Manager or head coach?

[aggi]

So, what will we be going for, what would people prefer?

I could see us going down the Director of football and had coach route.

Obviously Dyche has worked miracles as a manager but it's a risky proposition if it doesn't work out. I think ALK may also want more control on the types of signing (and sales) and splitting that out may work better for them.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

European managers tend to be more open to having a director of football, whereas English managers aren't.

Screenshot_20220502-141614~2.png (102.69 KiB) Viewed 3184 times

Kompany has someone above him to oversee things like the transfers etc, he's just tasked with making it work with the players he's given.

If the right appointment is made then it could work having a similar system, so long as we don't end up with Everton's transfer strategy from these last few years

[RVclaret]

European managers tend to be more open to having a director of football, whereas English managers aren't.
Screenshot_20220502-141614~2.png

Kompany has someone above him to oversee things like the transfers etc, he's just tasked with making it work with the players he's given.

If the right appointment is made then it could work having a similar system, so long as we don't end up with Everton's transfer strategy from these last few years

It’s a good point - Knutsen also works at Bodo Glimt with a DoF. This is probably why Pace likes them both, aside from the success on the pitch.

[bobinho]

I think the days of having one man in charge with complete autonomy are over.

I'll be happy with a very experienced (but forward thinking and progressive) director of football with a fresh young head coach. If ALK want to be involved in the acquisition of players, if Wout, Max, Nathan, Wayne and Connor are their choices, they can continue for me.

[Roosterbooster]

I think many years ago, there was less to think about. So an all controlling manager was probably fine. Recently, it's probably become too much to do so for most people. There will be exceptions. And maybe Dyche was one. But sharing the burden, as long as its done properly, can only be a good thing.

I think any DoF has to work very, very closely with the manager/head coach, almost like a double act, with a well aligned philosophy. Otherwise I can see problems.

[ClaretTony]

So, what will we be going for, what would people prefer?

I could see us going down the Director of football and had coach route.

Obviously Dyche has worked miracles as a manager but it's a risky proposition if it doesn't work out. I think ALK may also want more control on the types of signing (and sales) and splitting that out may work better for them.

I think Dyche has been more a head coach in more recent years.

But if you want owners having more control on the types of signings it’s worth looking at the club we beat two days ago. That’s how they operate and Hodgson has described them as the most shambolic club he’s ever worked at.

[IanMcL]

Owners just do deals amongst themselves, for self glory and favours! We need a coherent plan.

[elwaclaret]

I think Dyche has been more a head coach in more recent years.

But if you want owners having more control on the types of signings it’s worth looking at the club we beat two days ago. That’s how they operate and Hodgson has described them as the most shambolic club he’s ever worked at.

I agree great care must be taken to make sure decisions are joined up. There is no point bringing in players that all parties are not agreed on. On he other hand if done properly it could work. I seem to remember Burnley had Harry Potts as General Manager for a while guiding Brian Miller when he first stepped up. Something like that could work, but getting the relationship right is vital.

One worrying prospect of the new stat driven approach is you don’t get stats as a defender for blocking space to opponents that subsequently don’t get the ball, only when they tackle/block. A defender constantly out of position can look a top player because of their power of recovery (which shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place).

[Tricky Trevor]

Could some of the horror stories from bygone days of managers getting transfer cuts for buying and selling players have led to owners being more wary of the manager having total control?

[Chester Perry]

One worrying prospect of the new stat driven approach is you don’t get stats as a defender for blocking space to opponents that subsequently don’t get the ball, only when they tackle/block. A defender constantly out of position can look a top player because of their power of recovery (which shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place).

that is why all Premier League clubs have analysts that create their own data points and models - rather than just rely on the generic applications that we see trotted out in the media

[aggi]

I think Dyche has been more a head coach in more recent years.

But if you want owners having more control on the types of signings it’s worth looking at the club we beat two days ago. That’s how they operate and Hodgson has described them as the most shambolic club he’s ever worked at.

It's a funny one is Watford. As much as they do appear shambolic they have done pretty well with continued appearances in the premier league and success when they go down without spending a huge deal of money (their wage bill isn't too different to ours).

It's not a model I'd like us to have but it's easy to write it off as terrible without considering how well it's worked.

You could equally look at Everton as an example where they keep bringing in new managers with new styles of play and new signings and spending huge amounts on failure.

[Blakesboots]

Owners just do deals amongst themselves, for self glory and favours! We need a coherent plan.

Seriously?

If you’d have said players, maybe.

[ClaretTony]

I seem to remember Burnley had Harry Potts as General Manager for a while guiding Brian Miller when he first stepped up.

