HS2

[Taffy on the wing]

I'll tell you what I was thinking.

That I'd avoid voting for a party that has a history of shitting on the northern working classes?









The Labour Party......

GROW UP!

[Taffy on the wing]

High speed rail is an ongoing project in California, the original cost was slated to be $33 Billion & it would go from LA to San Francisco......The current cost estimate is over $100 Billion & that's just to get half way & nobody wants to go half way!... If it EVER gets completed the price of a ticket is expected to exceed that of a plane ticket & take at least twice as long. Add to that our Earthquake problems & it's hard to see any reason for it apart from corruption.
Electrified lines like the East coast rail service from Kings cross to Leeds in 2 Hours is plenty fast enough!

[Lancasterclaret]

I wish there was some way so that if someone quotes someone you've blocked, you didn't see their posts

Anyway, still think that this is an opportunity missed for a genuine transport and infrastructure revolution for the north

At least HS2 is still going to Manchester, which is something at least

[Damo]

Without wanting to break the politics rule on here, have we ever had a government that didn't waste copious amounts of money on stupid things?
I personally think this project isn't as bad as what the alternatives would have spent on gender inclusive toilets and turnip plantations.
Let's get back to the point shall we

[mikeS]

The 94 billion would be better spent on electrifying the entire network, getting shut off deisel, improving trains, stations, extending platforms, better car parking and facilities for freight.
2hr 20 mins from Leeds to London isn't that bad is it?

[Hipper]

Surely in government there is going to be a major reappraisal of finances to deal with what really is a Climate Emergency. On top of that there has been the un-budgeted costs of Covid.

I'm surprised that an announcement on HS2 has come so quickly but I would guess such projects would need to be looked at both for finances and carbon footprint (from both its construction and potential usage effect). As some work on HS2 has started and there may be penalties or money already spent that justifies its partial completion.

Many say rail privatisation has been a disaster. I'm not so sure. The numbers of passengers seems to have doubled in the twenty years or so since British Rail operated. Would BR have coped with that?

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/uk ... l-doubles/

[RingoMcCartney]

GROW UP!

I did , a long time ago!

I stopped voting for a party that turned its back on the working classes, sneered at their patriotism, became obsessed with gender and race. A party that's only interested in the blinkered, parochial views of ivory towered, middle class , metropolitan bubble dwellers.

Labour used to be the working class party.

Now, it's an Islington dinner party.

[Lancasterclaret]

Without wanting to break the politics rule on here, have we ever had a government that didn't waste copious amounts of money on stupid things?
I personally think this project isn't as bad as what the alternatives would have spent on gender inclusive toilets and turnip plantations.
Let's get back to the point shall we

Certainly its a valid point (the first bit!)

But I'll just repeat what I said to Kate, with the aims we have for the future, it makes no sense not to spend money on something like this, and that is before you get into the political bits about broken promises (Grant Shapps was still promising this is March this year)

[aggi]

Watching Grant Shapps this morning there's going to be a hell of a lot of spin to convince people that spending half of the money and cutting back on the original plans (that were repeatedly sold as vital and definitely happening) is a good thing.

The sad thing is it's so obvious this was going to happen, you can look back at the threads on here and and see just how this was going to go.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I think posters are making a mistake to target political parties over this.

I’m not saying this bunch have done well or badly, probably the latter, but I'm just saying that we underprice the impact that the civil servants and other bureaucrats have, under successive governments of different stripes.

You can hear the civil service discussions now - “show me the business case”, “do an environmental impact study”, “I can prove we’ll have to put up taxes to fund this”, “the north won’t suddenly get new businesses due to this” ———-> so the politicians get this tsunami of negativity, factor in the general competence of rail companies, and its hard to see them going ahead with much of this spending, not least because it won’t be finished until they’ve retired.

Under New Labour GDP per Capita in Lancashire went from 19% under national averages to 23% under. Same for similar regions. ALL governments have struggled to transform regional areas. The above gives a clue as to why. The ‘live’ issue is how do we change this, and, equally important, which leader wants to?

[Lancasterclaret]

I think posters are making a mistake to target political parties over this.

