Fracking

[Swizzlestick]

What I remember most vividly and frankly joyously is Emma Thompson - you know the one who hates UL and noved to Venice - campaigning at Woodplumpton and a local farmer spreading his silage on her and her sister
Have to say I enjoyed that.

I live about a mile away from Woodplumpton, and can assure you there’s been no fracking or fracking protests. These took place at Little Plumpton, a totally separate place, as has been previously pointed out to you. As you’ve proved in the rest of this thread though, the apparent authority you claim to have on this issue has not been backed up by basic facts or logic.

[RingoMcCartney]

Is Sunday considered to be the end of the week or the start of the week? Just trying to work out if Stayingup is making a last dash attempt to win clown of the week or if he's setting the early pace for the crown

It's irrelevant.

Nobody's ever going to take top spot from you, Champ !

[Burnley Ace]

So that must obviously mean nobody else did then because you didn’t, strange logic, I felt something in cartford near the toll bridge & not massively close it definitely happened.

Did you experience it or are you just confirming other people’s accounts?

[Burnley Ace]

It's proven/factual that it ocurred isn't it, more than once, irrespective of whether you felt it?

What effect did it have? At what level is it if concern (other than to house prices)?

[Volvoclaret]

Rather than resorting to abuse can we stick to facts. On the day of the supposed earthquake there was no fracking taking place. The tremor was perfectly normal for the area and measured 1.1 on the RS which is about the same as a HGV passing by. Talking of HGVs I noticed some of the same protestors imported into the anti fracking protests are the now closing the M25. Rentamob.

[taio]

What effect did it have? At what level is it if concern (other than to house prices)?

I think the largest was 2.9, which is a minor earthquake but an earthquake nonetheless. Some local people were naturally and understandably concerned about the prospect of deterioration had the operation scaled-up and the longer-term implications.

[Burnley Ace]

I think the largest was 2.9, which is a minor earthquake but an earthquake nonetheless. Some local people were naturally and understandably concerned about the prospect of deterioration had the operation scaled-up and the longer-term implications.

Based on supposition rather than factual analysis?

[taio]

Based on supposition rather than factual analysis?

Based on multiple reports which are readily available.

[Lancasterclaret]

We live in rainy, windy island surrounded by the sea

Lets dig in the ground for our energy needs

[Paul Waine]

Oh! So when it’s all calmed down, gas prices will reduce to what they were (ish) pre-Covid.

That’s great. I shall look forward to that.

Pre-covid is a "big ask" - that's almost 2 years ago, already. Other things might also change around the globe over those two years.

However, almost 40 years in commodities (now retired) tells me these high prices as the market handles the imbalance between high demand and low supply will eventually be followed by lower prices.

[Jakubclaret]

Did you experience it or are you just confirming other people’s accounts?

I was walking on the banks of the wyre & the terra firma vibrated. You started experimenting with nature & adverse effects can happen, we don’t know enough yet about fracking more research needs to be carried out.

[martin_p]

I live about 8 miles from the site and never felt a tremor never mind an “earthquake”

I lived four miles from the site and felt the earth tremors on two occasions so whatever you think it definitely happened. They were also recorded by the scientific equipment they brought in specifically to detect tremors.

I find this ‘I didn’t experience it so it can’t have happened’ attitude that is increasingly prevalent in society over the last few years incredible!

[aggi]

It is the cleanest fossil fuel when burnt but it’s still pretty harmful to the environment. Natural gas is mainly made up of methane (CH4). When burnt you get carbon dioxide (CO2) and Carbon Monoxide (CO) amongst others which are harmful greenhouse gases.



This i agree with. To rely on another country to supply your energy is not the best idea is it?

I’m doing a lot of work in looking to switch from Nat gas to hydrogen in our machines. This seems to be the way to go. Green hydrogen is 100% clean and can be produced from 100% green, renewable energy.

I was surprised to discover that 95% of hydrogen production is currently from fossil fuels.

