I don’t know, we are going back many years so google will not help. What I do remember was he was working as security at the Burnley shopping centre. It’s going to be over 30 years ago.
Maidan Vale murder
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I think you’ll see that it was someone trying to start an argument with me, as you appear to be doing despite not even being involved in the discussion.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:59 pmDo you never take a day off from trying to start arguments with people?
I’m merely pointing out the fact that the driver hasn’t been charged with murder, which is quite key to this story.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Just a observation rather than targeting you directly or anybody, I see a pattern emerging whenever disagreements occur & you are always about in the middle of things, maybe I’ve got it wrong & my observations are wrong it wouldn’t be the first.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:37 pmI think you’ll see that it was someone trying to start an argument with me, as you appear to be doing despite not even being involved in the discussion.
I’m merely pointing out the fact that the driver hasn’t been charged with murder, which is quite key to this story.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
There’s no argument here. I just pointed out that the driver hasn’t been charged for murder.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:55 pmJust a observation rather than targeting you directly or anybody, I see a pattern emerging whenever disagreements occur & you are always about in the middle of things, maybe I’ve got it wrong & my observations are wrong it wouldn’t be the first.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Can I ask have you ever been arrested and bailed on further investigations.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:37 pmI think you’ll see that it was someone trying to start an argument with me, as you appear to be doing despite not even being involved in the discussion.
I’m merely pointing out the fact that the driver hasn’t been charged with murder, which is quite key to this story.
The impact it has on you and your family can immense.
It’s not like a parking ticket FFS.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
He hasn’t been charged for murder, simple as that.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:43 pmMaybe I’ve got it wrong but being held for murder might suggest detention pending a charge. Did anybody actually say a charge?
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
No I haven’t, and I wouldn’t expect it to be like a parking ticket. I don’t see the relevance of your point.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:49 pmCan I ask have you ever been arrested and bailed on further investigations.
The impact it has on you and your family can immense.
It’s not like a parking ticket FFS.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Read the opening post.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Just read the thread. It’s all there is simple chronological order.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:57 pmHow does staying up fit into that, the post you quoted?
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I know mate. Not sure why people are still droning on, disgruntled posters playing the man rather than the ball probably.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Good evening.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:02 pmWhat somebody initially says changes from what somebody else says, from the opening post numerous posters have commented on the subject & added opinions.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
It’s absolutely devastating the stain on your character & in today’s society people are very quick to judge without establishing the full facts.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:49 pmCan I ask have you ever been arrested and bailed on further investigations.
The impact it has on you and your family can immense.
It’s not like a parking ticket FFS.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
lol Jakub
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Yes, stayingup did. At least twice.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
What is the change in law that is being processed?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:28 pmSuccessive governments have failed to get a handle on it that's all, it needs a change in laws which I believe is being processed, including the banning of certain knives
Banning certain knives means sod all really. It matters not a jot if they’re carrying Crocodile Dundee’s knife of their Mum’s favourite kitchen knife, it’s already illegal to carry a knife in public.
I’m not convinced that a change in law will provide much of a deterrent to those willing to carry a knife, let alone use one.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Obviously because you have never been arrested and released on bail, the effect it has on you and your family. This guy is facing 10 years in prison for murder. Not sure lots of people thinking it’s not going to happen is making him sleep better.
Having been a juror, the judge will instruct you on the law. If the new laws don’t help him, the jury have to be brave enough to go against the laws of the land to find him not guilty.
As much As I think he did the right thing, it might not help him in court.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
Well if a jury can find the Colson statue topplers not guilty of criminal damage, I am hopeful that any jury would come to the same decision with this decent citizen who did his best to prevent the poor woman from being murdered.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:04 pmObviously because you have never been arrested and released on bail, the effect it has on you and your family. This guy is facing 10 years in prison for murder. Not sure lots of people thinking it’s not going to happen is making him sleep better.
Having been a juror, the judge will instruct you on the law. If the new laws don’t help him, the jury have to be brave enough to go against the laws of the land to find him not guilty.
