If this is true then the sooner we get the old board back the better.

“Up north”

Can I just say- Everyone knew this back when Pace & Co signed and bought the club. It’s a structured takeover. Nothing has changed since when they took over besides they are waiting for TV money.We knew then that they didn’t have all the money. First of all, this proves that Pace & Co aren’t pocketing player sale money. (I.E. Wood). Second, they knew ahead of time that they had to be active in the market in January. Now, after Woods sale more than ever. We knew they needed TV money to fund the deal. Stay up or go down they have a contingency. They initially sought out championship clubs to work with because the finance wasn’t great. Garlick has an emergency pull cord at any point. “All parties were aligned and in agreement.” So in reality, nothings changed. They haven’t missed their payment so, not to be worried yet.

Also- if I was say, a Saudi backed team with infinite money, and I knew my opponent has a decent chance of staying up over than me but has a glaring spot that doesn’t look good I’d exploit that. Id encourage tabloids to pop up etc. this casting doubt to any prospective signings. I’d also buy their lead goal scorer even if I don’t necessarily want him because I know it will make it difficult.

I swear, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m proven wrong if it be the case but I believe we are on the cusp of player purchases and, nothing changes until the folks owed money raise red flags. So far not one has been made by anyone who has been owes money including MSD holdings or whatever.

They are probably saying to Garlick that we need this fodder to stay up because they (our new owners) aren’t loaded.

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

Just my two cents and I’m biased because I’m American but there is no need to panic until the window closes and the only person we’ve brought in is Andy Carroll.

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Can I just say- Everyone knew this back when Pace & Co signed and bought the club. It’s a structured takeover. Nothing has changed since when they took over besides they are waiting for TV money.We knew then that they didn’t have all the money. First of all, this proves that Pace & Co aren’t pocketing player sale money. (I.E. Wood). Second, they knew ahead of time that they had to be active in the market in January. Now, after Woods sale more than ever. We knew they needed TV money to fund the deal. Stay up or go down they have a contingency. They initially sought out championship clubs to work with because the finance wasn’t great. Garlick has an emergency pull cord at any point. “All parties were aligned and in agreement.” So in reality, nothings changed. They haven’t missed their payment so, not to be worried yet.

Also- if I was say, a Saudi backed team with infinite money, and I knew my opponent has a decent chance of staying up over than me but has a glaring spot that doesn’t look good I’d exploit that. Id encourage tabloids to pop up etc. this casting doubt to any prospective signings. I’d also buy their lead goal scorer even if I don’t necessarily want him because I know it will make it difficult.

I swear, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m proven wrong if it be the case but I believe we are on the cusp of player purchases and, nothing changes until the folks owed money raise red flags. So far not one has been made by anyone who has been owes money including MSD holdings or whatever.

They are probably saying to Garlick that we need this fodder to stay up because they (our new owners) aren’t loaded.

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

Just my two cents and I’m biased because I’m American but there is no need to panic until the window closes and the only person we’ve brought in is Andy Carroll.

This post will get lost amid the hysteria tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I suspect you are right. Everyone is Uber reactionary. People don’t realize this is just a rehash article stating what we ALREADY KNEW.

Walkerpool wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:17 am

If this is true then the sooner we get the old board back the better.

I can think of nothing worse than having Garlick back - don't forget the super fan that he is agreed to the sale in it's entirety, the structure, the loans - the lot.

He is one guy I would not welcome back at all

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Can I just say- Everyone knew this back when Pace & Co signed and bought the club. It’s a structured takeover. Nothing has changed since when they took over besides they are waiting for TV money.We knew then that they didn’t have all the money. First of all, this proves that Pace & Co aren’t pocketing player sale money. (I.E. Wood). Second, they knew ahead of time that they had to be active in the market in January. Now, after Woods sale more than ever. We knew they needed TV money to fund the deal. Stay up or go down they have a contingency. They initially sought out championship clubs to work with because the finance wasn’t great. Garlick has an emergency pull cord at any point. “All parties were aligned and in agreement.” So in reality, nothings changed. They haven’t missed their payment so, not to be worried yet.

Also- if I was say, a Saudi backed team with infinite money, and I knew my opponent has a decent chance of staying up over than me but has a glaring spot that doesn’t look good I’d exploit that. Id encourage tabloids to pop up etc. this casting doubt to any prospective signings. I’d also buy their lead goal scorer even if I don’t necessarily want him because I know it will make it difficult.