It will be interesting to see whether green hydrogen actually becomes a reality or it ends up as something like biofuels where what seems a good idea inadvertently causes further problems.

[dsr]

I lived four miles from the site and felt the earth tremors on two occasions so whatever you think it definitely happened. They were also recorded by the scientific equipment they brought in specifically to detect tremors.

I find this ‘I didn’t experience it so it can’t have happened’ attitude that is increasingly prevalent in society over the last few years incredible!

This is true. In places where fracking was taking place, the specially brought-in scientific equipment, specifically designed to spot tremors too small for ordinary equipment to spot, discovered tremors. Whereas other places that did not have this specially sensitive equipment, did not detect tremors. Not surprisingly.

Did they ever do a control test? What's the position in the USA, where they are getting oodles of gas from fracking? Have they a particularly bad earthquake record rcently?

[MalaysiaMo]

The earth tremors are only part of the concern regarding the process of hydraulic fracking. Of much greater concern - because of its potential long-term effects - is the risk of pollution of groundwater by the mass of chemicals used in the process ~ chemicals that include human carcinogens such as benzene, toxic in water at levels greater than five parts per billion. And we do not even know the health effects of many of the mass of chemicals that are used - we have simply never had the opportunity to study them, including how persistent they are. We should adopt the Precautionary Principle here, given what is at stake - the fracking companies should have to prove, without reasonable doubt, that what they plan to do is safe (including regarding risks to critical water supplies that are used for drinking, irrigating food etc). The general population should not be expected to prove that what fracking companies plan to do is unsafe - we have had 200 years of that, and look where it has got us ~ on the brink of several massive environmental crises while also experiencing rising poverty levels.

[dsr]

The earth tremors are only part of the concern regarding the process of hydraulic fracking. Of much greater concern - because of its potential long-term effects - is the risk of pollution of groundwater by the mass of chemicals used in the process ~ chemicals that include human carcinogens such as benzene, toxic in water at levels greater than five parts per billion. And we do not even know the health effects of many of the mass of chemicals that are used - we have simply never had the opportunity to study them, including how persistent they are. We should adopt the Precautionary Principle here, given what is at stake - the fracking companies should have to prove, without reasonable doubt, that what they plan to do is safe (including regarding risks to critical water supplies that are used for drinking, irrigating food etc). The general population should not be expected to prove that what fracking companies plan to do is unsafe - we have had 200 years of that, and look where it has got us ~ on the brink of several massive environmental crises while also experiencing rising poverty levels.

200 years of rising poverty levels?

It's a complicated issue and you raise valid concerns. But the safety procedure does have to work from both sides. It's necessary IMO that the government needs to be in on the process, partly to express specifically what the concerns are and what needs to be disproved. A blanket "prove that nothing unforeseen can possibly happen" approach would be extreme.

[Spiral]

Nothing quite like a debate on fracking to make w@anker plebs feel like *serious people*. *Serious people*, mind, who live nowhere near a fracking site. Who've never taken their dog for a $hit near a site that used to be wilderness and thought, "seems like someone is getting filthy rich off this little racket, and I'm not sure anyone else is benefitting much." Serious (internet) people superficially debating serious issues like national energy policy. *puts on serious person cap*. Serious people making faking taking brave policy stances. It takes guts, you know, GUTS! to pollute the environment and screw local communities for the greater good THE GREYTER GUD. It's not lazy or corrupt, it's N.E.C.E.S.S.A.R.Y. you stupid hippy. It takes GUTS. Ipso facto, I'm a serious, and I'm a brave, and...oh, oh hello there emergent sentiment...I'm also re...re...responsible? Yes! Responsible. I make brave decisio...I...I have the guts to make the kind of tough, responsible decis.....NOBODY WAS CUTTING OFF HANDS BEFORE ME! f.uck, what was that?... I have the gu...HANDS!!! I'll cut off everyone's motherf.ucking HANDS!!! You know, it takes GUTS to cut off everyone's HANDS! Nobody was cutting off HANDS before me, I'm a brave leader...I mean, forum poster, but obviously when I talk about cutting off han...I mean, energy policy, I'm now the Prime Mini Tw@t, and I approve cutti...FRACKING! Bask in my...erm...guts. Frack. I'm Mr. Serious with a serious hat, and here are my empty headed views on fracking that The Telegraph told me to think...

