How many current prem managers as well as SD would........

[s6t9a2f3f]

Still be in a job after 3 wins from 27 matches this season ??

Pep and Klopp ? Or would patience even have run out with those two ??

[Bordeauxclaret]

I doubt Burnley would sack either of them two.

[Burnleyareback2]

Still be in a job after 3 wins from 27 matches this season ??

Pep and Klopp ? Or would patience even have run out with those two ??

What’s your point?

[s6t9a2f3f]

Look at the clubs above us who have changed Spurs, Newcastle, Everton, Leeds, watford, wolves, united, villa, with 1 team below us Norwich that's also changed managers so it's just interesting. Does the board want a change as 3/27 it's not rocket science this isn't going well or has the new contract and its probable pay off made it so their hands are tied with it ?
Or has the 9 clubs above that have reacted - over reacted ?

[fidelcastro]

Look at the clubs above us who have changed Spurs, Newcastle, Everton, Leeds, watford, wolves, united, villa, with 1 team below us Norwich that's also changed managers so it's just interesting. Does the board want a change as 3/27 it's not rocket science this isn't going well or has the new contract and its probable pay off made it so their hands are tied with it ?
Or has the 9 clubs above that have reacted - over reacted ?

The fact he signed a new contract relatively recently and that there probably isn't another manager out there, who we could realistically attract to keep us up with this group of players, probably explains why he hasn't been sacked.

[s6t9a2f3f]

The fact he signed a new contract relatively recently and that there probably isn't another manager out there, who we could realistically attract to keep us up with this group of players, probably explains why he hasn't been sacked.

Fair point well made

[Transpennine]

Dyche has his faults like everyone. But our predicament is a result of years of under-investment. Nothing else.

[s6t9a2f3f]

Dyche has his faults like everyone. But our predicament is a result of years of under-investment. Nothing else.

Could say Norwich not say the same ? Got some silly money for transfers out last couple of years but not invested heavy ?

[Jakubclaret]

The fact he signed a new contract relatively recently and that there probably isn't another manager out there, who we could realistically attract to keep us up with this group of players, probably explains why he hasn't been sacked.

Laughable justification when you could legitimately argue we are where we are due to not making any changes sooner & staying with the same methods & players & not evolving.

[fidelcastro]

Laughable justification when you could legitimately argue we are where we are due to not making any changes sooner & staying with the same methods & players & not evolving.

Changes with the current squad or not bringing new players in?

If it's the former, then there aren't many alternatives. If it's the latter, I think the owners and the recruitment team are more likely at fault than the manager.

The only thing laughable is your obsession with my posts.

[Jakubclaret]

Changes with the current squad or not bringing new players in?

If it's the former, then there aren't many alternatives. If it's the latter, I think the owners and the recruitment team are more likely at fault than the manager.

The only thing laughable is your obsession with my posts.

The obsession is purely disagreeing with most of what you post, the manager usually identifies XYZ & the guy signing the cheques is supposed to make that happen or at least try to, a combination does exist with MG & AP for where we are but SD must take some responsibility & can’t be absolved of blame he’s supposed to be an important cog in the wheel that’s BFC. All 3 have been pretty abysmal as a fair assessment in my view.

[Newcastleclaret93]

The obsession is purely disagreeing with most of what you post, the manager usually identifies XYZ & the guy signing the cheques is supposed to make that happen or at least try to, a combination does exist with MG & AP for where we are but SD must take some responsibility & can’t be absolved of blame he’s supposed to be an important cog in the wheel that’s BFC. All 3 have been pretty abysmal as a fair assessment in my view.

I agree

Garlick is at fault for under investing and for probably not being as strong with Dyche as he needed to be.

Pace has invested but clearly has not prioritised the right positions and the players that have come in clearly do not fit our rigid 442 system.

Dyche is at fault for getting us to incredible highs then failing to adapt his game. His tactics have stood still and unfortunately he has been caught up and overtaken.

I have come to terms with the fact we have had a great run and it’s now about stabilising the club financially and building to go again over the next few years.

But to answer the OP clearly no other manager on the planet would survive that form especially when you consider it goes back further than the last 27 games.

[Jakubclaret]

I agree

Garlick is at fault for under investing and for probably not being as strong with Dyche as he needed to be.

Pace has invested but clearly has not prioritised the right positions and the players that have come in clearly do not fit our rigid 442 system.

Dyche is at fault for getting us to incredible highs then failing to adapt his game. His tactics have stood still and unfortunately he has been caught up and overtaken.

I have come to terms with the fact we have had a great run and it’s now about stabilising the club financially and building to go again over the next few years.

