Dyche is still the man for the job without a shadow of doubt.

[ClaretMov]

Burnley are not a premier league club, we've enjoyed punching above our weight in the top flight for season's but time's have moved on so have playing style's and tactics but unfortunately we haven't, for the size of the town and all the money in modern football Burnley are probably punching above our weight in the championship.

We've had a unbelievable time under Dyche taking us into Europe and beating all of the top six clubs but we've stayed still and modern football overtook us, will we ever play top flight football again who knows, personally I think it's time for Dyche to go at the end of the season.

Dyche has been fantastic for Burnley but ask yourself this is it just Burnley fan's who think this with our claret tinted specs on because in all his time here not one single club has made an attempt to take him off us.

We have a multi million pound academy yet it's produced nothing, is it because Dyche simply won't play/try youth because he sticks to the same tactics, formation and players week in week out over the past 20 month's even though its clearly not working, he's to stubborn for his own good.

To those who want him to stay because they think he's the man to get us out of the Championship, yes he's it done twice before but it was years ago and even the championship has moved on since, how long do you give him, would you say until Christmas if we aren't top ten by then or for the remainder of his contract because he's done it before.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Sunderland were going to take him until Dick Advocaat did a U-turn.

The Academy is starting to produce better quality players but it was always going to take time.

[Dy1geo]

The failure to recycle players in the last few years has contributed to the position we are in.

In our early years we moved on players, Keane, Andre and Vokes to name but 3 raised around £50mil. But the reality of the Premier League is once you are in it the cost of signing players is overinflated, we signed Brady, Hendrick 2 players who overtime we allowed their amortisation value to reduce to zero, Jay, Cork and Vydra are another three players who we signed for £10mil + who will be going for nothing.

The lack of spare funds meant we signed filler players such as Stephens who quite frankly from what I have seen is Championship standard at best.

A club like this to stay in the league needs to move on players at their peak value, Brentford will probably sell Toney this summer, Southampton have consistently sold their best players.

The question to be asked, is Dyche the man to go back down the league looking for players, is he the man to bring in loan players with options to buy and more importantly bring youth through.

[Spijed]

Burnley are not a premier league club, we've enjoyed punching above our weight in the top flight for season's but time's have moved on so have playing style's and tactics but unfortunately we haven't, for the size of the town and all the money in modern football Burnley are probably punching above our weight in the championship.

So where are those other similar sized clubs that have a better style and tactic's than us?
Why aren't they managing to stay in the PL for more than a season or two.

Remember teams like Huddersfield, with a similar level of spending failed miserably in that respect.

A better style or tactics simply do not exist, otherwise you'd see other teams doing better that us, of which there are none.

[CoolClaret]

So where are those other similar sized clubs that have a better style and tactic's than us?
Why aren't they managing to stay in the PL for more than a season or two.

Remember teams like Huddersfield, with a similar level of spending failed miserably in that respect.

A better style or tactics simply do not exist, otherwise you'd see other teams doing better that us, of which there are none.

Brentford are not a bigger club than us

No way in hell

[gandhisflipflop]

The thing that worries me is this. We have so many out of contract players in the summer, so whatever happens a rebuild is required. If we stick with Dyche, does he then go out and replace them with yet more players with no resale value? And if he does and it doesn’t work, we could be left with a load of players under contract under a new manager that might not necessarily want that we can’t move on. We are at a crossroads, and if we are to evolve the style then 2 things need to change, that’s Dyches mentality or a new manager.

[RVclaret]

A better style or tactics simply do not exist, otherwise you'd see other teams doing better that us, of which there are none.

Oh come on. Many other clubs, including Huddersfield, have employed pragmatic tactics which also failed. It’s not about being pragmatic, I’m all for that, it’s the long ball hot potato football acting like a league 2 team after spending the amount of money we have which is frustrating.

[Spijed]

Brentford are not a bigger club than us

No way in hell

And what have they achieved that Sheff United or Huddersfield didn't in the seasons they both stayed up?
Until they have several years unbroken at this level then you can't judge.
After their first season everyone was glowing in their praise of Sheff United, and then look what happened.
Also, haven't Brentford been given an additional £60 million by their owner?

[RVclaret]

The thing that worries me is this. We have so many out of contract players in the summer, so whatever happens a rebuild is required. If we stick with Dyche, does he then go out and replace them with yet more players with no resale value? And if he does and it doesn’t work, we could be left with a load of players under contract under a new manager that might not necessarily want that we can’t move on. We are at a crossroads, and if we are to evolve the style then 2 things need to change, that’s Dyches mentality or a new manager.

