Our time in Premier is over

[Newcastleclaret93]

Leeds look like this years second season syndrome club…like Sheff Utd. Southampton continue to be shite but hopefully this season will see them down. Norwich will finish bottom for sure. There are plenty of rubbish clubs around. And we always take about 8 games or so to get going. I think with our new lads we are stronger than for a while. And we have not been playing too badly all in all. Only bad point for me is, and I hate to say this, Pope is not looking too hot this season. Maybe he needs a rest.

The biggest concern for me is just how bad our run has been. I think it’s 4 wins in 29 games now. We need a dramatic turnaround to stay up on that form.

There’s positive signs but Southampton might be one of the biggest games of our premier league tenure. Win that and things start to look Rosie, lose it and we are in trouble.

[diamondpocket]

So the general consensus on here is that we are playing well and we will be fine.

0 wins in 11 games.
4 wins in 27 games.
0 wins in the last 14 home games.
1 win in the last 16 home games.

Putting this form down to luck/decisions is blindly ignoring facts and excusing mediocrity.

Maybe someone can fill me with confidence, so I have a question......

If you cannot win when you are playing well, when do you win?

The saying's 'claret tinted glasses' init?

[NewClaret]

The biggest concern for me is just how bad our run has been. I think it’s 4 wins in 29 games now. We need a dramatic turnaround to stay up on that form.

There’s positive signs but Southampton might be one of the biggest games of our premier league tenure. Win that and things start to look Rosie, lose it and we are in trouble.

The interesting thing about this thread is that when we were winning we’d see lots of complaints about the performances despite the result.

Everyone seems to be much more comfortable about things now, because we’re playing better.

I’ve gone past caring. My gut is that we’re a mid-table Premiership team on paper. Obviously that counts for nothing, but I’m certain if we did go down we have more than enough to go straight back up, so I’m seeing worst case scenario as a season in the Championship, which isn’t so bad.

[KRBFC]

The saying's 'claret tinted glasses' init?

potentially, however we are playing well and not winning and while the stats I posted are bleak and point to major issues, they do include a chunk of last seasons games which are somewhat meaningless.

I think we need 2 in January to come in and have a huge instant impact, Barkley and a big name striker with pedigree on loans.

It will be a gamble, probably £6m on wages and loan fees for 6 months but I think it's well worth a gamble to try and secure £130m+ for survival. Not to mention, with the loans hanging over our head and ALK without the personal funds to fund it, our squad could be absolutely decimated after relegation to keep our heads financially above water. Everything Dyche worked for 9 years to create could be wiped out just to fund a debt against the club which was to buy ourselves new ownership.

I wouldn't be surprised if ALK sold Mcneil, Pope, Cornet, Collins, Wood, paid off the MSD loan. Sell the club back to Garlick for £30m, that's a nice £10m profit each (I think there's 3 of them, right?), who doesn't love RISK FREE money, you cannot lose.

[KRBFC]

people would cry ''silly money silly money'' if we paid 100 grand a week to Barkley for 5 months on loan (£2.2m) whilst completely ignoring it's a fraction of the debt figure leveraged against the club.

[HunterST_BFC]

There is some Mad Pant Wetting on this thread.
Far too early to panic.

Start that in December (maybe).

We're just warming up!

UTC

[SydneyClaret]

Not till May it isn’t. Chin up lad.

[Lancasterclaret]

potentially, however we are playing well and not winning and while the stats I posted are bleak and point to major issues, they do include a chunk of last seasons games which are somewhat meaningless.

I think we need 2 in January to come in and have a huge instant impact, Barkley and a big name striker with pedigree on loans.

It will be a gamble, probably £6m on wages and loan fees for 6 months but I think it's well worth a gamble to try and secure £130m+ for survival. Not to mention, with the loans hanging over our head and ALK without the personal funds to fund it, our squad could be absolutely decimated after relegation to keep our heads financially above water. Everything Dyche worked for 9 years to create could be wiped out just to fund a debt against the club which was to buy ourselves new ownership.

I wouldn't be surprised if ALK sold Mcneil, Pope, Cornet, Collins, Wood, paid off the MSD loan. Sell the club back to Garlick for £30m, that's a nice £10m profit each (I think there's 3 of them, right?), who doesn't love RISK FREE money, you cannot lose.

Remember during the transfer window when this berk was just making stuff up about how the ownership works and how they do transfers, and that they were going to sell it a huge profit despite losing money, or something equally daft

Bear that in mind when you read stuff like this eh?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Remember during the transfer window when this berk was just making stuff up about how the ownership works and how they do transfers, and that they were going to sell it a huge profit despite losing money, or something equally daft

Bear that in mind when you read stuff like this eh?