I’m not saying this bunch have done well or badly, probably the latter, but I'm just saying that we underprice the impact that the civil servants and other bureaucrats have, under successive governments of different stripes.

You can hear the civil service discussions now - “show me the business case”, “do an environmental impact study”, “I can prove we’ll have to put up taxes to fund this”, “the north won’t suddenly get new businesses due to this” ———-> so the politicians get this tsunami of negativity, factor in the general competence of rail companies, and its hard to see them going ahead with much of this spending, not least because it won’t be finished until they’ve retired.

Under New Labour GDP per Capita in Lancashire went from 19% under national averages to 23% under. Same for similar regions. ALL governments have struggled to transform regional areas. The above gives a clue as to why. The ‘live’ issue is how do we change this, and, equally important, which leader wants to?

I can see the spin from here CC sadly. **** poor that a poster like yourself should blame civil servants for elected officials decisions

[RingoMcCartney]

I think posters are making a mistake to target political parties over this.

I’m not saying this bunch have done well or badly, probably the latter, but I'm just saying that we underprice the impact that the civil servants and other bureaucrats have, under successive governments of different stripes.

You can hear the civil service discussions now - “show me the business case”, “do an environmental impact study”, “I can prove we’ll have to put up taxes to fund this”, “the north won’t suddenly get new businesses due to this” ———-> so the politicians get this tsunami of negativity, factor in the general competence of rail companies, and its hard to see them going ahead with much of this spending, not least because it won’t be finished until they’ve retired.

Under New Labour GDP per Capita in Lancashire went from 19% under national averages to 23% under. Same for similar regions. ALL governments have struggled to transform regional areas. The above gives a clue as to why. The ‘live’ issue is how do we change this, and, equally important, which leader wants to?

A great post

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I can see the spin from here CC sadly. **** poor that a poster like yourself should blame civil servants for elected officials decisions

Ministers are temporarily in the post because they're elected and then given a job that many don't really have the experience or knowledge for, many Civil servants are there for a lot longer, many for their whole career and it's been made clear they don't really move around within the civil service.

[Lancasterclaret]

Ministers are temporarily in the post because they're elected and then given a job that many don't really have the experience or knowledge for, many Civil servants are there for a lot longer, many for their whole career and it's been made clear they don't really move around within the civil service.

Again, its very poor to go down the blaming the civil servants for elected politicians mistakes

It sounds like the sort of thing the Sun would use as a headline

Maybe, just maybe, we need to take more care in who we elect into government?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Again, its very poor to go down the blaming the civil servants for elected politicians mistakes

It sounds like the sort of thing the Sun would use as a headline

Maybe, just maybe, we need to take more care in who we elect into government?

Yes maybe we do, but it makes no odds who's minister when they're rarely in that position for more than a full term.
They're usually just the figurehead and that's how plenty of us see them.

I'm happy to blame both, but the civil service shouldn't be immune from criticism.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Again, its very poor to go down the blaming the civil servants for elected politicians mistakes

It sounds like the sort of thing the Sun would use as a headline

Maybe, just maybe, we need to take more care in who we elect into government?

Therein lies the real problem, we only have 2 parties who can be voted in and both are absolute dogs**t

It is like being asked if you want poking in eyes or kicking in the balls.

[Lancasterclaret]

Therein lies the real problem, we only have 2 parties who can be voted in and both are absolute dogs**t

It is like being asked if you want poking in eyes or kicking in the balls.

I for one am hoping that we somehow get a party elected who then change the voting system so that every party has a chance of getting seats

I'm prepared to put up with the risk of UKIP type MPs (or Communists for balance) for possibly a much more representative government, which hopefully would also be halfway competent

[Pstotto]

Vote for who you like but it won't change corporate media and the four browsers of the Apocalypse from trying to convince everyone to bow to digital persuasion as if they were media itself, which of course is stupid.

The fact that simply geometric facts are ignored in theory of media will tell you the totalitarian system in place, they want for keeps.

[Pstotto]

This is a government that wants the French to run our nuclear power and the Chinese to run our communication networks.

[Pstotto]

In other words the invasion taking place is almost complete.