I swear, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m proven wrong if it be the case but I believe we are on the cusp of player purchases and, nothing changes until the folks owed money raise red flags. So far not one has been made by anyone who has been owes money including MSD holdings or whatever.

They are probably saying to Garlick that we need this fodder to stay up because they (our new owners) aren’t loaded.

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

Just my two cents and I’m biased because I’m American but there is no need to panic until the window closes and the only person we’ve brought in is Andy Carroll.

You have done an admirable job here of sugar coating our situation. I would personally say there is plenty for us supporters to be concerned about. Additionally your last paragraph could sadly sum up our activity during the window, a solitary Andy Carroll.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:59 am

I can think of nothing worse than having Garlick back - don't forget the super fan that he is agreed to the sale in it's entirety, the structure, the loans - the lot.

He is one guy I would not welcome back at all

The good news for you would be that Garlick, likely, wouldn't want the club back

A club saddled with debt and having to try and work again with Dyche would, I guess, not be on his bucket list

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Can I just say- Everyone knew this back when Pace & Co signed and bought the club. It’s a structured takeover. Nothing has changed since when they took over besides they are waiting for TV money.We knew then that they didn’t have all the money. First of all, this proves that Pace & Co aren’t pocketing player sale money. (I.E. Wood). Second, they knew ahead of time that they had to be active in the market in January. Now, after Woods sale more than ever. We knew they needed TV money to fund the deal. Stay up or go down they have a contingency. They initially sought out championship clubs to work with because the finance wasn’t great. Garlick has an emergency pull cord at any point. “All parties were aligned and in agreement.” So in reality, nothings changed. They haven’t missed their payment so, not to be worried yet.

Also- if I was say, a Saudi backed team with infinite money, and I knew my opponent has a decent chance of staying up over than me but has a glaring spot that doesn’t look good I’d exploit that. Id encourage tabloids to pop up etc. this casting doubt to any prospective signings. I’d also buy their lead goal scorer even if I don’t necessarily want him because I know it will make it difficult.

I swear, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m proven wrong if it be the case but I believe we are on the cusp of player purchases and, nothing changes until the folks owed money raise red flags. So far not one has been made by anyone who has been owes money including MSD holdings or whatever.

They are probably saying to Garlick that we need this fodder to stay up because they (our new owners) aren’t loaded.

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

Just my two cents and I’m biased because I’m American but there is no need to panic until the window closes and the only person we’ve brought in is Andy Carroll.

He wouldn’t be the first person to hide behind religion whilst making a quick buck, it proves nothing regarding wood the money is probably being used to bolster the cashflow which in turn funds his his own acquisition & benefits him, if the money in its entirety is reinvested which we will see in due course then that picture changes, bringing religion into it osama bin laden was a devout Moslem & in the Quran you aren’t meant to murder people it never stopped him organising twin towers, I'm no way suggesting that AP is crooked or on the take underhandedly.

Another source pointed out that the revised schedule will take the payments into the next financial year, potentially enabling the owners to defer millions in tax.

I would have thought this was actually the main reason for deferring the payments until the next financial year.

Likely to all be true based on noises from previous shareholders, weird aberrations such as compulsory strike offs on Companies House, the very nature of how the deal was structured originally, the conveyer belt of trusted employees being removed one by one and the almost total silence from the ownership on any of these topics.

This is precisely why I have said I would personally only be getting in ‘loan to buy if stay up’ players as (regardless of Pace words on us ‘having a plan’ for the drop) or it will be a totally new world for us once relegated.

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Also - Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

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I think that the “sources” referred to are this board. All that’s in the article was already known and has been discussed on here.

jedi_master wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:12 am

Likely to all be true based on noises from previous shareholders, weird aberrations such as compulsory strike offs on Companies House.

Wasn't that was pointed out elsewhere that that's nothing other than late filing of documents which isn't considered unusual?

Spijed wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:34 am

Wasn't that was pointed out elsewhere that that's nothing other than late filing of documents which isn't considered unusual?

Perhaps so Spijed, I’m not sure personally but I will happily defer to those more knowledgeable on Companies House postings.