Potts was general manager when Adamson took over but he was totally ignored and really had no job. Brian Miller replaced Potts as manager who immediately left the club.

[ClaretTony]

It's a funny one is Watford. As much as they do appear shambolic they have done pretty well with continued appearances in the premier league and success when they go down without spending a huge deal of money (their wage bill isn't too different to ours).

It's not a model I'd like us to have but it's easy to write it off as terrible without considering how well it's worked.

You could equally look at Everton as an example where they keep bringing in new managers with new styles of play and new signings and spending huge amounts on failure.

I think the difference being that at Watford the head coach has no say. Many of the signings are from Udinese. I think the Watford fans have had enough of it now. They did have a run of five successive seasons in the Premier League but they even sacked one boss immediately after he'd won promotion.

[bobinho]

Watford’s use of ex-udinese players is quite unique though isn’t it? I can’t think of anyone else that uses this model.

I don’t think we could use Watford as an example of how to bring players in. I think the idea of a group of people being involved in the process is sound, but not using one particular feeder club over any others.

Our last five signings look to have brought something to the “group” don’t they? I’d say they have been good signings.

[ClaretTony]

Watford’s use of ex-udinese players is quite unique though isn’t it? I can’t think of anyone else that uses this model.

I don’t think we could use Watford as an example of how to bring players in. I think the idea of a group of people being involved in the process is sound, but not using one particular feeder club over any others.

Our last five signings look to have brought something to the “group” don’t they? I’d say they have been good signings.

The point I'm trying to make is a club making signings without input from whoever is picking the team and deciding upon how the team sets up. I remember Spurs signing a player (I think it might have been Michael Brown from Sheffield United) and whoever was manager saying he wouldn't be playing him because he didn't want him. Around the time they had Arnesen, Santini and Jol.

[Claretitus]

[quote=bobinho post_id=<a href="tel:1803696">1803696</a> time=<a href="tel:1651507253">1651507253</a> user_id=1142]
Watford’s use of ex-udinese players is quite unique though isn’t it? I can’t think of anyone else that uses this model.

I don’t think we could use Watford as an example of how to bring players in. I think the idea of a group of people being involved in the process is sound, but not using one particular feeder club over any others.

Our last five signings look to have brought something to the “group” don’t they? I’d say they have been good signings.

The point I'm trying to make is a club making signings without input from whoever is picking the team and deciding upon how the team sets up. I remember Spurs signing a player (I think it might have been Michael Brown from Sheffield United) and whoever was manager saying he wouldn't be playing him because he didn't want him. Around the time they had Arnesen, Santini and Jol.
[/quote]

Same when Sherwood was at Villa. Signings were made, he was told to coach them. It’s all well and good but if a director of football spends big money on a player, and him and the manager don’t get on from day 1, then what? That’s why managers, especially Dyche for us, had “ his “ type of player, did his homework on them, and most signings worked out. JMHO.

[ClaretTony]

That’s why managers, especially Dyche for us, had “ his “ type of player, did his homework on them, and most signings worked out. JMHO.

Until maybe when they were picked for him.

[Claretitus]

Until maybe when they were picked for him.

Absolutely Tony.

[SouthLondonexile]

I’m hoping that common sense will prevail and we have a collaborative management team, comprised of a good manager and coaches who can bring fresh ideas and bring out the best in our team.
I would really like to have Vincent Kompany as manager with Jackson and Mee as coaches.

[boatshed bill]

The one thing I dislike about autonomous managers is that they bring all their coaching staff with them.
i know it may be difficult, but I'd prefer the club to have control over the coaching staff who get appointed.

[KRBFC]

The problem with Dyche was a different approach in the market was needed and he didn't have the knowledge or contacts to change it. A club like ours can't keep frittering money away on players like Rodriguez and Vydra with no resale value, we have to get back to being a selling club, profiting from the market.

I was surprised ALK gave Dyche a new deal, I just didn't see him being the long term solution to their vision. It's important for a coach to improve players not just for performances on field but for example, Dwight Mcneil's value under Dyche was absolutely plummeting game by game.

[Nonayforever]

For me it has to be a manager.
A DoF will always have a conflict of interest when the owner is close to the club.
When you have a club like Chelsea or Man City the owner(s) will have zero interest in who's playing this week or next, however a smaller club like ourselves, the owner has a vested interest in each and every player.
Choose a manager and give him a set of parameters to work within.

[Chester Perry]

For me it has to be a manager.
A DoF will always have a conflict of interest when the owner is close to the club.
When you have a club like Chelsea or Man City the owner(s) will have zero interest in who's playing this week or next, however a smaller club like ourselves, the owner has a vested interest in each and every player.
Choose a manager and give him a set of parameters to work within.