But to answer the OP clearly no other manager on the planet would survive that form especially when you consider it goes back further than the last 27 games.

But no other manager would be in a position with a contract drawn up pretty much safeguarding their position knowing full well that the owners can’t afford to pay him out, he’s as safe as houses despite the wretched form & under no sort of pressure to rectify that.

[Caballo]

Could say Norwich not say the same ? Got some silly money for transfers out last couple of years but not invested heavy ?

And they're below us in the table despite changing their manager, have you not just defeated your own argument?

[Spijed]

I agree

Garlick is at fault for under investing and for probably not being as strong with Dyche as he needed to be.

Pace has invested but clearly has not prioritised the right positions and the players that have come in clearly do not fit our rigid 442 system.

Dyche is at fault for getting us to incredible highs then failing to adapt his game. His tactics have stood still and unfortunately he has been caught up and overtaken.

I have come to terms with the fact we have had a great run and it’s now about stabilising the club financially and building to go again over the next few years.

But to answer the OP clearly no other manager on the planet would survive that form especially when you consider it goes back further than the last 27 games.

On the flip side, every single club on a similar budget that has tried to evolve in terms of playing style has ended up being relegated after one or two seasons.

That's why no other club of a similar size has lasted as long as we have in the PL unless you accept relegation every other season and then hope to come back up.

Basically, trying to evolve in the prem never works unless you have a far bigger budget than we have. Other clubs have proven it never works.

[TheFamilyCat]

On the flip side, every single club on a similar budget that has tried to evolve in terms of playing style has ended up being relegated after one or two seasons.

That's why no other club of a similar size has lasted as long as we have in the PL unless you accept relegation every other season and then hope to come back up.

Basically, trying to evolve in the prem never works unless you have a far bigger budget than we have. Other clubs have proven it never works.

I agree. There is no reason why our formation and tactics can't be effective. Sadly, we have failed to refresh the squad sufficiently to continue doing it effectively.

[Newcastleclaret93]

On the flip side, every single club on a similar budget that has tried to evolve in terms of playing style has ended up being relegated after one or two seasons.

That's why no other club of a similar size has lasted as long as we have in the PL unless you accept relegation every other season and then hope to come back up.

Basically, trying to evolve in the prem never works unless you have a far bigger budget than we have. Other clubs have proven it never works.

You make out like We don’t spend any money and pay championship wages.

Leeds have done it, Newcastle have changed style numerous times, Palace have changed. The list is endless, this theory that only Dyche could achieve staying up for 6 years is getting tired.

[Spijed]

You make out like We don’t spend any money and pay championship wages.

Leeds have done it, Newcastle have changed style numerous times, Palace have changed. The list is endless, this theory that only Dyche could achieve staying up for 6 years is getting tired.

Why did Leeds sack the manager if it was working?

And both Newcastle and Palace have had more money to spend in the same time SD has been with us.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Why did Leeds sack the manager if it was working?

And both Newcastle and Palace have had more money to spend in the same time SD has been with us.

Because they wanted to confirm they were staying up by changing the style.

We haven’t changed the style and will be relegated.

Newcastle and palace have had more money but not enough to make the gap as big you make out. You make out like they have spent hundreds of millions more than us and it’s a miracle Dyche has kept us up. It’s complete nonsense, Dyche has performed very well for us but ultimately he is part of a three person problem that is resulting in relegation.

[TheFamilyCat]

How many times have Newcastle been relegated recently?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I agree

Garlick is at fault for under investing and for probably not being as strong with Dyche as he needed to be.

Pace has invested but clearly has not prioritised the right positions and the players that have come in clearly do not fit our rigid 442 system.

Dyche is at fault for getting us to incredible highs then failing to adapt his game. His tactics have stood still and unfortunately he has been caught up and overtaken.

I have come to terms with the fact we have had a great run and it’s now about stabilising the club financially and building to go again over the next few years.

But to answer the OP clearly no other manager on the planet would survive that form especially when you consider it goes back further than the last 27 games.

Daniel Farke lasted a longer run I believe when at Norwich over their two PL campaigns.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Sacking a manager during a relegation battle requires the consideration of two things.
1- can the manager keep the club up.
2- if not, can they lead the club back up either the first attempt or the 2nd year

Dyche has proven he can do both.

[IanMcL]

The only thing laughable is your obsession with my posts.

Hmmm...