Certainly interesting, you do wonder if there a divergence between what ALK and Pace (resale value players) and what Dyche wants (Older pros with no resale). But then again, Pace has backed Dyche to the heavens and back in the press and of course with the 4 year contract.

[JR1882]

Brentford are not a bigger club, however they are on a similar footing financially and, being in west london are a far more attractive proposition than us when we are in for the same calibre of players.

They are also much better at recruitment than we are.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Brentford have been bankrolled for a number of years now, so they've been able to take more risk with recruiting from lower leagues in the hope they can find some gems.

It worked well in the lower leagues, it now needs to work for them in the PL and that's going to be the interesting part.

Their last lot of accounts showed debts of £60 million I think it was.

[Devils_Advocate]

This is why the silly point Spijed keeps making is pretty mute. He mentions Sheff Utd but when they were doing well he was pointing to their new owners and money spent just like he's now doing with Brentford. This means his sample size is 3 because when teams have come up on small budgets they've been backed by richer owners and therefore dont count.

This doesn't detract from what Dyche as done but when every club in the Premier League spends more then Burnley then by Spijeds own terms it is impossible for a team to replicate what Burnley have done because they dont exist.

I would expect if Norwich had managed to stay up they would have had more money to spend and so Spijed would have suddenly excluded them as not being on the same budget.

What Dyche has achieved has been amazing but the methodology Spijed uses to try and highlight this is nonsense

[boyyanno]

So where are those other similar sized clubs that have a better style and tactic's than us?
Why aren't they managing to stay in the PL for more than a season or two.

Remember teams like Huddersfield, with a similar level of spending failed miserably in that respect.

A better style or tactics simply do not exist, otherwise you'd see other teams doing better that us, of which there are none.

I've seen numerous posts asking for the "examples" and I'm sure they have mainly come from yourself. Can I ask you this, have we not been the example?

Have we not shown that a smaller club CAN compete with the bigger boys/in the premier league, playing better football than we are now? I'd say the answer is yes, we had found a formula that worked but we have deviated from it- That's why we will go down.

[warksclaret]

We had something special. We managed our business brilliantly, bringing in a few key players each season for the first 4-5 years. We became the "model" other promoted clubs aspired to for longevity in the PL, and managing your finances responsibly and astutely. Then we became complacent. We went window after window without any significant signing. Who do we blame?. Well Garlick was keeping his hands in his pocket knowing he could put the club in new hands, and SD it would appear seemed to accept it. Then of course there was the rift between the two. For me there was a major failing in SD-should have been more of a "Conte", ie strengthen the team in the right areas or I walk. It almost seems that SD has got the refusal to strengthen the team up his sleeve. If he was ever to go, the media would put it down to not being supported .I feel SD has a lot to answer for because of his stubborness-the fact we have a CM thats needed strengthening for 2-3 seasons is not excusable

We could still have something special if only as a business we had operated in the same way as we did in the first four years-ie buy and sell astutely , and manage the contracts. I am resigned to relegation, I cant stand the same old post match comments-pleased with the performance, we asked questions, fine margins,did not create those moments. I am now more intrigued as to what happens when the sesason ends and how the new owners act

[Quickenthetempo]

Dyche would have had plenty of money if he sold players at the right time.
It's a must for a club our size.

[Spijed]

This is why the silly point Spijed keeps making is pretty mute. He mentions Sheff Utd but when they were doing well he was pointing to their new owners and money spent just like he's now doing with Brentford. This means his sample size is 3 because when teams have come up on small budgets they've been backed by richer owners and therefore dont count.

This doesn't detract from what Dyche as done but when every club in the Premier League spends more then Burnley then by Spijeds own terms it is impossible for a team to replicate what Burnley have done because they dont exist.

I would expect if Norwich had managed to stay up they would have had more money to spend and so Spijed would have suddenly excluded them as not being on the same budget.

What Dyche has achieved has been amazing but the methodology Spijed uses to try and highlight this is nonsense

But to date, no club has been able to replicate what we've done by playing better football. The point I'm making is that we've only managed to survive is by playing a system that works, not one that is seen as trendy (such as passing out from the back).

That clearly doesn't work.

So why try and get promoted if you aren't bothered about stopping there?

[spt_claret]

I've seen numerous posts asking for the "examples" and I'm sure they have mainly come from yourself. Can I ask you this, have we not been the example?