[elwaclaret]

I for one am hoping that we somehow get a party elected who then change the voting system so that every party has a chance of getting seats

I'm prepared to put up with the risk of UKIP type MPs (or Communists for balance) for possibly a much more representative government, which hopefully would also be halfway competent

UKIP and Communists for balance? Odd balance you are looking for. I had no idea UKIP was still a thing but are extremes really to be encouraged? There are very few true Marxists, and where do you draw the line at accepting far right, BNP or Combat18?

What we need is a system where in order to stand for Parliament you have had to work in the real world not pass an exam and have no sense of the difference reality of life for their constituents. Boris has side stepped Parliament more than enough without encouraging extremists who have no love for the democratic process already under sustained attack.

[TheFamilyCat]

In summary then:

Politicians take the credit for successes.

Civil servants take the blame for mistakes.

[Lancasterclaret]

UKIP and Communists for balance? Odd balance you are looking for. I had no idea UKIP was still a thing but are extremes really to be encouraged? There are very few true Marxists, and where do you draw the line at accepting far right, BNP or Combat18?

What we need is a system where in order to stand for Parliament you have had to work in the real world not pass an exam and have no sense of the difference reality of life for their constituents. Boris has side stepped Parliament more than enough without encouraging extremists who have no love for the democratic process already under sustained attack.

Not encouraged, but if 10% of the population want to vote for them, then they really should be represented

The problem we have is clearly massive complacency from politicians (the last two weeks being an absolute classic example of people thinking they somehow deserve to be treated differently from everyone else) and that tends to mean that most voters really don't give a **** about who they vote for, which results in huge majorities in some areas and no pressure on the MP to do anything

[Lancasterclaret]

In summary then:

Politicians take the credit for successes.

Civil servants take the blame for mistakes.

Yup, how crap did Olly Robbins get for just trying to do what he was told to be elected politicians for example?

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes maybe we do, but it makes no odds who's minister when they're rarely in that position for more than a full term.
They're usually just the figurehead and that's how plenty of us see them.

I'm happy to blame both, but the civil service shouldn't be immune from criticism.

Its a very dangerous situation where people think that somehow civil servants decide policy

Why do you think that Sid?

[aggi]

Jesus, that went very quickly from Boris has betrayed the North to there's nothing the poor bloke could do, it was all those nasty civil servants fault.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Its a very dangerous situation where people think that somehow civil servants decide policy

Why do you think that Sid?

I don't think they decide policy, nowhere have I said that, I just don't think they're very good at getting stuff done and they continue to get a free pass from any criticism.

If a pen pusher stays in a job for a long time there is a risk they get comfy, become immune from criticism and lack any real drive or creativity because rocking the boat isn't wanted and the top person, in this instance a minister, takes all the flak.

I've seen it in several businesses over the years.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't think they decide policy, nowhere have I said that, I just don't think they're very good at getting stuff done and they continue to get a free pass from any criticism.

If a pen pusher stays in a job for a long time there is a risk they get comfy, become immune from criticism and lack any real drive or creativity because rocking the boat isn't wanted and the top person, in this instance a minister, takes all the flak.

I've seen it in several businesses over the years.

Thats fine, I was kinda looking for concrete examples when a politician has been let down by the civil servants he or she is in charge of

I suspect you are probably getting a bit confused between a civil servant saying to the politician something along the lines of "well, I understand you want to do that, but its against the law" which apparently isn't what they are there for according to certain media outlets

[JohnMcGreal]

I had no idea UKIP was still a thing

They're in government.

[Devils_Advocate]

Jesus, that went very quickly from Boris has betrayed the North to there's nothing the poor bloke could do, it was all those nasty civil servants fault.

So much for the good memory us northern folk are meant to have. It can't even seem to last just a single UTC's thread

[CrosspoolClarets]

Re: my civil servant post (been a pet hate of mine throughout my career)

The Dept for Transport has over 18,000 staff, including a huge number working for HS2 Ltd, which is wholly owned by the DFT despite sounding like a private enterprise. There are just 6 MPs / Lords. The latter do high level strategy, they don’t do the detail. Many a time the permanent secretary, Bernadette Kelly, will I predict turn around and say to the minister “sorry, we just can’t make that happen”.