Lancaster hasn’t Barry Kilby literally just said that if we are relegated this season it’s not looking good? Or something along them lines.

I don’t think it’s an out there suggestion that if we are relegated the squad will be decimated to pay of the debt. How else could it be paid when we would be earning a third of our current revenue?

[Local cricketer]

Notice people are spouting about Palace on this thread and how good they are. I checked the league table expecting to see them in the top 4 15 points clear of us. Imagine my shock when I saw that they had only won one game and are only 4 points ahead of us

[Newcastleclaret93]

Notice people are spouting about Palace on this thread and how good they are. I checked the league table expecting to see them in the top 4 15 points clear of us. Imagine my shock when I saw that they had only won one game and are only 4 points ahead of us

On our current form that 4 point gap would take us 11 games to catch them up. (If they didn’t play anymore in that time)

[Pstotto]

Cheer up.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Lancaster hasn’t Barry Kilby literally just said that if we are relegated this season it’s not looking good? Or something along them lines.

I don’t think it’s an out there suggestion that if we are relegated the squad will be decimated to pay of the debt. How else could it be paid when we would be earning a third of our current revenue?

Kilby likes the new owners, thinks they're energetic and progressive with their thinking and willingness to try new things to generate revenue and move the club forwards.
Says relegation wouldn't be ideal but not the end of the world etc.

Of course you're welcome to cut out and use whatever part of the interview you'd like to suit agendas, but he isn't all doom and gloom.

[warksclaret]

Not so sure about the Newcastle factor.
1. They can’t buy any players until January, by which time they could be rooted at or near the bottom.
2. How many of these ‘world class’ players they are allegedly going to sign are going to want to get into a relegation scrap?
3. Even great players if bought en masse would take time to gel.
4. Even City didn’t become what they have overnight.
5. Most top players want to play in the Champions league - that is not going to be Newcastle next season.
6. There is, I am told, a limit to how much they can spend initially due to FFP.
7. Newcastle is a cold dark place in winter for Brazilians, Spaniards and Italians to rock up to.
They may stave off relegation but I think whatever happens they are in for a long hard season and it may be a year or two before they seriously launch a challenge.

Guess it depends what a new manager can get out of this team. For me they have some very good players and not surprised they finished mid table. Callum Wilson and St Maxime are match winning players

[KRBFC]

Remember during the transfer window when this berk was just making stuff up about how the ownership works and how they do transfers, and that they were going to sell it a huge profit despite losing money, or something equally daft

Bear that in mind when you read stuff like this eh?

What are you talking about selling it at huge profit whilst losing money? Why would I say they were going to sell the club during the last transfer window, they'd just bought it lol? if Alan Pace isn't losing money from his bank account, anything he got from the sale is profit. Use your brain, the club is paying the debts.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -with-debt

[Tall Paul]

I wouldn't be surprised if ALK sold Mcneil, Pope, Cornet, Collins, Wood, paid off the MSD loan. Sell the club back to Garlick for £30m, that's a nice £10m profit each (I think there's 3 of them, right?), who doesn't love RISK FREE money, you cannot lose.

How are they going to pay back the £100m or so they owe to the club?

[CrosspoolClarets]

There is a lot on here suggesting relegation will be a disaster due to the debt and interest, but if an investor were to buy the club with relegation meaning implosion that would seem to me to be a very daft investor, and these guys don’t strike me as that.

(OK I get the bit about they aren’t fronting up much of their own cash but the same logic could apply to Dell who will have done their due diligence).

More likely is that there are spreadsheets looking at various scenarios including relegation ones, and in those scenarios there would be a plan for getting back up, preserving the bulk of our talent. Maybe one star name would be sold to help cashflow and pay any interest but I bet it wouldn’t be a firesale in year 1.

So, relax, would be my advice. I think we’re going to stay up anyway though,

[warksclaret]

There is a lot on here suggesting relegation will be a disaster due to the debt and interest, but if an investor were to buy the club with relegation meaning implosion that would seem to me to be a very daft investor, and these guys don’t strike me as that.

(OK I get the bit about they aren’t fronting up much of their own cash but the same logic could apply to Dell who will have done their due diligence).

More likely is that there are spreadsheets looking at various scenarios including relegation ones, and in those scenarios there would be a plan for getting back up, preserving the bulk of our talent. Maybe one star name would be sold to help cashflow and pay any interest but I bet it wouldn’t be a firesale in year 1.