Have we not shown that a smaller club CAN compete with the bigger boys/in the premier league, playing better football than we are now? I'd say the answer is yes, we had found a formula that worked but we have deviated from it- That's why we will go down.

This is the very point being made. We set the precedent, we are the only example- so changing the one common and leading factor throughout that time (the manager) is an astronomically dangerous risk.
Which is it- we've deviated from a formula so are going down or Dyche has refused to change his formula so we're going down?
Maybe it comes back to what Spijed is trying to illustrate- that multiple years of stifled investment have ground us down, regardless of the manager. Selling our best players at peak value is an impossible alternate scenario to map relying entirely on recruiting equal or better for the same or less money, which is always a tough proposal no matter your funds. No club likes to sell their best and try to replenish because it's so challenging to do well.

This is why the silly point Spijed keeps making is pretty mute. He mentions Sheff Utd but when they were doing well he was pointing to their new owners and money spent just like he's now doing with Brentford. This means his sample size is 3 because when teams have come up on small budgets they've been backed by richer owners and therefore dont count.

This doesn't detract from what Dyche as done but when every club in the Premier League spends more then Burnley then by Spijeds own terms it is impossible for a team to replicate what Burnley have done because they dont exist.

You have this utterly backwards. Those teams don't exist because the teams in comparable resource situations have failed to replicate what we've done, and even teams with owners with deeper pockets who can afford to live with debt for a while, have generally yo-yo's inspite of this budget. Meanwhile we now have the debt of such a club but without it having gone towards the playing staff OR be able to be underwritten by the owners.
We are the precedent, we are the only club that's achieved what we have with our resources and trying to equate other clubs cannot work- not because of methodology but because they are not equatable, they either needed more resources to achieve the same or failed to achieve it with the same resources.

[RVclaret]

But to date, no club has been able to replicate what we've done by playing better football. The point I'm making is that we've only managed to survive is by playing a system that works, not one that is seen as trendy (such as passing out from the back).

That clearly doesn't work.

So why try and get promoted if you aren't bothered about stopping there?

Stoke? They were in the PL for 10 years, 4 more than us, had a better European adventure, got to an FA Cup final. Stayed up for 4 seasons after Pulis left including top 10 finishes under Hughes playing better football. Similar to us, their decline was due to poor recruitment in the final years, leaving a lot of overpaid older pros. Crystal Palace? Been in the PL longer than us in recent times - they've never ever won a league title in their history v our 3 btw. They are now successfully transitioning towards more progressive, exciting football too. Palace fans have never been happier.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Stoke? They were in the PL for 10 years, 4 more than us, had a better European adventure, got to an FA Cup final. Stayed up for 4 seasons after Pulis left including top 10 finishes under Hughes playing better football. Similar to us, their decline was due to poor recruitment in the final years, leaving a lot of overpaid older pros.

Newcastle? They have had 5 years in the prem and always lived within there means under Ashley. Only recently have they heavily invested.

[RVclaret]

Newcastle? They have had 5 years in the prem and always lived within there means under Ashley. Only recently have they heavily invested.

Yep I think their net spend was almost equivelent to ours over the same period, if not lower.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Yep I think their net spend was almost equivelent to ours over the same period, if not lower.

It was lower I believe.

[spt_claret]

Dyche would have had plenty of money if he sold players at the right time.
It's a must for a club our size.

And had he done this you would have been outraged that as an established/European qualifying Premier League club we are still selling to mid table sides and need to hold on to our best players and upgrade on the weaker ones to go to the next level.
Which I think is fair, I would have been very concerned at us selling our best players. Even though Wood was out of form, unmotivated and paid for over the odds I was concerned to be losing him given his goal record.
Wanting to improve the squad and playstyle but also sell your best players to fund this are inherently at odds and an exceptionally difficult prospect without a top notch scouting, analytics and negotiating team- which with all the will in the world we don't have as those things cost money that we didn't have. We've been investing in that stuff slowly but it is a slow process when budgets are tight and has been slower than the growth of rival budgets. It's a plate spinning exercise which is extremely difficult to keep going, maybe we could have sold our best and unearthed gems to replace them AND move the squad forward, finding 3 for every 2 at an equivalent price. If we did we'd have amongst the best transfer and recruitment teams in the world.
Brentford have excellent facilities for this because they have spent years investing lots of money in this, especially relative to their rivals in the lower leagues. They started long before us and with a different starting position in terms of total and relative resources. The result is they now do have an exceptional recruitment setup relative to their resources but it is about how it's grown. It is also the one and only thing I 100% back our current owners on- they've made a lot of noise and investment in developing similar analytics setups, it's big in American Football and English football is about 10-20 years behind.

