Barrowford Primary School....

[Lancasterclaret]

I quite agree with the first half of what you say in that governments should offer better education but all schools are never going to be equally as good or as bad as each other. There will always be better or worse schools out there.

No government should be able to stop me from spending my (fictional) money the way I want. If a millionaire wants to set up a *better* school (and it adheres to requirements like the National Curriculum) then they should be able to spend that money and open that school. After all, it will only survive if parents want to send their children to it.

And that entrenches elitism, and guarantees that not everyone has the best start in life that they can get

My kids could easily have got into the local grammar school (I went to it) but the local comprehensive has just as good grades (or very close to it)

Why can't every school be like that?

[Boss Hogg]

Looking at her perhaps she ought to have focussed her efforts on healthy eating including a balanced all inclusive diet. Presumably a white cheese sandwich lots of crisps and chocolate would be ok but a ham sandwich some grapes and a banana wouldn’t. I’m glad my kids don’t go there.

[Rowls]

And that entrenches elitism, and guarantees that not everyone has the best start in life that they can get

My kids could easily have got into the local grammar school (I went to it) but the local comprehensive has just as good grades (or very close to it)

Why can't every school be like that?

Why can't every school be good? I think every school should be outstanding. It's perfectly achievable - if they all successfully adopted the Michaela approach they'd all see similar results. But there will never be a situation where every school is equally good. That's just how the universe works.

If you had a choice for your children then you've benefitted from being able to make that choice. Why should families in different areas only get a choice of two bad comprehensive schools? - That is sadly the choice for many parents.

Have you ever considered that the mere presence of the Grammar school kept the comprehensive competitive?

We've tried the system whereby opening state schools was forbidden and it made outcomes for working class children worse.

We've only just begun to see how the new Free Schools are performing but the evidence is that the majority of them are better than their comprehensive equivalents and they are improving educational outcomes for working class children.

So for me, the choice is clear: Parent's should have the kind of choice you had.

[Lancasterclaret]

Why can't every school be good? I think every school should be outstanding. It's perfectly achievable - if they all successfully adopted the Michaela approach they'd all see similar results. But there will never be a situation where every school is equally good. That's just how the universe works.

If you had a choice for your children then you've benefitted from being able to make that choice. Why should families in different areas only get a choice of two bad comprehensive schools? - That is sadly the choice for many parents.

Have you ever considered that the mere presence of the Grammar school kept the comprehensive competitive?

We've tried the system whereby opening state schools was forbidden and it made outcomes for working class children worse.

We've only just begun to see how the new Free Schools are performing but the evidence is that the majority of them are better than their comprehensive equivalents and they are improving educational outcomes for working class children.

So for me, the choice is clear: Parent's should have the kind of choice you had.

Interesting argument

My argument is that every school should be good, and shock! horror!, the best funded schools tend to be good schools!

So all schools should be properly funded, not just a select few, and not just open to a select few as well

[Devils_Advocate]

And that entrenches elitism, and guarantees that not everyone has the best start in life that they can get

My kids could easily have got into the local grammar school (I went to it) but the local comprehensive has just as good grades (or very close to it)

Why can't every school be like that?

And whilst the people making the funding decisions on education have the money to ensure they kids can go to the best private schools they are incentivised not to prioritise education spending over some other things that might be less important nationally but more important to their audience.

I would bet if all the Tory and Labour MPs had to send their kids to a local state school they would soon up the spending and make sure the standard of education right across the board was improved. As it is why should they care as a poor standard of school doesnt help them and actually gives their own kids an even bigger head start

[Lancasterclaret]

And whilst the people making the funding decisions on education have the money to ensure they kids can go to the best private schools they are incentivised not to prioritise education spending over some other things that might be less important nationally but more important to their audience.