[bobinho]

Wtf is that all about?

There I am, reading the forum and enjoying the debate then along comes this tirade….

Take the strap off, put the spoon and the needle down, and step away from the table….enough is enough.

[Billy Balfour]

Wtf is that all about?

Sounds like a Pstotto's sockpuppet.

[Chobulous]

Wtf is that all about?

There I am, reading the forum and enjoying the debate then along comes this tirade….

Take the strap off, put the spoon and the needle down, and step away from the table….enough is enough.

Sounds like a Pstotto's sockpuppet.

Cut and paste job

[Dark Cloud]

Not particularly obnoxious at all. Either you know or you dont know.
BBC and Independent, Oh well if it was up to them
Cartwright, Crompton and of course Hargreaves and more of our great inventors should never have been born. We need energy sources now

His name was Arkwright.

[martin_p]

This is true. In places where fracking was taking place, the specially brought-in scientific equipment, specifically designed to spot tremors too small for ordinary equipment to spot, discovered tremors. Whereas other places that did not have this specially sensitive equipment, did not detect tremors. Not surprisingly.

Did they ever do a control test? What's the position in the USA, where they are getting oodles of gas from fracking? Have they a particularly bad earthquake record rcently?

I don’t know and I can’t be bothered to find out at the moment. All I did was respond to someone who claimed ‘none of these things ever happen’ in response to a poster claiming there had been earth tremors and local concern. I experienced them so I know it to be absolute fact. The two I remember were certainly the worse tremors I experienced in almost 25 years living on the Fylde coast.

[MalaysiaMo]

200 years of rising poverty levels?

It's a complicated issue and you raise valid concerns. But the safety procedure does have to work from both sides. It's necessary IMO that the government needs to be in on the process, partly to express specifically what the concerns are and what needs to be disproved. A blanket "prove that nothing unforeseen can possibly happen" approach would be extreme.

You know that I didn't suggest that we had had 200 years of rising poverty levels. Where we are now, after 200 years of letting the polluter get away without paying the full cost of their actions, is on the brink of several environmental crises while also experiencing rising poverty levels. We know from experience that trickle down economics is a hoax.

What's wrong with expecting companies (and governments) that expect to make a shed load of money out of a planned development - because all the real costs (health and environmental impacts) are externalised (paid for by the general public, in other words) - from having to prove that their plans are safe?

[dibraidio]

I was surprised to discover that 95% of hydrogen production is currently from fossil fuels.

It will be interesting to see whether green hydrogen actually becomes a reality or it ends up as something like biofuels where what seems a good idea inadvertently causes further problems.

Hydrogen can be produced cleanly via electrolysis but it works a lot better if you stick chlorine in the water....only that produces CO2. But hey, why bother about pollution if it makes more hydrogen and therefore more money.

[Billy Balfour]

The whole UK/England fracking issue has to be looked at again. Firstly, are there enough shale gas formations well away from dwellings to make the industry viable? Secondly, what is the environmental impact of the actual fracking process, and can this be minimised to negligible levels?

[KateR]

For those really interested in hydrogen please look at the link.
https://www.iea.org/fuels-and-technologies/hydrogen

H2 is the most abundant element in the world, however there is zero hydrogen naturally occurring and it needs to be "made" and it has been for a long time, even electrolysis has been known about from the 1800's and is therefore not new. I have been working on hydrogen from waste for quite a while and have two major projects in California in the final stage of project sanction and have secured two major offtake deals to take all the hydrogen produced. 2024 before production though but we have been in discussions with numerous entities globally, very close with Port of Rotterdam for example.