[claretandbluesky]

Sometimes you have to look at it from SD’s perspective.
Would he want to continue if we went down.

Somewhere in the last two years something has gone missing.
Something which appears like collective discipline and framework coherence.

On the field for an SD side we appear confused and incoherent
A side which has tired of doing the same thing over and over again for diminishing rewards.

SD and his side appear burnt out.

Yes we get the occasional glimmer but overall we appear jaded.

SD is the perfect manager to take over a talented but indisciplined side and bring order and coherence which then results in maximum effort for maximum rewards.

He is the perfect manager for an aspiring Championship side, or a talented but disorderly Premier League one.
He still has a big future in the game.

But is he the right manager for us if we go down and need to rebuild ?

I’m not convinced he’s a rebuilder, that I think takes a different skill set.

I would expect him therefore to look around for a club which he fits

I just don’t think that would be us anymore.

We will need an SC or EH depending on our finances.

SD may well be successful again before we are because his skills are transferable whilst we will be plunged into uncertainty, possibly at times feeling like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

But as a well known contributors on here reminds us.

Exciting times.
If you like the Big Dipper.

[Devils_Advocate]

You have this utterly backwards. Those teams don't exist because the teams in comparable resource situations have failed to replicate what we've done, and even teams with owners with deeper pockets who can afford to live with debt for a while, have generally yo-yo's inspite of this budget. resources.

Nope they dont exist because pretty much all teams who get promoted on small budgets are able to grow their budget once they have survived a season in the Premier League.

Palace were practically in admin when they got promoted and they managed to survive on a low budget for a year or two but the club grey their budget so even though they have not bee relegated they are discounted because they did what every club who spends a couple of years in the Premier League do - they spend more than Burnley.

Like I said it does not discount what Dyche has done but its just a ridiculous premise.

What if I said how many maanagers could take a club from League 1 to the Premier League and keep them there all within 3 or 4 seasons and then I discounted any manager and club who hadn't achieved that?

I could then say how Adkins, Howe and Wilder have achieved what no other managers including Dyche are able to do and move from lower league to Premier League in the space of a few seasons. I think taking a club from League 1 to the Premier League is a brilliant managerial achievement but it would be nonsense to use it as a single benchmark for assessing what managers and clubs are capable of because the sample size and opportunity to achieve it is very limited.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Dyche is a rebuilder, he's done it here more than once, just the last few seasons he's been hamstrung financially

[Jakubclaret]

When he’s had money he hasn’t spent it wisely or utilised the loan market the recruitments been nothing short of shambolic & not always down to a lack of resources.

[kenyon6923]

Dyche has done a magnificent job no doubt and will rightly go down as one of our best modern day managers and rightly so. The new manager lets face it is on a hiding to nothing, look at the squad they would inherent ? The bench this season has not been of any quality 90% of it and the 1st team will be weakened when Tarks leaves and if we get relegated then maybe Mee leaves ?, Pope leaves with the world cup November / December ? Cornet leaves ? so massive boots and gaps to fill. How much money will be available not only to replace but to improve the team/squad ? nobody knows. Then there's a lot of aging players that have done a great job for us but for the future (if we drop) need to go. Its a massive rebuilding job that cant be done in 1 window - the only thing in the new persons favour would be the last 2 seasons win ratios - that is very easy to match or even beat.

We have to be honest looking at the comments on this thread, SD might not be able to nourish/trust/play youth players, he likes a older/mature player, he is very well paid, his tatics before and during games dont seem the best and like all good things (Sir Alex, Wenger, Klopp and Pep when they leave next season) come to a end. I dont understand if we drop why people feel scared of the change ? for what reason ? just because we all have got used to that comfy armchair in SD ?

I personally feel a change and new challenge would suit both the club and SD if we drop, looking at the last 2 seasons win ratios new eyes, new ideas, different coaching, different perspective, possible different playing style and possible signing different types of players can only be seen as a positive thing.

[spt_claret]

Yep I think their net spend was almost equivelent to ours over the same period, if not lower.

Their wage budget was higher. Even in 2019-20 after the European bonuses had kicked in, highest pre-bonus wage we had according to footballleaguefc.com was Wood at 57.5/w. They had 6 above this, estimated at 65, 70, 75, 80 & 85k.
Net transfer spend is only half the picture, wage bills are a big part of it and one we have never been able to handle the same because again, we don't have the same revenue or owners able to underwrite the loss.