I would bet if all the Tory and Labour MPs had to send their kids to a local state school they would soon up the spending and make sure the standard of education right across the board was improved. As it is why should they care as a poor standard of school doesnt help them and actually gives their own kids an even bigger head start

But some local state schools are great

And some are not

Some of the free schools that Rowls likes are great as well, but some of them are not

Honestly don't really care about who runs schools as long as they are run well and everyone has access to the same (or at least similar) standards of education

Up here, the schools in Morecambe and Heysham are absolutely shocking, while the schools in Lancaster are good, and the schools in the smaller towns around Lancaster (with one exception) are excellent.

I would imagine that is the same for every urban/rural area group with extensive poverty in the towns and huge disparities of wealth in the rural areas

Unless it can be sorted, then there are generations of kids (through no fault of their own) are never going to have a chance

[Taffy on the wing]

Agreed we have cut meat consumption, but it’s not helping the environment one bit, that’s the point. It’s being destroyed to grow products for vegetarians namely Palm oil.

Please research it and understand what’s happening in the world.

I don’t really care what people eat, it’s their choice, but to claim it’s saving the environment is delusional.

Vast swaths of the Amazon are cleared every year for cattle grazing.......more cattle = more Methane (a greenhouse gas 100 times worse than Co2)
The Palm oil has just replaced vegetable shortening in your biscuits, soaps etc.
I agree that Palm oil is a big problem but so is Meat production.

[Rowls]

Interesting argument

My argument is that every school should be good, and shock! horror!, the best funded schools tend to be good schools!

So all schools should be properly funded, not just a select few, and not just open to a select few as well

On this issue Lancaster we'll have to disagree. The private schools are better funded because the parents are willing to pay for their children's education. They're willing to pay because the schools are willing to implement proven teaching methods that state schools have been neglecting.

The Michaela school has blown away the idea that increased funding is behind the poor performance of state schools.

The Michaela school is a non-selective state school. It receives standard school funding. No more than any other state school.

As the Guardian states, "Michaela’s results rank among the best in the country".

Read that again. Not "best in the country compared to schools in equivalent areas"; just "among the best in the country."

This needs putting into context: It is one of the best state schools in the country even though it is in one of the most deprived areas of the country. It is slap bang in the middle of Wembley - an area riven by gangs, knife crime, family breakdown, unemployment, drugs and violence. Many of its children won't even have English as their mother tongue. And it is among the best schools in the country.

This is like Accrington Stanley being in the Champions Leagues qualification places.

It isn't because they receive more funding. It is because of the policies they have instigated.

[Lancasterclaret]

Everyone should have a decent chance in life Rowls, not just the privileged few

And yes, we will have to agree to disagree

[Rowls]

Everyone should have a decent chance in life Rowls, not just the privileged few

We can agree whole-heartedly on this matter Lancs

As said, the kids who've benefited from the Michaela school are actually among the "most deprived", certainly not the kind of demographic people would call "the privileged few".

It'd be dull if we agreed all the time but anyway, good to chat and discuss. UTC

[Devils_Advocate]

But some local state schools are great

And some are not

Some of the free schools that Rowls likes are great as well, but some of them are not

Honestly don't really care about who runs schools as long as they are run well and everyone has access to the same (or at least similar) standards of education

Up here, the schools in Morecambe and Heysham are absolutely shocking, while the schools in Lancaster are good, and the schools in the smaller towns around Lancaster (with one exception) are excellent.

I would imagine that is the same for every urban/rural area group with extensive poverty in the towns and huge disparities of wealth in the rural areas

Unless it can be sorted, then there are generations of kids (through no fault of their own) are never going to have a chance

I agree but I believe that to achieve a high standard of education across the board it needs support in strategy, resource and funding from both national and local government.

My view is that this would get a lot higher priority if the people who make these decisions on strategy, resource and funding were impacted by what I see as years of underfunding. They never will be impacted in that way as if they live in an area where the local school is below standards they will just pay for their child to go to private school.

Im not suggesting that this shouldn't be allowed but making the point that whilst those in power are not directly impacted by decisions they make then they wont treat the issue with the focus and commitment it requires

[Rowls]

I agree but I believe that to achieve a high standard of education across the board it needs support in strategy, resource and funding from both national and local government.