So, relax, would be my advice. I think we’re going to stay up anyway though,

We all need a share of your belief and confidence. There are more important things in life to worry about in these difficult times our country is going through

[Devils_Advocate]

There is a lot on here suggesting relegation will be a disaster due to the debt and interest, but if an investor were to buy the club with relegation meaning implosion that would seem to me to be a very daft investor, and these guys don’t strike me as that.

(OK I get the bit about they aren’t fronting up much of their own cash but the same logic could apply to Dell who will have done their due diligence).

More likely is that there are spreadsheets looking at various scenarios including relegation ones, and in those scenarios there would be a plan for getting back up, preserving the bulk of our talent. Maybe one star name would be sold to help cashflow and pay any interest but I bet it wouldn’t be a firesale in year 1.

So, relax, would be my advice. I think we’re going to stay up anyway though,

It depends how much of their own money they stand to lose if things goes tits up. If what they stand to lose is only a fraction of what they can potentially gain by keeping the club in this division (or by bouncing straight back should we go down) then from a risk/reward decision point it might make perfect sense.

The biggest risk our club faces in my opinion is if we go down this season or next then rather than selling players, clearing the debt and reducing the wage bill to adjust ourselves back to being a Championship club they might just throw the kitchen sink at trying to get back up.

If Mr Pace and ALK took that high risk strategy and failed then they would walk away out of pocket but more importantly our club could end up in a right mess and potentially go into admin and drop through the leagues

Not a lot we can do so just have to hope we stay up and trust if we do go down Mr Pace manages us carefully to give the best chance of getting back up whilst ensuring we can stay in the black and facilitate our debt

[Dinks]

Cheer up.

From what you post on here I just wish you would take your own advice and cheer the **** up yourself

[Newcastleclaret93]

How are they going to pay back the £100m or so they owe to the club?

Isn’t the debt in the clubs name not ALKs? If that is the case they don’t have to pay it back, the club does.

[Jamesy]

From what you post on here I just wish you would take your own advice and cheer the **** up yourself

Hey, leave him alone. That’s the only post of his that I have actually understood over the last few weeks!

[Jakubclaret]

Isn’t the debt in the clubs name not ALKs? If that is the case they don’t have to pay it back, the club does.

Played a blinder with that 1, I hate to agree but you are right if things go sh1tshaped ALK aren’t responsible & can pretty much walk away almost as if they wasn’t there in the first place.

[Tall Paul]

Isn’t the debt in the clubs name not ALKs? If that is the case they don’t have to pay it back, the club does.

How can ALK have acquired a £170m asset without putting any money of their own in and without borrowing any? They've either borrowed it from the club, which is what the reports seem to suggest or from another source of finance like MSD.

Either way they owe somebody a lot of money so KBRFC's suggestion that they could sell an asset for £30m that was valued at £170m when they bought it and walk away with a profit doesn't make any sense.

[Newcastleclaret93]

How can ALK have acquired a £170m asset without putting any money of their own in and without borrowing any? They've either borrowed it from the club, which is what the reports seem to suggest or from another source of finance like MSD.

Either way they owe somebody a lot of money so KBRFC's suggestion that they could sell an asset for £30m that was valued at £170m when they bought it and walk away with a profit doesn't make any sense.

Isn’t that the point Paul?

They have used the clubs reserve as a down payment and put the debt in the clubs name.

I guess we will find out when the news of the deal eventually breaks. Not a lot anyone can do it about it anyway

[Tall Paul]

Isn’t that the point Paul?

They have used the clubs reserve as a down payment and put the debt in the clubs name.

I guess we will find out when the news of the deal eventually breaks. Not a lot anyone can do it about it anyway

Isn't what the point?

Explain how ALK can acquire a £170m asset without using any of their own money or taking on debt themselves.

They can't have just taken money out of the club without an obligation to pay it back at some point, unless they take it as a dividend, which we know they haven't.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Isn't what the point?

Explain how ALK can acquire a £170m asset without using any of their own money or taking on debt themselves.

They can't have just taken money out of the club without an obligation to pay it back at some point, unless they take it as a dividend, which we know they haven't.

We don’t know they haven’t put money into the club?

[Tall Paul]

We don’t know they haven’t put money into the club?

What? I'm not sure what you're talking about, do you think I said that?

[gandhisflipflop]

Remember during the transfer window when this berk was just making stuff up about how the ownership works and how they do transfers, and that they were going to sell it a huge profit despite losing money, or something equally daft

Bear that in mind when you read stuff like this eh?

Probably one of those people whinging about people asset stripping the club, without realising that the training ground and turf moor is worthless in investment terms

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Was looking for something else and found this, nearly 12 mths earlier after yet another poor start to the season....