As much As I think he did the right thing, it might not help him in court.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I agree, but having been in a deliberation room , anything is possible.
At the end of the day, did the prosecution have enough evidence in that case to prove guilt.
This gent did the right thing but was he in danger, was it self defence, no.
The guys family are likely to push for the right to life no matter what they have done. That’s a UK thing, we don’t do the death penalty.
This guy should praised, like the guys who got involved in the London killings, I just worry our woke society will kick in AMD he will have a fight on his hands.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
The guy was making a citizens arrest to prevent further injury to the deceased. He just used his motor vehicle to do it.
It would be interesting if this woman had survived because of his actions. The guy would be seen as a hero who saved her life, however he probably would still have been arrested for the death of the violent perpetrator.
I just hope common sense and decency prevails here. If it doesn’t I will be joining the thousands of decent citizens who would certainly demonstrate outside Parliament on behalf of this public spirited have a go hero.
It would be interesting if this woman had survived because of his actions. The guy would be seen as a hero who saved her life, however he probably would still have been arrested for the death of the violent perpetrator.
I just hope common sense and decency prevails here. If it doesn’t I will be joining the thousands of decent citizens who would certainly demonstrate outside Parliament on behalf of this public spirited have a go hero.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
All that is fine. But it doesn’t change the fact that he hasn’t been charged for murder, which is the point I thought I was quite clearly making.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:04 pmObviously because you have never been arrested and released on bail, the effect it has on you and your family. This guy is facing 10 years in prison for murder. Not sure lots of people thinking it’s not going to happen is making him sleep better.
Having been a juror, the judge will instruct you on the law. If the new laws don’t help him, the jury have to be brave enough to go against the laws of the land to find him not guilty.
As much As I think he did the right thing, it might not help him in court.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Also does not alter the fact he is still facing a possible 10 year jail sentence. The public calling for a medal does not mean the CPS will not charge him. Hope they don’t but fear they will.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
You misunderstand.
The 4 pieces of legislation I alluded to give the police/public the power to use force on any person. They are not pieces of legislation to charge someone.
If you were to use force to defend yourself, say on a night out with a drunken idiot throwing punches, this would be under common law.
If you were to use force to intervene in a crime, such as helping to detain a shoplifter at a local supermarket, you would be using force under Section 3 Criminal Law Act.
The driver in this instance has used force in the shape of a motor vehicle to try and prevent a crime taking place, and to apprehend the suspect.
The argument is whether that use of force was reasonable in the circumstances. I would personally deem it so. If I was in a similar situation, on patrol, then one of my tactical options would be to ram the suspect with my police car (if I can justify it). Don’t forget, even as a police officer i would be using the same powers as a member of the public- Section 3 Criminal Law Act.
If the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged. That is a decision for CPS to come to.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I would suggest a read of this for those who are interested in the nuances of the defence of 'defence of another' or the 'prevention of crime'.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/s ... tion-crime
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/s ... tion-crime
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
If the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged.TsarBomba wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:06 pmYou misunderstand.
The 4 pieces of legislation I alluded to give the police/public the power to use force on any person. They are not pieces of legislation to charge someone.
If you were to use force to defend yourself, say on a night out with a drunken idiot throwing punches, this would be under common law.
If you were to use force to intervene in a crime, such as helping to detain a shoplifter at a local supermarket, you would be using force under Section 3 Criminal Law Act.
The driver in this instance has used force in the shape of a motor vehicle to try and prevent a crime taking place, and to apprehend the suspect.
The argument is whether that use of force was reasonable in the circumstances. I would personally deem it so. If I was in a similar situation, on patrol, then one of my tactical options would be to ram the suspect with my police car (if I can justify it). Don’t forget, even as a police officer i would be using the same powers as a member of the public- Section 3 Criminal Law Act.
If the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged. That is a decision for CPS to come to.