Free Schools are achieving success without input from national or local government.

My view is that this would get a lot higher priority if the people who make these decisions on strategy, resource and funding were impacted by what I see as years of underfunding.

Free Schools are achieving success without any additional funding.

[Roger1960]

The problem is the head is taking a far too absolute meat bad plants good position. For instance I presume she would think it great if the kids came in with a bag of almonds but the growing of them takes huge amounts of water which in California is causing real problems. Mono plant cultivation say for palm oil or other crops can degrade soil , cause soil erosion and deplete its carbon capture ability. Careful animal husbandry can be environmentally beneficial. You can get more milk feeding some nuts to cattle than crushing them for milk directly

[Lancasterclaret]

Free Schools are achieving success without input from national or local government.



Free Schools are achieving success without any additional funding.

Would like to see the evidence for this to be perfectly honest

Your school you quote sounds fantastic, but the school my kids go to is also fantastic, and a state school (academy)

But the two schools in Morecambe that are v poor are also academies

I think it might be a bit more nuanced than "free schools are better"

[Rowls]

Free Schools are not acadamies.

Not all Free Schools will be good. They won't be good by virtue of being Free Schools. Some might be awful.

They provide a choice and -because they are free from local authority interference- they are free to implement proven, traditional teaching techniques.

It is the implementation of these teaching techniques that I am arguing for.

How many parents can honestly say they know the difference between "child centred discovery learning" (or similar) and traditiona teacher-led instructional classes?

Do parents understand how much more effective and proven one of these techniques is over the other?

Are parents aware that of the teaching techniques their school choices are using?

If the only local authority schools within a parent's catchment area are both offering the same kind of teaching technique but the parent would like to send their child to a school that used more effective techniques, in what way do they have a "choice"?

[Lancasterclaret]

Free Schools are not acadamies.

Not all Free Schools will be good. They won't be good by virtue of being Free Schools. Some might be awful.

They provide a choice and -because they are free from local authority interference- they are free to implement proven, traditional teaching techniques.

It is the implementation of these teaching techniques that I am arguing for.

How many parents can honestly say they know the difference between "child centred discovery learning" (or similar) and traditiona teacher-led instructional classes?

Do parents understand how much more effective and proven one of these techniques is over the other?

Are parents aware that of the teaching techniques their school choices are using?

If the only local authority schools within a parent's catchment area are both offering the same kind of teaching technique but the parent would like to send their child to a school that used more effective techniques, in what way do they have a "choice"?

Without evidence that these things are better, this sounds awfully like "Brexit will be better, trust us"

[Lowbankclaret]

Would like to see the evidence for this to be perfectly honest

Your school you quote sounds fantastic, but the school my kids go to is also fantastic, and a state school (academy)

But the two schools in Morecambe that are v poor are also academies

I think it might be a bit more nuanced than "free schools are better"

I will have mentioned this before, my mother was head teacher of a school in Middleton, Manchester. A very poor area.
When she took over it was achieving 6% 5 A to C’s. Think it was in the bottom 50 schools in the country.

The year she retired (don’t remember the exact figure) it was over 50% 5 A to C’s.

I would argue it’s down to leadership and not money or where you live.

[Lancasterclaret]

I will have mentioned this before, my mother was head teacher of a school in Middleton, Manchester. A very poor area.
When she took over it was achieving 6% 5 A to C’s. Think it was in the bottom 50 schools in the country.

The year she retired (don’t remember the exact figure) it was over 50% 5 A to C’s.

I would argue it’s down to leadership and not money or where you live.

Oh, effective leadership from the head is absolutely crucial no doubt

But there are a lot of factors at play as well

I think the demographic about which sections of society are failing has changed over time as well (going of memory here so might not be accurate)

[Rowls]

Without evidence that these things are better, this sounds awfully like "Brexit will be better, trust us"

The evidence that traditional teaching techniques are better than "child-centred learning" is manifold.