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... d#p1409925

[boatshed bill]

This is what p!$$es me off.
8 games in and people are trying to find 3 teams worse than us.
if this is all that matters what is the point?

[Jakubclaret]

We don’t know they haven’t put money into the club?

Or used a guarantor & by default if the loan isn’t paid back ALK won’t be directly responsible, it wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened, I must stress I’m not saying or implying that’s what’s taken place just stating the possibility, I should imagine the likes of Chester would know more but doesn’t seem to post as often.

[Spijed]

This is what p!$$es me off.
8 games in and people are trying to find 3 teams worse than us.
if this is all that matters what is the point?

What's the point of any team being in the Prem if you are not one of those sides who can win the league or get into Europe?

[houseboy]

Guess it depends what a new manager can get out of this team. For me they have some very good players and not surprised they finished mid table. Callum Wilson and St Maxime are match winning players

Good points. I thought about the manager situation too and maybe the new one (assuming there will be) might turn things round. But who would it be? Right about Wilson and St Maxime though…top players. St Maxime beat us on his own last season. In about two minutes.

[boatshed bill]

What's the point of any team being in the Prem if you are not one of those sides who can win the league or get into Europe?

Well, I guess making up the numbers and getting paid about £130m is fine ....
if that's what floats your boat

[elwaclaret]

Well, I guess making up the numbers and getting paid about £130m is fine ....
if that's what floats your boat

Alternatively…. We are competing at the highest level we Burnley Football Club, the whole club year after year defying the odds and budgets of most of the division below us. We are a town that has been ignored for the best part of my 50 years but that cannot be ignored anymore because we’re one of the best twenty teams in the country…. And the most popular league in the world.

[superdimitri]

I personally revel with the prospect of beating others with far more money than us... Which let's face it is 99% of teams.

Each game is pretty much like a cup fixture was for us in the championship because the gap in quality is still so high. 15 years ago the gap from championship to premier league is probably smaller than the gap in quality now between bottom premier league and top.
As Mr Pace says, we're the favorite underdog.
Results this season have sucked, but we have shown at times we can play better football.

[Jakubclaret]

Alternatively…. We are competing at the highest level we Burnley Football Club, the whole club year after year defying the odds and budgets of most of the division below us. We are a town that has been ignored for the best part of my 50 years but that cannot be ignored anymore because we’re one of the best twenty teams in the country…. And the most popular league in the world.

That’s irrelevant to the wider world it might be precious to us but nobody else gives a shiny sh1t & I’m including lots of other teams within the PL as well we might think we are relevant to others but we simply aren’t.

[Silkyskills1]

Good points. I thought about the manager situation too and maybe the new one (assuming there will be) might turn things round. But who would it be? Right about Wilson and St Maxime though…top players. St Maxime beat us on his own last season. In about two minutes.

He did but he's not done much since and certainly not this season otherwise their league position would look somewhat different.

[Newcastleclaret93]

He did but he's not done much since and certainly not this season otherwise their league position would look somewhat different.

It is Newcastles defence that is letting them down.

St Max has 5 goals contributions in 8 games. Our entire team has scored 5 goals this season.

[Silkyskills1]

Are 'goal contributions' another term for 'assists' or do they mean that somewhere in the move to a.goal.he touched the ball?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Are 'goal contributions' another term for 'assists' or do they mean that somewhere in the move to a.goal.he touched the ball?

2 goals and 3 assists in 8 games.

[Silkyskills1]

Fair enough but he hasn't exactly got the city in the palms of his hands yet. Two clubs desperately struggling with one of them having funds that will soon alleviate the problems.

[boatshed bill]

What's the point of any team being in the Prem if you are not one of those sides who can win the league or get into Europe?

A very good question.
Do you have the answer? as far as I can see it's all about making the numbers up.
Also don't forget; the big names would love a smaller EPL (or athev ESL), one which could easily exclude Burnley FC.

[HahaYeah]

It's about doing the best you can.

[elwaclaret]

That’s irrelevant to the wider world it might be precious to us but nobody else gives a shiny sh1t & I’m including lots of other teams within the PL as well we might think we are relevant to others but we simply aren’t.

I was talking about how I look at it. I have no interest whatsoever in what other fans think of us, I’m not that needy

[KRBFC]

Alternatively…. We are competing at the highest level we Burnley Football Club, the whole club year after year defying the odds and budgets of most of the division below us. We are a town that has been ignored for the best part of my 50 years but that cannot be ignored anymore because we’re one of the best twenty teams in the country…. And the most popular league in the world.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, I'm not sure most of the Championship have a wage budget of £75m-85m though.