In 2017 the DFT produced an “economic case” of 96 pages for HS2, part of the “5 case model” for business cases outlined by the Treasury.

The thing that is noticeable in that document is how the value (benefits over cost, basically) is weighted far more towards the North West rather than Yorkshire and the North East.

I’d suggest:

1. I’ve done enough business cases in my time to see the flaws in this one. We could all think of variables not measured for a start, e.g. factoring in the new free ports in the East and the potential for economic growth from it, IF the transport is there.

2. If the DFT has produced this pre-Boris, and sent it off to Treasury, it is then darn hard to get approval to go ahead as costs rise and delivery is delayed. Technically, a minister could enforce this regardless of the economic case, but they’d be on a hiding to nothing. The Treasury has to approve the business case, that’s the rule. That’s why I say all fingerprints here belong to the Treasury.

If there is a culpable MP, it’s Sunak. He would have the clout to force this through by revisiting the business case but I don’t think he believes in it, he’s a traditional cost cutting Tory, unlike Johnson who I bet is gutted this isn’t happening, and I agree, if it doesn't happen under him it won’t happen under any Tory.

So there is a small, small window for Labour to come in and get this done, I’m happy to vote that way, probably will, but for reasons above I can’t see it. That means even worse over-capacity east of the Pennines with HS2 trains running on existing tracks and jamming it up even more than ever. It will be catastrophic.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Oh just one more observation from the 2017 business case for HS2…..

Economic benefits split by region:

Yorkshire and Humber.- 10% (why it was scrapped I predict)
North West - 18%

….and among the rest…..

LONDON - 40%

Proof that the whole case has been skewed to ensure the London bit goes ahead. Do we really, instinctively, feel that London will see 4x the benefits of Yorkshire? Not on your nelly. Not if you ranked it by quality of life and factored in those things.

That’s nothing to do with politicians. It’s an inherent bias built into the whole way of doing these things, of which I have seen many examples over the years. It’s a total stitch up.

[evensteadiereddie]

And, as was said at the time, those who "lent" their vote to the Tories deserve everything coming their way. Never mind, though, if you're getting on a bit, the North's done really well in the Government's new social care reform plans.............oh, hang on.

Back on topic, the HS2 goodies promised and then repromised time after time were never going to happen. I did think there'd be a real chance of a decent cross-Pennine line capable of decent volumes of both freight and passenger traffic but, alas, no.

Nothing to do with civil servants, it's a political decision where the Government are assuming the new Tory Northern towns are stupid enough to be fooled again next time. Judging by some of the responses on here, they may well be right.

[RingoMcCartney]

So much for the good memory us northern folk are meant to have. It can't even seem to last just a single UTC's thread

You seem to have forgotten what I actually said.

Boris has written in the Yorkshire Post today boasting of speeding up travel times from Leeds to London. What he and the London centric establishment don't realise is that one of the biggest concentrations of people in Europe live 60 miles north and south of the M62 corridor . They want to get from Liverpool to Newcastle, from Carlisle to Sheffield, from Hull to Stoke. Believe it or not Boris, for millions of Northerners, London is not the epicentre of the world! He and the Establishment simply don't get it.

I know you and aggi are attempting to say people have switched the blame for this debacle, from the Tories to the civil service. Unfortunately London centric "establishment" means the current government, previous governments who had ample opportunity to invest in the North and the civil service.

Nice try though!

Enjoy your teams game at the weekend, and if you can't enjoy your teams game, cheer the Clarets on as alternative!

[Devils_Advocate]

You seem to have forgotten what I actually said.



I know you and aggi are attempting to say people have switched the blame for this debacle, from the Tories to the civil service. Unfortunately London centric "establishment" means the current government, previous governments who had ample opportunity to invest in the North and the civil service.

Nice try though!

Enjoy your teams game at the weekend, and if you can't enjoy your teams game, cheer the Clarets on as alternative!

Not sure why you'd think I was talking about you. You have no credibility or relevance anymore after everything you've acted as a cheerleader for over the last few years has been shown to be an absolute disaster.