Production of hydrogen has been from coal/fossil fuels and is still 95% produced that way, this is known as Black/Brown and Gray hydrogen, in the scheme of nominating colors to the different hydrogen production colors, Green is of course well know, Pink is from nuclear for example.

In terms of fracking, I live in Texas and have visited and stayed in the largest shale fracking operations in the MIdland area, no one seems that concerned and there are lot's of fracking operations across the US. Years ago there were concerns and reported incidents of tremors, and water pollution but I've personally heard nothing in that area of concern for quite a while.

Fracking changed the landscape in more ways, the oil produced provided an alternative from OPEC, at one point exports from the US was higher than Saudi, what you should understand actual oil export from the US was banned until relatively recent. US have huge reserves of oil in salt caverns and always imported oil to stock pile rather than use it's own resources, gas prices have been very low and they can turn the taps on/off as they want in order to ensure the USA energy security.

[bf2k]

I was surprised to discover that 95% of hydrogen production is currently from fossil fuels.

It will be interesting to see whether green hydrogen actually becomes a reality or it ends up as something like biofuels where what seems a good idea inadvertently causes further problems.

Agreed. The process of producing brown hydrogen is actually more involved and requires heat which is baffling. Viesmann have a domestic boiler which currently works with Nat Gas to produce Hydrogen. The good thing is it is very low emissive and once operational it runs itself, even giving back to the grid when in normal operation. It’s runs on solar power. Therefore, if this can be achieved at this level scaling up should be achievable as well.

I’m a tad too young to remember the biofuel introduction but from what I’ve researched there is a real appetite for change now whereas before there wasn’t.

[Hipper]

Hydrogen. Currently this is mostly used for industrial processes, not as a fuel. If/when it is used as a fuel the amount required would dwarf what we use now so we need sustainable and energy efficient ways of producing it. This was discussed on a previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55254&p=1599200&hil ... n#p1599200

You know that I didn't suggest that we had had 200 years of rising poverty levels. Where we are now, after 200 years of letting the polluter get away without paying the full cost of their actions, is on the brink of several environmental crises while also experiencing rising poverty levels. We know from experience that trickle down economics is a hoax.

What's wrong with expecting companies (and governments) that expect to make a shed load of money out of a planned development - because all the real costs (health and environmental impacts) are externalised (paid for by the general public, in other words) - from having to prove that their plans are safe?

It's not just 200 years of ignoring the environmental consequences of our actions. We've done it throughout our existence. The issue now is the shear numbers of people combined with the wish for a high standard of living removed considerably from nature.

The idea of fracking at this time when we know the long term damage it will do in terms of greenhouse gases is just pure short term selfishness.

As for fuel security, when have we had this since the move to oil around the 1920s onwards?

[Billy Balfour]

As for fuel security, when have we had this since the move to oil around the 1920s onwards?

Roughly since the late 1960s, when North Sea oil and gas was in full flow.

[aggi]

Natural gas is a fairly clean burning fossil fuel. This country should never have allowed its energy security to get in the mess its in.

If you really want energy security security then surely it's better investing in renewable power like tidal, wind, etc rather than things like natural gas which will run out.

[bf2k]

For those really interested in hydrogen please look at the link.
https://www.iea.org/fuels-and-technologies/hydrogen

H2 is the most abundant element in the world, however there is zero hydrogen naturally occurring and it needs to be "made" and it has been for a long time, even electrolysis has been known about from the 1800's and is therefore not new. I have been working on hydrogen from waste for quite a while and have two major projects in California in the final stage of project sanction and have secured two major offtake deals to take all the hydrogen produced. 2024 before production though but we have been in discussions with numerous entities globally, very close with Port of Rotterdam for example.

Production of hydrogen has been from coal/fossil fuels and is still 95% produced that way, this is known as Black/Brown and Gray hydrogen, in the scheme of nominating colors to the different hydrogen production colors, Green is of course well know, Pink is from nuclear for example.