I feel the red flags are far too numerous now. The largest which cannot ever be ignored is how they acquired our club. Nothing since then bar baseless platitudes of “Having a plan for relegation” has assuaged my own opinion which is based upon rumblings, press speculation, my own hour or so with Alan Pace and the lack of any substantive explanation for a way out for us once our revenue drops post-relegation (IF we go down, of course).

We get told many times on this messageboard that the daily mail cannot be trusted....

Well we didn’t spend any money before so I’m not sure what difference any of this makes.

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

You do remember he worked for Lehman Brothers don't you?

Get ready for a very bumpy few years...

I really worry for the club, dress it up as you will we are saddled with debt,debt drags you down, debt limits spending,lack of spending equates to inferior players, Dyche can't keep performing miracles as this season shows.
Oh well back to Saturday 3pm kick offs,it's not all bad just depends how low we drop before we reach some sort of equilibrium.

claptrappers_union wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:28 am

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Got to love people using his religion as a defence.

He’s got a betting sponsor as our main sponsor. Actively pushing crypto on the club and has already increased ticket prices during a global pandemic in one of the poorest areas of Britain.

He’s a true saint

JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:03 am

You do remember he worked for Lehman Brothers don't you?

Get ready for a very bumpy few years...

So what? So did the owner of the worlds largest and most successful private equity firm (Blackstone). You do realise he then spent 11 years at Citi, being the Global Head of several different departments. Stupid comment.

No point focusing on Pace or pretending any weird religious beliefs will have any bearing on this. It’s just a leveraged US buyout, as grimly predictable as any other.

Last time we went down we were debt free and had loads of ready cash to keep most of the squad together and bring in a few fresh faces.

This time we’re at least £60m in debt and already struggling to make payments. Everything else is just wishful thinking and PR.

bfcjg wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:13 am

I really worry for the club, dress it up as you will we are saddled with debt,debt drags you down, debt limits spending,lack of spending equates to inferior players, Dyche can't keep performing miracles as this season shows.
Oh well back to Saturday 3pm kick offs,it's not all bad just depends how low we drop before we reach some sort of equilibrium.

Well, at least we can all look forward to another Orient game. It will give the current generations something to bang on about every time we lose a game we shouldn’t so they can remind future generations that they don’t know how lucky they are.

Doesn't particularly worry me yet.

1: The Daily Mail are continually looking for an angle on our new board so most likely exaggerated anyway.

2: It is not uncommon at the moment for companies to defer payments during these covid times until it picks up again and in fact, makes a lot of sense in many cases.

3: The alternative is a board not willing to spend anything and see us stagnate which encourages and results in us playing pragmatic football with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel for any excitement, especially in cup games... I am absolutely sick of watching it or having nothing to look forward to... Groundhog day can do one and I'd rather go for it within reason!... I will also never forgive the fat cat for fattening the goose for his own pocket lining either and want him nowhere near the running of the club!

Have people been hiding under a rock or something? Debt is very common when it comes to running football clubs now and if managed well higher risk investment can reap good rewards.

People are acting like it's unusual but most clubs owe a lot more money then we do and keep in the premier league consistently.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:19 am

So what? So did the owner of the worlds largest and most successful private equity firm (Blackstone). You do realise he then spent 11 years at Citi, being the Global Head of several different departments. Stupid comment.

Well i hope I'm being unduly pessimistic

BigChaCha wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 am

Doesn't particularly worry me yet.

1: The Daily Mail are continually looking for an angle on our new board so most likely exaggerated anyway.

2: It is not uncommon at the moment for companies to defer payments during these covid times until it picks up again and in fact, makes a lot of sense in many cases.

3: The alternative is a board not willing to spend anything and see us stagnate which encourages and results in us playing pragmatic football with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel for any excitement, especially in cup games... I am absolutely sick of watching it or having nothing to look forward to... Groundhog day can do one and I'd rather go for it within reason!... I will also never forgive the fat cat for fattening the goose for his own pocket lining either and want him nowhere near the running of the club!

Agree with your points here. Just to add, I think seeing us stagnate / playing crap football is exactly what the new board don’t want. Their model is to attract new investment into the club, hence why they’ve been trying to modernise the stadium/corporate areas. I’m sure also a target is to get more positive TV coverage, that will likely come from having more exciting players (see the Cornet signing) and playing better football. That way, it makes the club more attractive for external investors - but within all of this the club still needs to be run as a business.