[claretandbluesky]

Rebuilders need to use the loan market, experiment with youth and system formations, in other words be open minded.
That’s not SD’s modus operandi.

He’s brings order and discipline to sides which already have talent.

Yes in a Championship setting he might be a little more flexible
And yes his ability to make use of war weary but savvy veterans might have it’s place,
But he’s not the person you’d choose to build up a side from scratch which is where we might well be.

[spt_claret]

Nope they dont exist because pretty much all teams who get promoted on small budgets are able to grow their budget once they have survived a season in the Premier League.

Palace were practically in admin when they got promoted and they managed to survive on a low budget for a year or two but the club grey their budget so even though they have not bee relegated they are discounted because they did what every club who spends a couple of years in the Premier League do - they spend more than Burnley.

Like I said it does not discount what Dyche has done but its just a ridiculous premise.

What if I said how many maanagers could take a club from League 1 to the Premier League and keep them there all within 3 or 4 seasons and then I discounted any manager and club who hadn't achieved that?

I could then say how Adkins, Howe and Wilder have achieved what no other managers including Dyche are able to do and move from lower league to Premier League in the space of a few seasons. I think taking a club from League 1 to the Premier League is a brilliant managerial achievement but it would be nonsense to use it as a single benchmark for assessing what managers and clubs are capable of because the sample size and opportunity to achieve it is very limited.

Exactly. THEY SPEND MORE. We haven't, whether you believe it's because we don't want to, or because we can't, or because we judged that selling our best to then spend more was too big a gamble given almost no clubs voluntarily part with their best players, it doesn't matter.
You're blaming the manager for a problem that is not his. He doesn't get to decide how much money he has to work with.
And I actually agree that those three are good managers (although you're again ignoring total and relative resources)

[Devils_Advocate]

But to date, no club has been able to replicate what we've done by playing better football. The point I'm making is that we've only managed to survive is by playing a system that works, not one that is seen as trendy (such as passing out from the back).

That clearly doesn't work.

So why try and get promoted if you aren't bothered about stopping there?

But you discount everyone who stays in the Premier League because by default they spend more then Burnley because we spend so little. If there was a list of clubs who had got into the Premier League and tried to survive on the same budget as Burnley then you could compare but there isn't so your premise is nonsense.

There are ways of highlighting the magnitude of what Dyche has done at Burnley without resorting using daft logic that proves and means nothing in real terms. You can do a lot better than this Spijed in your defence / praise of Sean Dyche and Burnley FC

[Devils_Advocate]

Exactly. THEY SPEND MORE. We haven't, whether you believe it's because we don't want to, or because we can't, or because we judged that selling our best to then spend more was too big a gamble given almost no clubs voluntarily part with their best players, it doesn't matter.
You're blaming the manager for a problem that is not his. He doesn't get to decide how much money he has to work with.
And I actually agree that those three are good managers (although you're again ignoring total and relative resources)

Who am I blaming?

Not sure if you are actually reading the posts but I am agreeing tha what Dyche has done is remarkable but the premise that no other manager could do it because no other manager has done is rubbish because through no fault of their own no other managers find themselves in the same position as Dyche to either succeed or fail.

[spt_claret]

When he’s had money he hasn’t spent it wisely or utilised the loan market the recruitments been nothing short of shambolic & not always down to a lack of resources.

On the loan market point, I'm going to bring up the same point again.
Wages.
Added to that, clubs sometimes want loan fees, but let's focus on wages.
Generally, a club will loan a player out with one of two assumptions:
-playing time
-wage contribution
And again given our budget (and budget versus revenue, as Chester keeps illustrating) we would be hard pressed to match other clubs offers on wage contribution even if we can offer playing time.
Which leaves us looking at younger rather than out of favour players.
Conor Gallagher is on 17k a week at Chelsea, that's matchable sure let's assume he's even wanting to temporarily relocate from London and picks us over Palace for a year up north.
He's also someone who would change our playstyle such that we'd almost certainly need a better defensive midfielder to come in as his partner, so it's not viable unless we have that also lined up- likewise signing such a cdm might not move us forward much relative to the expense if we can't get a partner in, so we might judge it better to wait, save that money, and try next window. It's one thing to straight swap a single player, another to upgrade and change an entire area of the pitch- which we vitally need to do in central midfield, and I'm trying to demonstrate how sometimes one deal can hinge on completing another deal especially if you're trying to change a partnership not an individual. Not saying I agree with this approach in terms of holding off unless you can get both, but this is also a board decision as money is involved.
It's not about agreeing with why we have or haven't made loans. Its about explaining the factors in play that influence that decision beyond "he just doesn't like loans".

