own moral compass instead of accusing others of hypocrisy. To level an accusation of hypocrisy in this scenario is either pious stupidity, or a trojan horse to smuggle in the fact that you actually don't care about Islamists funding terrorism and killing journalists so long as they buy the PL for you, but while obviously understanding it would be bad form to actually say that out loud.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We are imperfect human beings, of course we all have our minor hypocrisy from time to time, I’ve tried to cut China and the oil states out of my life as much as possible but some slips through. There will be a million football fans in the UK discussing this today and they will have a million stances on it. We have to be careful not to slate any of those who aren’t exactly the same as us.

Newcastle fans will be the same - many disgusted, many stopping attending, many others still attending while disgusted and many more nonplussed.

One things for sure though - this isn’t sport anymore. It’s sportwashing geopolitics.

[quoonbeatz]

Chelsea just won the Champions League, that is success. Nobody outside of Burnley gives a toss how much money we've spent.

Success is relative. I don't care about how much money Burnley spend, never have. That's not what my post was about.

I genuinely don't get why you'd want your club to be so financially doped that they're virtually guaranteed to win something every year. What's the point? It's artificial success. I know plenty of City fans who have been going for years but, whilst pleased with their success, don't really enjoy it as much as they did. They don't even bother going to cup finals. Competition levels in football are getting further eroded, year on year. This takeover will just lead to more distortion in terms of wages and transfer fees.

[Damo]

Already discussed on this thread. Existence in a morally bankrupt world isn't assent or approval of the bad practices surrounding us all, and holding people to a standard of individual purity that is nothing short of impossible in our modern world and accusing them of hypocrisy for inevitably failing to meet your unattainable standard of purity (which you don't even believe yourself) is in a way a form of excusing unethical and immoral behaviour. Hence, people have their own moral compass. Don't lash out at folk when their more highly calibrated moral compass makes you feel bad about your choices. Take ownership of your own moral compass instead of accusing others of hypocrisy. To level an accusation of hypocrisy in this scenario is either pious stupidity, or a trojan horse to smuggle in the fact that you actually don't care about Islamists funding terrorism and killing journalists so long as they buy the PL for you, but while obviously understanding it would be bad form to actually say that out loud.

More virtue signalling.