São Paulo Grand Prix, controversy already

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:56 pm

After a really gripping quali, yesterday, it’s all in the air today.
Hamilton’s car failed the post quali DRS check, which should mean he goes to the back of the grid for the sprint race.
However Max actually touched his rear wing after quali which is against the regulations as well.
Suggestions are Merc are blaming Max and the FIA cannot prove he didn’t do it.
Sounds like there has been fireworks overnight, stewards don’t seem to want to make a decision. But with 3 hours to the sprint race they are going to have to.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:07 pm

Get them both to the back of the grid,that will be much more fun than the usual procession

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:22 pm

No driver has ever been given a grid penalty for touching another car. So that’s unlikely, unfortunately.

Im_not_Robbie_Blake · Post by **Im_not_Robbie_Blake** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:23 pm

I once touched a car. It wasn't that exciting, to be honest.

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:39 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:22 pm
No driver has ever been given a grid penalty for touching another car. So that’s unlikely, unfortunately.

No but Merc who's rear wing makes a thousand lbs of downforce at 200mph or whatever will be claiming that Mr. Verstappen is SOOOO STRONG he damaged it when he almost touched it.

...and they'll get away with it. The cheating lizards.

Honestly, both teams are as bad as each other and its embarrassing, frankly.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:40 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:22 pm
No driver has ever been given a grid penalty for touching another car. So that’s unlikely, unfortunately.

There's a first time for everything...bring it on

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:43 pm

Max fined and no grid penalty

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:50 pm

Ver fined €50,000 because Mercedes were found to be cheating.

I hope this penalty is retrospectively applied to every driver whoever touched anothers car in parc ferme.

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:51 pm

Verstappen fined

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:56 pm

Best comment on Reddit

"Inspector Seb would've been bankrupted by now."

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:57 pm

Im_not_Robbie_Blake wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:23 pm
I once touched a car. It wasn't that exciting, to be honest.

I've touched Senna's McLaren, MP4/4, it was exciting/emotional.

cbx750 · Post by **cbx750** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:00 pm

Red Bull breaks your wings.
I'll get me coat.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:08 pm

Pointless fine, it's pocket change to them. They'll still put Hamilton to the back of the grid to give the championship to Verstappen.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:11 pm

Hamilton disqualified from qualifying! Big blow!

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:12 pm

There we go. They've even managed to ruin the sprint race as well as the championship.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:14 pm

The problem with Hamilton's car was not his fault, should be Mercedes being deducted points from the Constructors, not punishing Hamilton himself.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:17 pm

claretburns wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:14 pm
The problem with Hamilton's car was not his fault, should be Mercedes being deducted points from the Constructors, not punishing Hamilton himself.

Aren't the drivers incredibly interwined with their mechanics and so should know their cars inside out....genuine question!

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:23 pm

ClaretDiver wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:17 pm
Aren't the drivers incredibly interwined with their mechanics and so should know their cars inside out....genuine question!

It’s a fine art. The 85mm rule for the DRS , also has a 10 Newton force limit.
So the checking kit was shown on Sky during second practice. Whirls the it appears the gap was just about 85mm it took a lot less than the 10 Newton force to push the 85mm check ping gauge through. All other cars on the grid were checked and passed.
So a very fine margin of failure, but a failure all the same to the regulations.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:28 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:23 pm
It’s a fine art. The 85mm rule for the DRS , also has a 10 Newton force limit.
So the checking kit was shown on Sky during second practice. Whirls the it appears the gap was just about 85mm it took a lot less than the 10 Newton force to push the 85mm check ping gauge through. All other cars on the grid were checked and passed.
So a very fine margin of failure, but a failure all the same to the regulations.

Thanks LBC....so Lewis would not have known about this....I can sort of see why people are saying he should not be penalised but his team should have got it right so shame on them!

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:32 pm

ClaretDiver wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:28 pm
Thanks LBC....so Lewis would not have known about this....I can sort of see why people are saying he should not be penalised but his team should have got it right so shame on them!

No way Lewis would have known, apparently the team checked it before Quali, which I would expect that to be a pre quali check. However, it either moved or broke somehow in quali meaning it failed afterwards. The whole rear wing had to be changed for second practice.

Shaggy · Post by **Shaggy** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:24 pm

I don’t know which would give me more joy, Howe getting relegated again or Hamilton missing out on the world championship title because of his teams “cough” cheating.

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:36 pm

I doubt Lewis knew about this , he’s almost Mansell-esque in his ignorance of the machinery

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:04 pm

What a drive from Hamilton!

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:06 pm

Superb half hour that. Hamilton will be wondering why Bottas couldn't perform like that last week...

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:15 pm

There is never any doubt about how good a driver Lewis is.
Should be on the podium tomorrow.