[Lancasterclaret]

Whatever happens, it has to be right for club going forward

Dyche's record and achievement with us is remarkable, and that plays a huge part in what we do if we get relegated

As long as he's happy to stay, then I think I'm happy for him to stay

[jojomk1]

I believe our manager will leave at the end of the season. He has done a great job for Burnley but Burnley have done great for him made and his staff into millionares quite a few times over.

He does not need the grunt and grind of the Championship which will do little for his prestige.

Better to wait, recharge his batteries, wait it out until next Christmas period when four or five times at the bottom start the annual panic and he becomes the man who kept Burnley in the PL for six years on a shorestring budget, with pundits informing us that Klopp or Pep could not have done a better job than Dyche.

So you think he will walk away from a 4 year contract worth £m's

[Jakubclaret]

So you think he will walk away from a 4 year contract worth £m's

No chance he’s leaving with nothing he didn’t spend god knows how long negotiating an extension to his contraction without protection, it’s extremely humorous that some people think he’d just walk away without a severance/settlement package, he played a blinder & the club fell for it hook line & sinker.

[RVclaret]

On the loan market point, I'm going to bring up the same point again.
Wages.
Added to that, clubs sometimes want loan fees, but let's focus on wages.
Generally, a club will loan a player out with one of two assumptions:
-playing time
-wage contribution
And again given our budget (and budget versus revenue, as Chester keeps illustrating) we would be hard pressed to match other clubs offers on wage contribution even if we can offer playing time.
Which leaves us looking at younger rather than out of favour players.
Conor Gallagher is on 17k a week at Chelsea, that's matchable sure let's assume he's even wanting to temporarily relocate from London and picks us over Palace for a year up north.
He's also someone who would change our playstyle such that we'd almost certainly need a better defensive midfielder to come in as his partner, so it's not viable unless we have that also lined up- likewise signing such a cdm might not move us forward much relative to the expense if we can't get a partner in, so we might judge it better to wait, save that money, and try next window. It's one thing to straight swap a single player, another to upgrade and change an entire area of the pitch- which we vitally need to do in central midfield, and I'm trying to demonstrate how sometimes one deal can hinge on completing another deal especially if you're trying to change a partnership not an individual. Not saying I agree with this approach in terms of holding off unless you can get both, but this is also a board decision as money is involved.
It's not about agreeing with why we have or haven't made loans. Its about explaining the factors in play that influence that decision beyond "he just doesn't like loans".

You are a real excuse maker. You’d fit right in with Burnley’s recruitment set up. Everything is against little old Burnley isn’t it. Not like we have been one of the top 40 richest clubs in the world for the past 6 seasons playing in the best league in the world. But no one wants to join us, we can’t afford anyone and we should just accept that.

Onto your actual point, Dyche has said many times he doesn’t like loans. Remember when we had Bamford on loan and how he was treated? Why would any club in the right mind loan him a young player like that?

[Tribesmen]

He is the man, simple as that .

[Marney&Mee]

I believe our manager will leave at the end of the season. He has done a great job for Burnley but Burnley have done great for him made and his staff into millionares quite a few times over.

He does not need the grunt and grind of the Championship which will do little for his prestige.

Better to wait, recharge his batteries, wait it out until next Christmas period when four or five times at the bottom start the annual panic and he becomes the man who kept Burnley in the PL for six years on a shorestring budget, with pundits informing us that Klopp or Pep could not have done a better job than Dyche.

I think you're right unfortunately. If I was the big ginger disc bearded fella I'd be a bit miffed now. He's clearly a top top manager, but having his hands tied to £55k a week players doesn't allow us to attract the right calibre and number of players. Championship players like Watkins, Benrahma, Bowen, Antonio, Robertson etc etc are all on £100k/week +...and there lies the problem

[spt_claret]

You are a real excuse maker. You’d fit right in with Burnley’s recruitment set up. Everything is against little old Burnley isn’t it. Not like we have been one of the top 40 richest clubs in the world for the past 6 seasons playing in the best league in the world. But no one wants to join us, we can’t afford anyone and we should just accept that.

Onto your actual point, Dyche has said many times he doesn’t like loans. Remember when we had Bamford on loan and how he was treated? Why would any club in the right mind loan him a young player like that?