The success of the Michaela school is exceptional not simply because they've implemented them - they've also implemented a fantastic culture within the whole school and instilled high expectations of and in the children.

This is concrete. You've only got to look at their exam results to see it.

[Lowbankclaret]

Oh, effective leadership from the head is absolutely crucial no doubt

But there are a lot of factors at play as well

I think the demographic about which sections of society are failing has changed over time as well (going of memory here so might not be accurate)

Once she retired, she was a consultant for St Helens council. She was asked to mentor the 6 head teachers of its worst performing schools.
She had all six heads sacked, employing new Heads who took on advice and changes, all the schools improved.

Some head teachers are just not up to the job.

At 78 she is still a chair of governors of a Manchester 16-18 college, never stopped working. Crazy women.

[Lancasterclaret]

The evidence that traditional teaching techniques are better than "child-centred learning" is manifold.

The success of the Michaela school is exceptional not simply because they've implemented them - they've also implemented a fantastic culture within the whole school and instilled high expectations of and in the children.

This is concrete. You've only got to look at their exam results to see it.

One school Rowls

Its like me claiming my kids school is great means all state schools are great

[!aiboforceN]

... does not fit with the woke agenda.

I've always found it surprising that "woke" (a slang term broadly meaning "awake to social injustices") is ever used as an insult.

If "woke" has an agenda... that agenda is simply to improve the situation for victims of intolerance, campaigning for broader understanding of minorities or victims of discrimination, in all its forms.

I've heard people argue that this infringes their "rights", but we don't have any legal "rights" to discriminate against minorities.

Whether "the woke agenda" covers not feeding meat to pupils at Barrowford Primary School is highly doubtful, in my opinion. To me, that seems more like a decision taken - probably with very good intentions - that not everyone agrees with.

[Lowbankclaret]

I've always found it surprising that "woke" (a slang term broadly meaning "awake to social injustices") is ever used as an insult.

If "woke" has an agenda... that agenda is simply to improve the situation for victims of intolerance, campaigning for broader understanding of minorities or victims of discrimination, in all its forms.

I've heard people argue that this infringes their "rights", but we don't have any legal "rights" to discriminate against minorities.

Whether "the woke agenda" covers not feeding meat to pupils at Barrowford Primary School is highly doubtful, in my opinion. To me, that seems more like a decision taken - probably with very good intentions - that not everyone agrees with.

In the UK we have always had a freedom of choice, this goes completely against our freedom of choice.

People have the right to be vegan or vegetarian. That’s their choice and I fully respect that, but to force it on anyone I do find that offensive.

People using cows and methane as an environment argument are simplifying the subject to fit the agenda.

Cattle reared around Burnley on grass where veg cannot be grown , don’t add to environmental damage.

The real problem is intensive farms where crops are grown to feed cattle in sheds, mainly in America I believe. That’s not efficient use of the land and is damaging to the environment. Apparently these cattle emit far more methane.

Most of the sheep raised around here live of land that is useless for anything else.

Intensive farming in the UK is damaging the soil. Insect life has collapsed. Bees are disappearing. All the pressure of growing vegetables and plants for oils. It’s doing way more damage than the cows and sheep around here.

[Rowls]

One school Rowls

Its like me claiming my kids school is great means all state schools are great

No, the evidence that teacher-led teaching is superior to "child-centred learning" is overwhelming.

The success of that one school is in part at least because they've taken the evidence on board and put it into practice.

[Rowls]

That one school is now just another piece of evidence showing what does work and what does not.

[Lancasterclaret]

Come on Rowls, if they were all as good as the one you mention, then the government would be trumpeting it to all and sundry (and not in a trumpet at a party way)

[Lowbankclaret]

I've always found it surprising that "woke" (a slang term broadly meaning "awake to social injustices") is ever used as an insult.

If "woke" has an agenda... that agenda is simply to improve the situation for victims of intolerance, campaigning for broader understanding of minorities or victims of discrimination, in all its forms.