What industry have you experienced hydrogen use & hydrogen production in KateR? Sounds like you are lot further down the line than I am with the research.

[Taffy on the wing]

This is true. In places where fracking was taking place, the specially brought-in scientific equipment, specifically designed to spot tremors too small for ordinary equipment to spot, discovered tremors. Whereas other places that did not have this specially sensitive equipment, did not detect tremors. Not surprisingly.

Did they ever do a control test? What's the position in the USA, where they are getting oodles of gas from fracking? Have they a particularly bad earthquake record rcently?

Hundreds of tremors per day in Oklahoma.......rivers and streams rendered useless in Wyoming!
It goes on and on.
I can imagine future generations, in a much drier World digging deep for groundwater, only to find it polluted with Dioxin and other chemicals......Shortsighted stupidity at it's worst!

[Billy Balfour]

If you really want energy security security then surely it's better investing in renewable power like tidal, wind, etc rather than things like natural gas which will run out.

Quite, but we are where we are, and over 23 million homes currently rely on gas for heating. Like I've said - we have pisspoor politicians, both past and present, when it comes to long-term infrastructure projects. We should have emulated the French and stepped up our nuclear capacity years ago, same with tidal.

[elwaclaret]

Hundreds of tremors per day in Oklahoma.......rivers and streams rendered useless in Wyoming!
It goes on and on.
I can imagine future generations, in a much drier World digging deep for groundwater, only to find it polluted with Dioxin and other chemicals......Shortsighted stupidity at it's worst!

Have you not noticed Britain has specialised in shortsighted stupidity for some time, only now we’re finally perfecting it.

[Taffy on the wing]

http://www.worc.org/fracking-cover-up-c ... n-wyoming/
Methane really is a HUGE problem/side effect of Fracking.
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/2903 ... ation-epa/
Toxins?.....nah its safe!.....we are way below the aquifer etc.

Oil and Gas companies cannot be trusted......period.

[Volvoclaret]

There have been regular earthquakes in Wyoming since records began over 100 years ago. There has been no significant increase since fracking began.

[Taffy on the wing]

Who said anything about Earthquakes in Wyoming?

Tons of Earthquakes in Oklahoma though.....apparently caused by the oil and gas industry injecting dirty drilling water back into the Earth (out of sight out of mind).........Doesn't seem like a good idea to me!

[Burnley Ace]

I lived four miles from the site and felt the earth tremors on two occasions so whatever you think it definitely happened. They were also recorded by the scientific equipment they brought in specifically to detect tremors.

I find this ‘I didn’t experience it so it can’t have happened’ attitude that is increasingly prevalent in society over the last few years incredible!

I didn’t say it didn’t happen. I said I live 8 miles away and didn’t feel anything. I find this deliberate misinterpretation of basic statements quite disconcerting! It’s basic English comprehension

[dsr]

If you really want energy security security then surely it's better investing in renewable power like tidal, wind, etc rather than things like natural gas which will run out.

Yes, but natural gas won't run out tomorrow. The point of "fuel security" is that we are currently in a position where Russia can cut off the power and we have power cuts tomorrow, or else they can say (as they have been saying) that the price has quadrupled, take it or leave it. If we had maintained proper investment in power, including nuclear and coal reserve power, then we wouldn't have that risk.

[martin_p]

I didn’t say it didn’t happen. I said I live 8 miles away and didn’t feel anything. I find this deliberate misinterpretation of basic statements quite disconcerting! It’s basic English comprehension

So you made an utterly pointless statement then.

[KateR]

What industry have you experienced hydrogen use & hydrogen production in KateR? Sounds like you are lot further down the line than I am with the research.

My background is oil & gas development, but two years ago I switched to looking at alternatives and have been working with two companies to help them in their transition for the future. Both companies are service industry types to O&G but many others, Mining/Government/Infrastructure/life Sciences.