Not half as many excuses as you make for our new owners pal, who in an instant took us from that top 40 richest to riddled with debt.
I said I don't necessarily agree with those decisions on loans, personally I'd take a punt on a loan or signing even if we couldn't sign players judged to partner them- Weghorst I think is a good example of this we haven't got the players in to partner him but I'm not against his signing. As for the example I gave of Gallagher I can say based on his West Brom spell I probably wouldn't have punted on a loan in the summer- permanent maybe as that has more longterm prospect or recouping of losses if you sell, in hindsight of course you'd take him on loan regardless of who else you could get in around him but at the time it looked to be more of a gamble, and yes Viera did well to take that but not all gambles pay off, you can argue we've been overly risk averse but I would take excess caution over excess risk.
I was making the point that there's other factors besides aversion to the loan market which influence loans. Wage contribution, playing time, and the willingness of a player to relocate temporarily are all big factors. A London club is generally more likely to get a loan from another London club assuming wage/playing time are equal because of this reason.
I do remember Bamford, I also remember he didn't impress for us despite how well he's done since. Maybe he underperformed because of friction with Dyche, maybe he had friction with Dyche because he was underperforming and not applying himself. Hard to say which as his record elsewhere is good and Dyches man management with others is good. You're the one attributing all the fault to one party, not me. I'm not denying our utilisation of the loan market is poor I'm just explaining why that cannot be reduced to a singular "Dyches fault" explanation which fits your narrative that he needs to go.
You pathologically neglect information and arguments which don't fit with what you want to argue against, so you can try to win your point rather than engage in good faith.

[nyclaret]

Is Sean Dyche now bigger than Burnley FC? It’s almost as if there was no Burnley FC before Sean Dyche. We’ve been around a long time before this fella with some amazing times and we will be around a lot longer than him. Nothing surer than that.

[Lancasterclaret]

Is Sean Dyche now bigger than Burnley FC? It’s almost as if there was no Burnley FC before Sean Dyche. We’ve been around a long time before this fella with some amazing times and we will be around a lot longer than him. Nothing surer than that.

Well, if you want a serious discussion about stuff like this, then you need people to stop the stuff that is clearly either made up ******** or very fanciful imaginative views of what our players can do if we had a different manager

The reality is that since SD has taken over we've been good or very good for at least a decade (spare me the stuff about it being rubbish to watch, every team that isn't a top six contender can look rubbish enough times in a season sadly) and the majority of that has been spent at the top level, with a European qualification (not for winning a cup, but for actually being consistent enough all season to end up in 7th place) to top it off

He also got relegated before, and then bought us back up with a 23 game unbeaten run to win the championship

Maybe its time for a change, but if he is willing to stay and rebuild the team again, then he's got massive previous in getting it absolutely right, and that does need to be remembered

[BOYSIE31]

Burnley are not a premier league club, we've enjoyed punching above our weight in the top flight for season's but time's have moved on so have playing style's and tactics but unfortunately we haven't, for the size of the town and all the money in modern football Burnley are probably punching above our weight in the championship.

We've had a unbelievable time under Dyche taking us into Europe and beating all of the top six clubs but we've stayed still and modern football overtook us, will we ever play top flight football again who knows, personally I think it's time for Dyche to go at the end of the season.

Dyche has been fantastic for Burnley but ask yourself this is it just Burnley fan's who think this with our claret tinted specs on because in all his time here not one single club has made an attempt to take him off us.

We have a multi million pound academy yet it's produced nothing, is it because Dyche simply won't play/try youth because he sticks to the same tactics, formation and players week in week out over the past 20 month's even though its clearly not working, he's to stubborn for his own good.

To those who want him to stay because they think he's the man to get us out of the Championship, yes he's it done twice before but it was years ago and even the championship has moved on since, how long do you give him, would you say until Christmas if we aren't top ten by then or for the remainder of his contract because he's done it before.

For size of town google Villarreal and see what they did last night

Bored of the size of town per footie team - if you can put together a squad that can play you will be ok

[spt_claret]

Is Sean Dyche now bigger than Burnley FC? It’s almost as if there was no Burnley FC before Sean Dyche. We’ve been around a long time before this fella with some amazing times and we will be around a lot longer than him. Nothing surer than that.