I've heard people argue that this infringes their "rights", but we don't have any legal "rights" to discriminate against minorities.

Whether "the woke agenda" covers not feeding meat to pupils at Barrowford Primary School is highly doubtful, in my opinion. To me, that seems more like a decision taken - probably with very good intentions - that not everyone agrees with.

https://www.tabledebates.org/sites/defa ... estock.pdf

[Lowbankclaret]

Intensive farming of vegetables is doing just as much damage, you just don’t want to admit it.

https://www.tabledebates.org/research-l ... ne-insects

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agricu ... ew-report/

Plus hundreds more reports you can find.

[expoultryboy]

When i went to Walter Street , mrs mackie used to make us eat semolina and tapioca . Now I'm sure they were worse for you than meat ! Disgusting

[Steve1956]

When i went to Walter Street , mrs mackie used to make us eat semolina and tapioca . Now I'm sure they were worse for you than meat ! Disgusting

Was that the shite they put a big blob of jam in.....we used to stir it all together to make a rather fetching pink dish....not.

[Steve1956]

School dinners eh? My Mum give me five shilling on a Monday morning to pay for the weeks school dinners...chippy and fags on a Monday then starved for the rest of the week

[timel0veandtendayi]

Intensive farming of vegetables is doing just as much damage, you just don’t want to admit it.

https://www.tabledebates.org/research-l ... ne-insects

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agricu ... ew-report/

Plus hundreds more reports you can find.

Soya crops are destroying rainforests etc. but 90+% goes to animal agriculture, so it's the meat industry destroying rainforests. Not sure what you're arguing really. There's literally no benefit in eating meat, for you, the environment or animals.

[Lowbankclaret]

Soya crops are destroying rainforests etc. but 90+% goes to animal agriculture, so it's the meat industry destroying rainforests. Not sure what you're arguing really. There's literally no benefit in eating meat, for you, the environment or animals.

Your being blindsided by the whole agenda.

Link some proof to your claim.

Think you will find if you do more research, Palm oil is bigger, as it’s now n everything you eat. Check the labels chocolate, wraps, bread, sweets, pies, cakes, ready meals,

[Lowbankclaret]

Soya crops are destroying rainforests etc. but 90+% goes to animal agriculture, so it's the meat industry destroying rainforests. Not sure what you're arguing really. There's literally no benefit in eating meat, for you, the environment or animals.

Found this from green peace, again it’s using soya to produce meat as you say. I agree I am against that.

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/challenges/soya/

[FeedTheArf]

I had a general reply to this thread with some context but perhaps better to comment on yours.

We were fortunate to have a choice of the 2 schools in Barrowford and Blacko - we picked this one for my daughter.

I guess it depends on individual experience, I’ve seen the noisy few making comments on social media. For my daughter; the head teacher and the whole school were fantastic.
My daughter left 4 years ago, whenever I go to her high school award nights the majority of high achievers are from Barrowford School.

As I said we visited all 3 schools- I couldn’t be happier with the choice we made.

Very much down to individual experience. We just wanted something more traditional. But as I say, beyond the ‘headlines’, the head had well reasoned arguments for their policies and genuinely seemed to care.

[Lowbankclaret]

So I will repeat again, if your going to eat meat support local producers, where they have eaten local grass that could not produce veg.

Longcausewaytrading are a local Burnley smallholding that does beef and lamb and pork.

Herbfedpoultry, free range chicken straight from the farm. Now it’s not going to the £3 insipid intensive farmed Chuck. It’s going to cost £12, but that’s the real cost of proper welfare reared chicken, which has some taste.

In the same vain, you need to buy organic veg, or doing just same amount of damage to the environment. But you can hid behind the badge of vegan or vegetarian. When your not actually helping.

[Lowbankclaret]

Very much down to individual experience. We just wanted something more traditional. But as I say, beyond the ‘headlines’, the head had well reasoned arguments for their policies and genuinely seemed to care.