[warksclaret]

The fact he has remained for so long shows he has huge credits from past performances. He has become "very big" within the club, which is rare in the PL these days. Mass under investment in players, lack of planning with the squad, the first team and contracts, and a rigidity in the way we play, are a our downfall.IN the early part of the PL we had Vokes/Ings, then Vokes/Gray, then Wood/Barnes. All these combinations were a handful. What have we had in the last two years-4 strikers out of form, injured, or failing big style to score. We have gone from hard to play against to "easy victories" for many sides. If we play two big ones up front now, the opposition simply play three at the back. Yes with the squad we have SD has run out of ideas -hence 3 wins in nearly 30. Coaching has moved on big style-we have not.To answer the question no other PL club would have persevered

[snapcrackleandpop]

Dyche has his faults like everyone. But our predicament is a result of years of under-investment. Nothing else.

Really?

[boatshed bill]

Still be in a job after 3 wins from 27 matches this season ??

Pep and Klopp ? Or would patience even have run out with those two ??

The obvious answer: None.

[Dy1geo]

As people keep saying be careful what you wish for. With a different manager we could have won 1 or 2 in 27 instead of the 3 in 27 that Dyche has achieved this season.

[snapcrackleandpop]

I think if Dyche had tried something different and we were still in this position I think people could stomach it a little easier.
But to stick with the same formation plus McNeil & Westwood as regular starters no matter what is lunacy.
Drop McNeil, I'm sick of seeing him with his face in his palm and play Cornet on the left and Jay up front.
Drop Westwood and put Cork back in it improves Brownhill and stop the punts forward.
If fit get Eric back in for Taylor.

[Spijed]

Coaching has moved on big style-we have not.

It's all well and good using that argument against us as a single club, but we are not the only team that will be relegated this or any other season.

Take Brentford and Brighton, for example. They have so-called progressive managers yet both are in danger of getting relegated in the next season or two if some of the promoted clubs, such as Fulham & Bournemouth stay up for a couple of years. And if it's not them then Leeds or Palace will go.

And let's be blunt about this, if any of them do go down, they will fully deserve to get relegated, just like us, simply because they won't be better than three other teams. No if's or but's.

However, I suspect the narrative for other teams going down will be markedly different than when we eventually drop and excuses will be rolled out, which is complete nonsense.

[JohnMac]

Years of underinvestment perhaps but don't forget the poor choices consistently made with the available money. No chance taken on young Colts from the lower leagues when there is a Carthorse available looking for one last round before the knackers yard.

[Spijed]

Years of underinvestment perhaps but don't forget the poor choices consistently made with the available money. No chance taken on young Colts from the lower leagues when there is a Carthorse available looking for one last round before the knackers yard.

We've signed quite a few who've gone into the U23 team, but like most players in the lower leagues they are unlikely to progress to PL level.

It's always a risk signing untried players. For every Vardy there will be far more than never succeed.

[tiger76]

I think if Dyche had tried something different and we were still in this position I think people could stomach it a little easier.
But to stick with the same formation plus McNeil & Westwood as regular starters no matter what is lunacy.
Drop McNeil, I'm sick of seeing him with his face in his palm and play Cornet on the left and Jay up front.
Drop Westwood and put Cork back in it improves Brownhill and stop the punts forward.
If fit get Eric back in for Taylor.

Exactly this whether by luck or design we finally hit upon a winning formula when Cork & Brownhill paired up in CM, Jay & Weghorst were up top, and we actually played the ball to their feet, then for reasons known only to SD he instantly brought Westwood back in, and lo and behold we revert to going direct again, and guess what we've barely created a chance in the 3 games since.

Yes we have limited options, but SD could be getting better results if he didn't keep making these bizarre selections, and he wasn't loyal to guys not performing.

In answer to the OP, no other PL club would tolerate such a poor run over virtually a full season, and if we include last season it's 13 wins in 65 games.

SD is very lucky he penned his new deal when he did, otherwise he'd be on a much stickier wicket.

For me he should go in the summer as his methods simply aren't working anymore, and a new man at the helm would hopefully offer a fresh approach, and crucially start developing younger talent, which has been one Sean's big failings in recent years, hence why Dwight is going backwards in his career for example.

[fidelcastro]

Exactly this whether by luck or design we finally hit upon a winning formula when Cork & Brownhill paired up in CM, Jay & Weghorst were up top, and we actually played the ball to their feet, then for reasons known only to SD he instantly brought Westwood back in, and lo and behold we revert to going direct again, and guess what we've barely created a chance in the 3 games since.

Yes we have limited options, but SD could be getting better results if he didn't keep making these bizarre selections, and he wasn't loyal to guys not performing.

In answer to the OP, no other PL club would tolerate such a poor run over virtually a full season, and if we include last season it's 13 wins in 65 games.