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:19 pm

people on UTC praising Hamilton ... whatever next

Not been watching it tonight sounds like it was a cracker ... great drive Valteri Bottas and last to 5th by Lewis ... AH - MAY - ZING

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:26 pm

Great aggressive driving by Lewis , though his new engine is clearly something else . The ease the car moved through even the Ferrari and McLarens was impressive . Even Bottas’s “ old “ unit was holding the Red Bull

Craigyp01 · Post by **Craigyp01** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:19 pm

As a Verstappen fan I'm really hoping that Perez can hold up Hamilton tomorrow, but I can't see any scenario where Lewis doesn't finish on the podium.

Hamilton did extremely well today but I can't help but feel that some waved the white flag to let him through a little early so not to lose track position further.

Anyway, it all makes for a great race tomorrow.

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:29 pm

Well played Moaning Max & Whinging Horner. €50,000 well spent.

Craigyp01 · Post by **Craigyp01** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:34 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:29 pm
Well played Moaning Max & Whinging Horner. €50,000 well spent.

How do you come to that conclusion? Is it their fault that Mercedes messed up, at best; cheated at worst?

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:42 pm

Craigyp01 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:34 pm
How do you come to that conclusion? Is it their fault that Mercedes messed up, at best; cheated at worst?

Nothing to do with Max breaking the rules by touching Lewis car. Therefore bringing something that is impossible to see very much into focus.

The FIA agreed that the same design had passed previous tests and said they were satisfied that the design met the intent of the regulation, stressing there was no indication of "any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design."
While agreeing that the wing failed the test because something had "gone wrong", the FIA decided to penalise Hamilton and Mercedes, adding: "it shall be no defence.

So no, no cheating. Max Verstappen & Horner are the biggest cry baby’s in F1.

BTW. I’m no fan of Hamilton.

Craigyp01 · Post by **Craigyp01** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:50 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:42 pm
Nothing to do with Max breaking the rules by touching Lewis car. Therefore bringing something that is impossible to see very much into focus.

The FIA agreed that the same design had passed previous tests and said they were satisfied that the design met the intent of the regulation, stressing there was no indication of "any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design."
While agreeing that the wing failed the test because something had "gone wrong", the FIA decided to penalise Hamilton and Mercedes, adding: "it shall be no defence.

So no, no cheating. Max Verstappen & Horner are the biggest cry baby’s in F1.

BTW. I’m no fan of Hamilton.

The rear wing failed the test. Not sure how that is a result of Verstappen or Horner. These are tests that are done on all cars, as was the case this weekend. I personally think there was nonotger decision that could have been taken other than to put Hamilton at the back of the sprint race.

And the rule you refer to for Verstappen is a sporting rule which has never been enforced until today and could have no bearing on the race.

It's a shame that the best title battle in years may come down to such arguments.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:56 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:42 pm
Nothing to do with Max breaking the rules by touching Lewis car. Therefore bringing something that is impossible to see very much into focus.

The FIA agreed that the same design had passed previous tests and said they were satisfied that the design met the intent of the regulation, stressing there was no indication of "any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design."
While agreeing that the wing failed the test because something had "gone wrong", the FIA decided to penalise Hamilton and Mercedes, adding: "it shall be no defence.

So no, no cheating. Max Verstappen & Horner are the biggest cry baby’s in F1.

BTW. I’m no fan of Hamilton.

Neither Max not Horner complained to the FIA, it was found on a normal routine post Quali check. The only complication came because Max touched it in park ferme but Seb does it all the time. But because it was found outside of specification they had to fine him and the rules will be tightened in future.
Merc made an error, a rare one. The stewards had no choice but to put him to the back of the grid. Would have set a dangerous precedent.

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:08 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:56 pm
Neither Max not Horner complained to the FIA, it was found on a normal routine post Quali check. The only complication came because Max touched it in park ferme but Seb does it all the time. But because it was found outside of specification they had to fine him and the rules will be tightened in future.
Merc made an error, a rare one. The stewards had no choice but to put him to the back of the grid. Would have set a dangerous precedent.

I never said they complained to the FIA. But Verstappens actions clearly put it firmly in focus.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:18 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:08 pm
I never said they complained to the FIA. But Verstappens actions clearly put it firmly in focus.

I disagree, it was checked as a routine in the last 3 races out of four.

Craigyp01 · Post by **Craigyp01** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:20 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:08 pm
I never said they complained to the FIA. But Verstappens actions clearly put it firmly in focus.

All cars were always going to be tested though. The 'inspection' by Verstappen had no bearing on that. No appeal by Mercedes is telling.