One in particular I have helped them set up a small central division for Decarbonization and Energy Transition, as part of this 18 months ago a small technology company was identified for utilizing a waste to hydrogen process, I also helped this technology company to sell 10 years worth of hydrogen to two major companies, that will utilize the hydrogen for hydrogen fueled vehicles. The hydrogen is high purity and ideal for transportation but can be used for anything, presently in discussions with:

• One of the largest Cement producers in the world that want to trial a facility in Germany
  Bu

ild another facility in the Port of Rotterdam, the hydrogen production will go into the European Hydrogen backbone pipeline, the CO2 production will go into the pipeline that presently feeds all the nurseries for agricultural growth, flowers etc. This pipeline is being extended into the N Sea for disposal underground in one of the large Carbon Capture facilities, Porthos.

In addition to the above this company also lead a consortium of over 60 companies, that developed the masterplanning for converting a Northern Municipality in the Netherlands from natural gas heating to hydrogen for home boilers. There are five other municipalities in the wings waiting for the next phase, presently I am also engaged in converting the feed from electrolysis from renewables to utilizing the waste to hydrogen concept.

Plus numerous other small projects regarding hydrogen, such as hydrogen burners on a home and industrial scale or conversion from natural gas or other fuels.

[Jakubclaret]

So you made an utterly pointless statement then.

TBF that’s running true to form was anything else expected!

[Burnley Ace]

So you made an utterly pointless statement then.

Only to people who have poor comprehension.

[Burnley Ace]

TBF that’s running true to form was anything else expected!

Coming from you I will take that as a compliment!

[Hipper]

Yes, but natural gas won't run out tomorrow. The point of "fuel security" is that we are currently in a position where Russia can cut off the power and we have power cuts tomorrow, or else they can say (as they have been saying) that the price has quadrupled, take it or leave it. If we had maintained proper investment in power, including nuclear and coal reserve power, then we wouldn't have that risk.

We get hardly any gas from Russia. That's Europe's problem. They do however have an effect on the price of gas:

https://kalkinemedia.com/news/economy/w ... upply-from

Our main fault seems to be that we have been lax in gas storage.

[martin_p]

Only to people who have poor comprehension.

Ok then, help me out, what did you mean and what relevance did it have to my comment you responded to saying the earthquakes had definitely happened?

[Burnley Ace]

I live 8 miles away and haven’t felt any tremors from an earthquake. It’s comparative and gives a perspective on the magnitude of the effects especially as the vast majority of people aren’t aware that the Richter scale is a logarithmic, rather than linear, measurement of the wave amplitude.

Using the Richter scale less than 2 can only be detected by a seismograph, less than 3 and hanging objects may swing, less than 4 and it’s comparable to the vibrations of a passing truck. There have been two “earthquakes” in Colne this summer, there were 2 in Sept 20 in Leighton Buzzard that were both stronger than the biggest one in Blackpool!

The earthquakes on the Flyde have been so small with such minimal impact that any reference to them should be contextualised.

[Volvoclaret]

Who said anything about Earthquakes in Wyoming?

Tons of Earthquakes in Oklahoma though.....apparently caused by the oil and gas industry injecting dirty drilling water back into the Earth (out of sight out of mind).........Doesn't seem like a good idea to me!

But nothing to do with fracking.

[ICL]

https://kalkinemedia.com/news/economy/w ... upply-from

Our main fault seems to be that we have been lax in gas storage.

Indeed it is, leaving us very exposed to fluctuations in gas prices. The closure of the Rough Field Storage facility at Easington in 2017, was predicted to leave us exposed. The Goverment was told this in a report it commissioned, but decided to leave it to ‘the market’ to sort out

[Taffy on the wing]

But nothing to do with fracking.

There's lots of instances of Fracking causing earthquakes, they're not the main problem though,
the amounts of Methane released during and after Fracking makes it an environmental disaster.
Methane has 80 times the global warming effect of CO2!