I believe it can be done, look at Brentford who I believe have made a net profit of +20m on transfer fees across their last 50 transfers in/out (or something like that).

Also, while there is always concern for PL club financially when going down due to the 50-60% cut to funding, it worth noting most, if not all of our players will have significant wage cuts probably matching the drops in revenue. That, plus better recruitment including player sales of our PL ready players (Cornet, Pope, McNeil) leaves me relatively relaxed about going down.

superdimitri wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:29 am

Have people been hiding under a rock or something? Debt is very common when it comes to running football clubs now and if managed well higher risk investment can reap good rewards.

People are acting like it's unusual but most clubs owe a lot more money then we do and keep in the premier league consistently.

Correct, debt is commonplace in the majority of businesses across the world, let alone football clubs. In fact, having a mixture of debt and equity in a business is a cheaper way of financing due to the tax shields you get from the interest payments (it’s tax deductible).

When do the exciting times arrive?

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

I was kind of with you until I read the above paragraph.

Anyhow, 'grim' is most certainly the right word to describe our plight. I have a feeling that history is repeating itself, but this time it's going to be on steroids.

arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 am

Well, at least we can all look forward to another Orient game. It will give the current generations something to bang on about every time we lose a game we shouldn’t so they can remind future generations that they don’t know how lucky they are.

I don't think it will ever get so bad fingers crossed. They could take the tv cash,cash in on players then clear off and we have to run the club on our gate receipts so perhaps the championship with hopefully another punt at the big time some day.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:42 am

When do the exciting times arrive?

Once we are established as one of the major players in the northern powerhouse structure, so anytime between today and 2086

The reality is there in the article. I have a close friend who works on the financial section of a national broadsheet...not a claret, but he assures me that our precarious position is common knowledge whilst not deemed particularly newsworthy to his editor.

The rest of this thread is mere whistling in the dark to keep spirits up. Understandable.....theres going to be plenty of that in the coming years.

And the line "" we'll be fine because Pace is a Mormon" could be destined to haunt us for decades.

Nothing that we didn’t already know and makes perfect business sense. All parties are happy with it, there’s no issue.

Put out there too dampen down other clubs transfer demands from us?

DCWat wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:42 am

When do the exciting times arrive?

*Paul Waine enters the chat*

It doesn’t look great. The best case scenario is that we stay up and move to a model of buying promising players and selling at a profit. I’d be very happy with seeing more players like Cornet through the day.

There is a bigger chance of it going tits up though. However I’m not sure how sad I’ll be (assuming we survive - big assumption). I think I’m part of a large minority of fans who love Burnley being at the top table but is getting bored of the pragmatic football and being happy with 17th place. It’s no different to Arsenal being delighted with 4th place year after year - I ripped the **** out of them.

DCWat wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:42 am

When do the exciting times arrive?

You blinked , we beat Brentford

Could it be that pace and garlick agree that money needs spending on the team sooner rather than later ...

A great post from the OP , though the devout Mormon bit ( of which he is) is completely wrong , business is business end of.
The mail article is a re-hash and quotes “ a source “ and “ another source” etc etc though is pretty rounded tbf. That ALK had quite an exotic structure to the deal re:debt is not exactly news , but their lack of “ attracted investment “ ( which was the cornerstone of their plan )and therefore using tv money for repayments is highly highly concerning .

WiscoClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 am

Also- Pace is a very devout Mormon. He’s be shunned by his church if he stripped a club of its assets or faulted his loans and deprived people of wages. The man can’t even have caffeine it’s that strict.

Mormons are some of the most ruthless businessmen in the entirety of America - Salt Lake Games anyone?

Also - I guess that means don’t bring your wives on the turf gents - Pace will be after them

fatboy47 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:48 am

The reality is there in the article. I have a close friend who works on the financial section of a national broadsheet...not a claret, but he assures me that our precarious position is common knowledge whilst not deemed particularly newsworthy to his editor.

Yup, the most desperate straw clutching here is the idea that somehow the Daily Mail have an ideological desire to take down Burnley. The only surprise is they've highlighted our plight at all and consider it newsworthy outside of East Lancashire.

I'm not even too fussed about the reality of it, it's not something we have any control over, that's not how English football works. You can rail against it, have protests and write lengthy emails to your MP.. or you can blindly trust in a US finance company to do the right thing by an obscure sports team 3,000 miles away. Either way, it'll make no difference.