Vestappen and Red Bull are no doubt competitive but are not to blame for Mercedes downfall here. Anyway, Hamilton will make it back tomorrow with his improved engine and this track.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:30 am

Horner said in interview that he didn't think there was any foul play by Mercedes, and that the rear wing was not why Hamilton was so much further ahead. I have to be honest, I'm not sure what other options the Stewards had. It's a DRS friendly circuit, so checking the open wing gap was always likely. Once a breach was identified, of course he would be disqualified. Mercedes have put it down to the wing breaking or failing during the session. The stewards have accepted that. Red Bull have accepted that. And nobody appealed. Makes tonight very exciting tho.

Hamilton can still win it from here provided he gets through some of that upper midfield. Luckily Tsunoda is quite far back. But he is very close to Alonso, Ricciardo and Vettel. And they won't yield. So a good start is critical. As is Bottas holding up Max. If all that happens, Hamilton can easily take them all over 71 laps. He was only 2 or 3 laps off getting Perez, and maybe even Sainz I think last night, and that was from last within 24 laps and no pit stops to utilise

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:39 am

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:30 am
Horner said in interview that he didn't think there was any foul play by Mercedes, and that the rear wing was not why Hamilton was so much further ahead. I have to be honest, I'm not sure what other options the Stewards had. It's a DRS friendly circuit, so checking the open wing gap was always likely. Once a breach was identified, of course he would be disqualified. Mercedes have put it down to the wing breaking or failing during the session. The stewards have accepted that. Red Bull have accepted that. And nobody appealed. Makes tonight very exciting tho.

Hamilton can still win it from here provided he gets through some of that upper midfield. Luckily Tsunoda is quite far back. But he is very close to Alonso, Ricciardo and Vettel. And they won't yield. So a good start is critical. As is Bottas holding up Max. If all that happens, Hamilton can easily take them all over 71 laps. He was only 2 or 3 laps off getting Perez, and maybe even Sainz I think last night, and that was from last within 24 laps and no pit stops to utilise

Great post. My thoughts exactly. Tonight will be a cracker. Just hope he doesn’t get taken out at the start/climbing the field.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:00 pm

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:39 am
Great post. My thoughts exactly. Tonight will be a cracker. Just hope he doesn’t get taken out at the start/climbing the field.

Drivers down the field don’t want to be the one that puts a championship contender out of the race. I think that helped Lewis a little yesterday and will today. I agree should be a good race , Lewis on the Podium hopefully.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:45 pm

Lewis should get through the field easily enough, the other drivers, apart from Bottas and the two Red Bulls, are in their own battles in the Constructors with Ferrari and McLaren fighting for 3rd and Alpha Tauri and Alpine fighting for 5th, they won't want to waste to much time defending Hamilton.

They will put up a slight defence, especially the Alpha Tauri, but they won't want to jeopardise their own races by trying to hold up Hamilton for 6/7 laps etc.

By the time the first pit stops come around I expect Hamilton to be at least 4th, possibly 2nd if Bottas allows him through and he can get Perez. The damage will come if Verstappen gets Bottas early and drives off into the distance, Hamilton needs Bottas to show up today and drive like he did in the Sprint yesterday and not how he has been driving all season, but even if Hamilton only gets 2nd at the end, add in fastest lap and the title race certainly isn't over.

It is shaping up to be a great race, as Interlagos always is with many overtaking opportunities, the probably one slight downfall is that it is expected to be a cool dry race so no rain to interfere, nor will it be to hot causing early tyre degradation.

Hamilton will be hoping for a clean start, get through the field up to 3rd or 2nd and just before that first pit stop a safety car to come out, but as a Verstappen fan I really hope that doesn't happen, but either way we should be getting a great race when lights go out at 5pm.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:53 pm

I haven't been this excited about a race in ages. Interlagos is a superb track. Always seems to deliver something

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:40 pm

Toto Wolff is definitely not a happy man judging by his conversation with Martin Brundle on track.

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:06 pm

First lap, Hamilton from P10 to P6, Red Bull 1-2 at the front as both take Bottas, puncture for Norris and already a lap behind.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:08 pm

This is brilliant so far from Hamilton

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:11 pm

Hamilton is going to win this as long as he doesn't crash or car gives up on him.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:11 pm

Safety car - excellent.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:11 pm

claretburns wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:45 pm

Hamilton will be hoping for a clean start, get through the field up to 3rd or 2nd and just before that first pit stop a safety car to come out, but as a Verstappen fan I really hope that doesn't happen, but either way we should be getting a great race when lights go out at 5pm.

What are the lottery numbers for next week please lol!

claretburns · Post by **claretburns** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:11 pm

Safety car due to debris on the track, Hamilton will take Perez on this restart.

tarkys_ears · Post by **tarkys_ears** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:23 pm

Boooooooooooooring

Come on, get racing!!!

Bosscat · Post by **Bosscat** » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:31 pm

tarkys_ears wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:23 pm
Boooooooooooooring

Come on, get racing!!!

You were saying

Come on Lewis get your skates on