Nobody is arguing this. You are tilting at windmills.
What people are arguing is that on the balance of probability based on evidence regarding how Dyche has performed at Burnley both as an absolute measure and relative to resources, and relative to the performance of comparably equipped clubs, or resources of comparably performing clubs, there is little evidence and low probability that an alternative manager could do a better job at this current time dealing with the present situation that Burnley finds itself in, so replacing him would be an enormous risk with an uncertain outcome and very high probability of failure at a time when the club cannot afford such a failure and is already experiencing high levels of risk and uncertainty.
That cannot be reduced to "which is bigger, who do you support more?". Of course he's not bigger or more important than Burnley, of course the club comes first. The difference is whether people believe that there's someone out there who can realistically do better who is realistically available. And of course if we end up in the Championship struggling or off the mark around November to December, that evaluation changes and it begins to look much more probable that there are alternatives available.

[Lancasterclaret]

For size of town google Villarreal and see what they did last night

Bored of the size of town per footie team - if you can put together a squad that can play you will be ok

Now, if you don't want a serious discussion, then this is the way to go

So tell me, which decisions that we needed to have made so that we'd have won the Europa League and qualified for the champions league because of that

Is it as simple as signing Ashley Westwood instead of someone else?

Come on Boysie, you can't leave us hanging with a two word reply like that!

[spt_claret]

For size of town google Villarreal and see what they did last night

Bored of the size of town per footie team - if you can put together a squad that can play you will be ok

2 words: Unai Emery.
He's a world class manager whose record proves it. Arsenal have significantly dropped since he left for all their exciting youngsters, his inaugural season at PSG they'd just lost Ibrahimovic, Digne and Luiz and came 2nd to a Monaco with Mbappe and did the cup double. He was phenomenal at Sevilla.
Would I have him over Dyche? Are you kidding, of course I would, he's probably the best manager in the world when it comes to overperforming with smaller or struggling clubs, clubs at or just below Europa level he's the perfect man for. But he turned down Newcastle, he'd never come here.

[BOYSIE31]

It's called good recruitment and a decent playing style

[Lancasterclaret]

It's called good recruitment and a decent playing style

Nine word coaching masterclass

Piece of **** on championship manager isn't it mate?

I want this man in charge right now

(I'm massively taking the p**s because you clearly are btw!)

[boyyanno]

This is the very point being made. We set the precedent, we are the only example- so changing the one common and leading factor throughout that time (the manager) is an astronomically dangerous risk.
Which is it- we've deviated from a formula so are going down or Dyche has refused to change his formula so we're going down?
Maybe it comes back to what Spijed is trying to illustrate- that multiple years of stifled investment have ground us down, regardless of the manager. Selling our best players at peak value is an impossible alternate scenario to map relying entirely on recruiting equal or better for the same or less money, which is always a tough proposal no matter your funds. No club likes to sell their best and try to replenish because it's so challenging to do well.

You have this utterly backwards. Those teams don't exist because the teams in comparable resource situations have failed to replicate what we've done, and even teams with owners with deeper pockets who can afford to live with debt for a while, have generally yo-yo's inspite of this budget. Meanwhile we now have the debt of such a club but without it having gone towards the playing staff OR be able to be underwritten by the owners.
We are the precedent, we are the only club that's achieved what we have with our resources and trying to equate other clubs cannot work- not because of methodology but because they are not equatable, they either needed more resources to achieve the same or failed to achieve it with the same resources.

I disagree with a lot of this, it's a bit like having your cake and eating it. You can't say it's never been done whilst accepting that we have managed to do it for the past number of years. We've had a European finish on a shoestring budget and our squad is better than it was when we first came up and stayed up. I have no doubt that a lot of this was due to good management, but if we have proved it's possible to do it then the alternative is that we have ballsed it up by going away from (what was for us) a tried and tested formula. Specifically on the pitch we no longer play like the Burnley of old. These problems are not only down to personal, as I've said our squad is better than it has been previously imo. We have lost our ability to mix it up, to be effective and we have certainly lost some of our work rate.

Everyone keeps saying we'll no one else has done it so it's not possible- we have, so it is if we get it right. We have not got it right, from recruitment through to management. People can't go on blindly doing anything they can to not point a finger at Dyche. He isn't bigger than the club nor will he ever be and he has contributed (after several years of fantastic management) to our current problems.

That's why people are upset, because we've shown we can do it. I don't understand why people can't accept that.

[ClaretMov]

Sunderland were going to take him until Dick Advocaat did a U-turn.

The Academy is starting to produce better quality players but it was always going to take time.

Any proof about Sunderland ????, also what I said is Dyche won't play or try youth even if our academy produced any and to date it hasn't