The previous owners deserved to get stiffed for selling the club down the river, the only people this deal was any good for was them and now that doesn't even look as attractive.

Our club our town, we are custodians was spouted by the last lot, it was just BS. Lets be right they didn't and don't give one about BFC or the town

The more interesting aspect is why they picked Burnley, a precarious Premiership side, always likely to be relegated, a smallish fan base with little hope of expansion, an old stadium with limited potential, a lack of youthful potential or saleable assets, a team with a style of play which attracts respect at best. Did they do their research or was it a whim.
Certainly hard to see a bright future, and difficult to imagine there not being huge changes in the next two seasons.

Essentially, what will be will be

I still maintain that I think Pace wants to do the right thing by us, and it all depends on whether his calculations took into account relegation (and to be fair, he says they do)

One thing was always sure whoever took over was that we'd go down at some stage

I think looking at Swansea might be the a forerunner of where we will be in a few years time, and they are cost cutting every season

But has already been mentioned, its either wishful thinking or full on mega doom monger.

We will just have to wait and see*

*but if we don't sign anyone in this window, then it will be very hard not to assume the worst

claretandbluesky wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:33 am

The more interesting aspect is why they picked Burnley, a precarious Premiership side, always likely to be relegated, a smallish fan base with little hope of expansion, an old stadium with limited potential, a lack of youthful potential or saleable assets, a team with a style of play which attracts respect at best. Did they do their research or was it a whim.
Certainly hard to see a bright future, and difficult to imagine there not being huge changes in the next two seasons.

Perhaps the reasons you give for not buying us are precisely the reason they did.

If this has cost ALK £15m (as has been rumoured) to take ownership of the club entirely, with all of it's assets (and then used the cash reserves of £50m plus a loan from Dell of £60m to prop up his 'bid'/'payment' to Garlick et al), it was almost win/win for him. He only ever stands to lose his original stake, which I am assuming was a risk he was willing to take.

He will have thought there was a good chance that having studied the finances involved and our previously solid Premier League record, that he could possibly bleed the TV money from the Premier League along with 1/2 player sales a year, whilst getting into a Brentford-esque player recruitment model to continue to beef up the clubs finances via improving value and selling. He could then use that TV and transfer money (a portion of, anyway) to pay off the clubs debts (that he himself put on us) whilst providing just enough to allow the wheeling/dealing needed to the squad to keep us propped up in the league, with belief Dyche could deliver that (hence a huge effort to get him tied to a new contract as this was a key cornerstone of this scheme). He also (for some reason that only he knows) believed he would attract outside investment to a provincial town team that has punched above it's weight it's entire existence, that has no realistic prospect of ever being more than it currently is and has no real 'marketability' to it.

All of this sounds a very good idea but for one key thing - he has banked on Dyche keeping us up every year to pay those debts off. Now that we are facing the drop (or very likely to), what is the backup scheme to this? Of course, we get parachute payments and can sell Pope, McNeil, Taylor, Cornet and have already sold Wood - perhaps that will get rid of the Dell debt - but what does that then leave us 'left over' to carry out the long term goals our club has? I harped on for years how we needed to spend our 'time in the sun' money on the stadium because that was a lasting legacy for us when the inevitable relegation came (just like the training ground), and we didn't do it. We likely wouldn't have the cash reserves after repaying the Dell debt, the Garlick/John B debt and the shortfall in TV revenue with our parachute payments and player sales money to rebuild our squad which is all out of contract and/or over 30.

Believe it or not, I am in a good mood today, so I am not trying to be an overly emotional negative doom monger this morning, just giving my thoughts and my understanding of the lay of the land as I currently see it.

Well what will be will be is certainly a truism.

It’s whether what will be, is a successful club straddling the top two divisions, a struggling club relying totally on its youth as debt, high inflation and diminishing crowds stifle its ambitions, or no club at all.
The fear is that before this takeover the latter was a very distant possibility now it it is not.
The risk and reward equation is out of kilter.
Optimism has been replaced by Anxiety
Transparency by Opaqueness
A solid footing by quicksilver finance.
Worrying times indeed.

So many differenr rumours and regurgitated stories. I'll reserve judgement until 1st February, only then will we know if there's anything to worry about.