Your only purpose on here these days is to get threads deleted because of the disgusting bile you post and you should be thankful Ive given you the time of day and responded as you're really not worth my time

[taio]

Another thread that belongs in the gutter.

[SouthLondonexile]

Haven't they said they're going to invest £98 billion improving other rail links across the north instead of connecting HS2 up to Leeds?

Isnt that a better idea?
People were banging on about that link to Manchester's needing to be reopened for years, so aren't more of those things needed?

The whole issue we thought was about levelling up between the North and South. Crucial to this is the connectivity between East and West of the Pennines principally a direct intercity link between Manchester and Leeds, taking in Bradford along the way. This was promised and it’s not happening now.
All we are getting is a watered down version of this.
It will hinder Burnley’s future prosperity, it will hinder Blackburn’s prosperity.
Never trust these jokers I have told my children over the years in fact since they were born. Same old promises and same old corruption and same old same old

[Damo]

I'm wondering how long it will be before people start offering to meet for a straightener in wetherspoons before the Palace game

[Damo]

We are less than 3 beers away I reckon

[Bordeauxclaret]

I'm wondering how long it will be before people start offering to meet for a straightener in wetherspoons before the Palace game

Big Window surely.

[aggi]

Re: my civil servant post (been a pet hate of mine throughout my career)

The Dept for Transport has over 18,000 staff, including a huge number working for HS2 Ltd, which is wholly owned by the DFT despite sounding like a private enterprise. There are just 6 MPs / Lords. The latter do high level strategy, they don’t do the detail. Many a time the permanent secretary, Bernadette Kelly, will I predict turn around and say to the minister “sorry, we just can’t make that happen”.

In 2017 the DFT produced an “economic case” of 96 pages for HS2, part of the “5 case model” for business cases outlined by the Treasury.

The thing that is noticeable in that document is how the value (benefits over cost, basically) is weighted far more towards the North West rather than Yorkshire and the North East.

I’d suggest:

1. I’ve done enough business cases in my time to see the flaws in this one. We could all think of variables not measured for a start, e.g. factoring in the new free ports in the East and the potential for economic growth from it, IF the transport is there.

2. If the DFT has produced this pre-Boris, and sent it off to Treasury, it is then darn hard to get approval to go ahead as costs rise and delivery is delayed. Technically, a minister could enforce this regardless of the economic case, but they’d be on a hiding to nothing. The Treasury has to approve the business case, that’s the rule. That’s why I say all fingerprints here belong to the Treasury.

If there is a culpable MP, it’s Sunak. He would have the clout to force this through by revisiting the business case but I don’t think he believes in it, he’s a traditional cost cutting Tory, unlike Johnson who I bet is gutted this isn’t happening, and I agree, if it doesn't happen under him it won’t happen under any Tory.

So there is a small, small window for Labour to come in and get this done, I’m happy to vote that way, probably will, but for reasons above I can’t see it. That means even worse over-capacity east of the Pennines with HS2 trains running on existing tracks and jamming it up even more than ever. It will be catastrophic.

Setting aside the suggestion that Johnson has no power over the treasury, none of this explains not fulfilling the promise of the East-West Leeds-Manchester route.

As an aside, I know a few civil servants (including one who was quite high up in the DfT working on trains) and I think you may be overestimating the extent to which they can push back against the ministers (in fact we'd probably get a lot more done if the civil service had a lot more autonomy and didn't have to change their direction when each new minister comes in).

[RingoMcCartney]

Not sure why you'd think I was talking about you. You have no credibility or relevance anymore after everything you've acted as a cheerleader for over the last few years has been shown to be an absolute disaster.

Your only purpose on here these days is to get threads deleted because of the disgusting bile, ( I'm clearly making stuff up and have absolutely nothing to back this up, but we'll gloss over that) you post and you should be thankful Ive given you the time of day and responded as you're really not worth my time

The Left are a funny old lot.

I criticise the Government and then get criticised for criticising the Government!

No pleasing some......

Enjoy cheering on the mighty Clarets if you don't get the chance to support your own lot!

COYC, a brace from Maxwell please.