SD is very lucky he penned his new deal when he did, otherwise he'd be on a much stickier wicket.

For me he should go in the summer as his methods simply aren't working anymore, and a new man at the helm would hopefully offer a fresh approach, and crucially start developing younger talent, which has been one Sean's big failings in recent years, hence why Dwight is going backwards in his career for example.

Do you have someone in mind that would smash the championship like we did the last time we were relegated?

As someone else up the thread said, be careful what you wish for.

[Jakubclaret]

It's all well and good using that argument against us as a single club, but we are not the only team that will be relegated this or any other season.

Take Brentford and Brighton, for example. They have so-called progressive managers yet both are in danger of getting relegated in the next season or two if some of the promoted clubs, such as Fulham & Bournemouth stay up for a couple of years. And if it's not them then Leeds or Palace will go.

And let's be blunt about this, if any of them do go down, they will fully deserve to get relegated, just like us, simply because they won't be better than three other teams. No if's or but's.

However, I suspect the narrative for other teams going down will be markedly different than when we eventually drop and excuses will be rolled out, which is complete nonsense.

Football is a changing landscape that’s even more reason to roll the dice & explore what else is available. We haven’t evolved in any shape or form & what we once did successfully is no longer there, we need a new manager with fresh ideas & in large parts a new team to go with that.

[warksclaret]

It's all well and good using that argument against us as a single club, but we are not the only team that will be relegated this or any other season.

Take Brentford and Brighton, for example. They have so-called progressive managers yet both are in danger of getting relegated in the next season or two if some of the promoted clubs, such as Fulham & Bournemouth stay up for a couple of years. And if it's not them then Leeds or Palace will go.

And let's be blunt about this, if any of them do go down, they will fully deserve to get relegated, just like us, simply because they won't be better than three other teams. No if's or but's.

However, I suspect the narrative for other teams going down will be markedly different than when we eventually drop and excuses will be rolled out, which is complete nonsense.

You mention Brighton & Brentford as being in danger of being relegated in future. I dont share that as both have vision, finance and planning. Brentford could teach us a lesson in recruitment from the lower divisions and are commercially astute by selling when players are at the top of their worth (Watkins, Maupey just two examples). I suspect in Toney if he went for sale could command £35m (when you consider Wood went for £25m plus). Brighton have money and a great scouting system, capable of recruiting throughout the world) They also have a very astute modern manager in terms of formation and tactics, and doing analysis of the opposition each week.

[Spijed]

You mention Brighton & Brentford as being in danger of being relegated in future. I dont share that as both have vision, finance and planning. Brentford could teach us a lesson in recruitment from the lower divisions and are commercially astute by selling when players are at the top of their worth (Watkins, Maupey just two examples). I suspect in Toney if he went for sale could command £35m (when you consider Wood went for £25m plus). Brighton have money and a great scouting system, capable of recruiting throughout the world) They also have a very astute modern manager in terms of formation and tactics, and doing analysis of the opposition each week.

But if it's not them, it MUST therefore be either Palace, Leeds or Southampton in the next group.
If it's not them then it MUST be Villa, Wolves, Leicester, West Ham or Everton (likelihood they'll manage to re-group) in the next group.
If it's not them then it MUST be one of the big six, plus maybe Newcastle.

You are simply not taking into account that if any promoted club stops up then they MUST be replaced by one of the above, regardless of how well you think they are run.

So, if you don't think Brentford or Brighton will get relegated then who will go down, unless you think EVERY club who goes up will automatically come down for the next vew seasons?

[Chester Perry]

But no other manager would be in a position with a contract drawn up pretty much safeguarding their position knowing full well that the owners can’t afford to pay him out, he’s as safe as houses despite the wretched form & under no sort of pressure to rectify that.

It is not necessary to pay it all off in a lump sum, it can be paid in the same way it is now (that meets the terms of the contract, unless otherwise stipulated), any bonuses (the staying up one has always been the main one) would not necessarily be paid. It can also mean that if post dismissal, Dyche was to take a job elsewhere the shortfall between his new salary and that at Burnley would have to be met by the club. So it is not necessarily a one off lump sum payment, the full cost may be determined by Dyche's choice of returning to work elsewhere and at what salary - it all comes down to what his contract says.

The same would apply to any the staff that were sacked with him.