Is the school providing the supplements required by kids on vegan or vegetarian diets, guess not.

[expoultryboy]

Steve : i did exactly the same , 5 number 10's or number 6' s haha

[Lancasterclaret]

So I will repeat again, if your going to eat meat support local producers, where they have eaten local grass that could not produce veg.

Longcausewaytrading are a local Burnley smallholding that does beef and lamb and pork.

Herbfedpoultry, free range chicken straight from the farm. Now it’s not going to the £3 insipid intensive farmed Chuck. It’s going to cost £12, but that’s the real cost of proper welfare reared chicken, which has some taste.

In the same vain, you need to buy organic veg, or doing just same amount of damage to the environment. But you can hid behind the badge of vegan or vegetarian. When your not actually helping.

If its four times as much Lowbank, then people are not going to be able to afford that. We couldn't for starters, and we are nowhere near the worst off in the Uk

[Dy1geo]

Just caught this thread and all I can say looking at the head if a vegetarian diet leads you to putting on that much weight, I will stick to meat in mine.

[Volvoclaret]

Apparently Ukrainian have offered her new job as a tank stopper.

[Damo]

Without evidence that these things are better, this sounds awfully like "Brexit will be better, trust us"

The Internet needs to mandate a godwins type law for Brexit

[Damo]

I've always found it surprising that "woke" (a slang term broadly meaning "awake to social injustices") is ever used as an insult.

If "woke" has an agenda... that agenda is simply to improve the situation for victims of intolerance, campaigning for broader understanding of minorities or victims of discrimination, in all its forms.

I've heard people argue that this infringes their "rights", but we don't have any legal "rights" to discriminate against minorities.

Whether "the woke agenda" covers not feeding meat to pupils at Barrowford Primary School is highly doubtful, in my opinion. To me, that seems more like a decision taken - probably with very good intentions - that not everyone agrees with.

Have you ever met anyone that describes themselves as "woke"?
Theres still some satire around on the Internet that may make you understand why it upsets the people it's generally aimed at.
Google "Godfrey Elfwick"

[nil_desperandum]

I'm new to this thread, but surely any decisions made by the Head are FULLY supported by the Governors?
So surely the blame or praise is on their shoulders?

[Lowbankclaret]

There was some discussion yesterday about deforestation. There is a very interesting utube podcast by a guy who lives in Tasmania. He does bush walking and gold prospecting videos. The deforestation rant starts at 7:30 minutes, but it’s an interesting watch to see him find about £5,000 of gold in 3 days. It’s not really about food but illustrates the wanton destruction going on.

https://youtu.be/DOTlHG5F9NQ

[Dixie Normous]

Schools , who needs them? I went to **** schools, Ivybank anyone ? Learnt nothing of any use other than that I was low life . Now very happy in my life with plenty education.
Kids, just get out as soon as you can.

[evensteadiereddie]

[boyyanno]

Surely the same message would be achieved by having a Veggie meal on one or two days of the week as opposed to every meal?

Unfortunately this is just someone pushing their beliefs on to everyone else with little care for the actual pupils or families. If the school is sending home the supplements that are needed as part of a Vegetarian diet then fair enough, but they aren't, they don't actually care about the health of the pupils, just that their beliefs are adopted by them.

Anyone who has been involved in the school system knows that there are families that rely on school meals to provide a balanced diet for their kids, some of these don't have the option of sending a Packed lunch due to financial constraints. Either give them the Vegetarian option or make it Veggie Mondays and Wednesdays or something similar- it's simple really.

[Volvoclaret]

Hitler was a veggie.

Taking top trumps with this, getting a Hitler reference in a local school thread

[Lancasterclaret]

Hitler was a veggie.

Taking top trumps with this, getting a Hitler reference in a local school thread

You could have gone all in though

Something like

"Hitler was a veggie, and I bet he started that because of something that happened at school"

It would have been close to too obvious, but with the state of this board at the moment you'd have probably convinced more than a few