That is NOT a decision for the CPS to come to. That is incorrect. Self defence is a DEFENCE and therefore that is a decision for a court to make. The CPS look at the evidential test ie is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and if that is met they move on to the public interest test where the the prosecutor must ask themselves whether the public interest would be better served by the prosecution taking place, compared to if it did not take place.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
And Police officers are empowered by Section 117 Police and Criminal Evidence Act to use reasonable force, if necessary, when exercising powers not Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967
Re: Maidan Vale murder
But who chooses which law to charge the accused. It's the CPS isn't it (or the CPS in conjunction with the police perhaps), presumably based on the first part of their criteria for charging someone - is there sufficient evidence for a conviction?pushpinpussy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:58 amIf the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged.
That is NOT a decision for the CPS to come to. That is incorrect. Self defence is a DEFENCE and therefore that is a decision for a court to make. The CPS look at the evidential test ie is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and if that is met they move on to the public interest test where the the prosecutor must ask themselves whether the public interest would be better served by the prosecution taking place, compared to if it did not take place.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
But he wasn’t using common law in this instance to defend himself. The driver was using force under Section 3 CLA.pushpinpussy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:58 amIf the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged.
That is NOT a decision for the CPS to come to. That is incorrect. Self defence is a DEFENCE and therefore that is a decision for a court to make. The CPS look at the evidential test ie is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and if that is met they move on to the public interest test where the the prosecutor must ask themselves whether the public interest would be better served by the prosecution taking place, compared to if it did not take place.
And if the CPS deem there isn’t a realistic prospect of conviction, then he won’t be charged.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I would humbly suggest he was not defending himself, he could as others did just drive straight on and away from the scene.
He used his car as reasonable force, after locking himself in it.
As he says in his statement he is now going through hell, poor man.
Feel sorry for him and the poor lady victim.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60218733
No charges. Must be a great relief and very happy that a sensible decision has been reached here.
No charges. Must be a great relief and very happy that a sensible decision has been reached here.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Never in doubt.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Exactly..Just a shame he couldn't have arrived a minute earlier to save the ladies life.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
Section 3 Criminal Law Act can be used by Police and members of the public.pushpinpussy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:06 amAnd Police officers are empowered by Section 117 Police and Criminal Evidence Act to use reasonable force, if necessary, when exercising powers not Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967
Re: Maidan Vale murder
You were saying?pushpinpussy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:58 amIf the use of force is ultimately deemed reasonable, he won’t be charged.
That is NOT a decision for the CPS to come to. That is incorrect. Self defence is a DEFENCE and therefore that is a decision for a court to make. The CPS look at the evidential test ie is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and if that is met they move on to the public interest test where the the prosecutor must ask themselves whether the public interest would be better served by the prosecution taking place, compared to if it did not take place.
CPS have come to the decision that the driver be released with no further action. Use of force clearly deemed reasonable in the circumstances.
I sincerely hope, pushpinpussy, you don’t represent people in matters of criminal law.
Thankfully, the poor driver hasn’t had to be waiting too long for this decision to be made.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
Correct decision made, thankfully quickly.
Re: Maidan Vale murder
In these circumstances the typical member of the public doesn't go into action thinking about any law. He just does what he can based on his fears, conscience etc.. It is in the aftermath of the deed that he has to face the consequences and those consequences are decided by authorities and perhaps individuals (victims) too. Most of us probably wouldn't think about this at the time as this driver probably didn't. If we did we would perhaps 'cross the road' to avoid the situation.
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Re: Maidan Vale murder
I already admitted I would likely have driven away, however, this case being resolved and now having that knowledge. If faced tomorrow with this situation, I would run someone over with my Land Rover to try to save another.Hipper wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:20 pmIn these circumstances the typical member of the public doesn't go into action thinking about any law. He just does what he can based on his fears, conscience etc.. It is in the aftermath of the deed that he has to face the consequences and those consequences are decided by authorities and perhaps individuals (victims) too. Most of us probably wouldn't think about this at the time as this driver probably didn't. If we did we would perhaps 'cross the road' to avoid the situation.
I did think he might be charged, but glad he wasn’t.