[Chester Perry]

You mention Brighton & Brentford as being in danger of being relegated in future. I dont share that as both have vision, finance and planning. Brentford could teach us a lesson in recruitment from the lower divisions and are commercially astute by selling when players are at the top of their worth (Watkins, Maupey just two examples). I suspect in Toney if he went for sale could command £35m (when you consider Wood went for £25m plus). Brighton have money and a great scouting system, capable of recruiting throughout the world) They also have a very astute modern manager in terms of formation and tactics, and doing analysis of the opposition each week.

Those models required owners with deep pockets to fund then, we never really have. It is impossible to have done what those clubs have done without that - or indeed without the sports analytics modelling capabilities that both owners have developed so well with their betting advisory services. The Brentford owner being a former employee of the Brighton owner.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You mention Brighton & Brentford as being in danger of being relegated in future. I dont share that as both have vision, finance and planning. Brentford could teach us a lesson in recruitment from the lower divisions and are commercially astute by selling when players are at the top of their worth (Watkins, Maupey just two examples). I suspect in Toney if he went for sale could command £35m (when you consider Wood went for £25m plus). Brighton have money and a great scouting system, capable of recruiting throughout the world) They also have a very astute modern manager in terms of formation and tactics, and doing analysis of the opposition each week.

Brighton -over £200 million in debt to Bloom, don't own their ground or training facilities last I checked.
Brentford - over £60 million in debt to their owner....

Both ran so well that without rich owners they'd be in the lower leagues still.

[Herts Clarets]

Sacking a manager during a relegation battle requires the consideration of two things.
1- can the manager keep the club up.
2- if not, can they lead the club back up either the first attempt or the 2nd year

Dyche has proven he can do both.

As they say in the financial world, Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future returns.

[Herts Clarets]

Sacking a manager during a relegation battle requires the consideration of two things.
1- can the manager keep the club up.
2- if not, can they lead the club back up either the first attempt or the 2nd year

Dyche has proven he can do both.

As they say in the financial world, Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future returns.

[evensteadiereddie]

In terms of proving Dyche's knowledge of what it requires to gain promotion from the Championship, I'd say it probably is...


He'd give us a very fair chance, given the backing, and that's good enough for me.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

As they say in the financial world, Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future returns.

That's right, but it's still a good indicator that he has what it takes compared to several others.

[boatshed bill]

This thread is well off topic.
It was a simple question, not an opportunity for the "Dyche in", "Dyche out" "Brigades" to continue their own arguement.
It's getting really boring now.

[boyyanno]

Dyche has his faults like everyone. But our predicament is a result of years of under-investment. Nothing else.

I can't agree with this sentiment unfortunately. Under investment and poor recruitment has certainly harmed us, however our two most recent wins showed that this team is capable of picking up points if the tactics and personal selected are the right ones.

The problem is both poor recruitment and an unwillingness to change.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

This thread is well off topic.
It was a simple question, not an opportunity for the "Dyche in", "Dyche out" "Brigades" to continue their own arguement.
It's getting really boring now.

The OP is Dyche out, always has been and any time we hit a rough patch the OP appears and makes threads slating Dyche off etc, like this one, which is clearly a Dyche out thread.
When we do well the OP quietens down and pretty much disappears

[kenyon6923]

some real interesting views and thoughts, one thing I do think is IF relegation happens and we lose 1-2 to ? 7-8 players as clubs do and it might be because their contract is up, handy to get off the wage bill, right time to sell etc etc the rebuilding will certainly be still so difficult. It will be so easy to say such a player is "out of their depth" in prem but "they will be ok in championship" as the aim/ambitious should be to restart a prem campaign come August 2023.

[Shaggy]

I think anyone know that no one else at any other club would have survived our form for the last couple of years under SD.

Yes we haven’t invested huge amounts of money granted but there has been some investment. Unfortunately the said SD has wasted it by preferring to sign “experienced” players who fit into a tight criteria. SD has been very poor at selling to fund purchases and he and his team have spectacularly mismanaged one of our record signings.

The stubbornness in tactics and personnel is mainly down to SD therefore this decline is down to SD. Peak Dyche has come and gone certainly with us.

[tiger76]

Do you have someone in mind that would smash the championship like we did the last time we were relegated?

As someone else up the thread said, be careful what you wish for.

No I don't, but unlike some posters I'm not convinced we will smash the Championship under Sean this time.

Different financial situation and an ageing squad are the 2 main reasons I fear life should we drop won't be as comfortable as many appear to imagine.

Chris Wilder would have been my prime target, but he's now settled at Boro.

[Chester Perry]

I have long hated the binary bickering on here about the various issues but I thank the lord that we haven't reached this stage yet and hope we never do - for the uninitiated this is about Bale after last nights strong performance for Wales

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1 ... KMn-spAAAA