I have deep respect for the sentiment - but at this level even for a club like ours - Dyche may prove to be the last pf that type

[claretspice]

I don't think this is a binary choice these days. I think most clubs have managed to find a happy medium whereby the head coach or first team manager is clearly in charge of first team affairs, but someone else takes responsibility for the wider set up at the club (youth system etc.) and is charged with ensuring that the first team manager appointed is someone compatible with the established ethos at the club in order to ensure consistency - and with ensuring that the manager sticks within those principles. They usually deal with contract negotiation etc. too. It's not an all powerful director of football - it's someone from a football background but who also has the business skills to deal with that side of the job, and who can quietly take a more long term, strategic view.

Given that most managers last for 3 years or less, that makes sense. Even at Burnley, where we've generally made a virtue out of giving managers longer and giving them more authority, it's possible to identify points in time where we'd have benefitted from having an alternative centre of gravity, e.g. when Coyle was able to take the entire coaching staff to Bolton, or when Eddie Howe was allowed to dismantle the youth set up to no discernible benefit. In relation to Dyche, it's an open secret that over the past 4-5 years Dyche has coveted other roles having felt he'd reached a glass ceiling at Burnley (rightly and understandably). Inevitably, and again without any criticism of Dyche, that creates a conflict between Dyche's interests (keep Burnley competitive for long enough to secure that job) and the football clubs (build something sustainable and longer term).

A Head of Football Operations or similar would have been responsible for ensuring that Dyche's interests didn't end up overriding those of the football club or leading to stalemate (I'm not saying that they did, just that it's possible, and it's certainly a plausible hypothesis to what has happened in the years since we finished 7th). They'd now be responsible for picking someone who can work with the players Dyche leaves behind, and for managing contract negotiations with Mee et al in the absence of a manager (apart from anything more practical, those players need to know that the next manager will want them, and the HFO provides that continuity/assurance).

To my mind, it's a critical role at a club like Burnley, which can ill afford the shock that goes with massive turnover of players/radical changes in approach. We need everyone pulling in the same direction, and that probably needs someone with the skill set behind the scenes to orchestrate. It's not the Watford model (that's a false parallel), and it only limits the autonomy of the manager to a limited extent - to avoid them becoming all powerful to the detriment of the club.

[randomclaret2]

I don't think this is a binary choice these days. I think most clubs have managed to find a happy medium whereby the head coach or first team manager is clearly in charge of first team affairs, but someone else takes responsibility for the wider set up at the club (youth system etc.) and is charged with ensuring that the first team manager appointed is someone compatible with the established ethos at the club in order to ensure consistency - and with ensuring that the manager sticks within those principles. They usually deal with contract negotiation etc. too. It's not an all powerful director of football - it's someone from a football background but who also has the business skills to deal with that side of the job, and who can quietly take a more long term, strategic view.

Given that most managers last for 3 years or less, that makes sense. Even at Burnley, where we've generally made a virtue out of giving managers longer and giving them more authority, it's possible to identify points in time where we'd have benefitted from having an alternative centre of gravity, e.g. when Coyle was able to take the entire coaching staff to Bolton, or when Eddie Howe was allowed to dismantle the youth set up to know discernible benefit. In relation to Dyche, it's an open secret that over the past 4-5 years Dyche has coveted other roles having felt he'd reached a glass ceiling at Burnley (rightly and understandably). Inevitably, and again without any criticism of Dyche, that creates a conflict between Dyche's interests (keep Burnley competitive for long enough to secure that job) and the football clubs (build something sustainable and longer term.

A Head of Football Operations or similar would have been responsible for ensuring that Dyche's interests didn't end up overriding those of the football club or leading to stalemate (I'm not saying that they did, just that it's possible, and it's certainly a plausible hypothesis to what has happened in the years since we finished 7th). They'd now be responsible for picking someone who can work with the players Dyche leaves behind, and for managing contract negotiations with Mee et al in the absence of a manager (apart from anything more practical, those players need to know that the next manager will want them, and the HFO provides that continuity/assurance).

To my mind, it's a critical role at a club like Burnley, which can ill afford the shock that goes with massive turnover of players/radical changes in approach. We need everyone pulling in the same direction, and that probably needs someone with the skill set behind the scenes to orchestrate. It's not the Watford model (that's a false parallel), and it only limits the autonomy of the manager to a limited extent - to avoid them becoming all powerful to the detriment of the club.

Perhaps Mr Pace sees himself as Head of Football Operations...

[Herts Clarets]

Until maybe when they were picked for him.

Are you talking players that were signed or players that were picked for the team? Clearly you know something of what happened behind the scenes from your comments on Dale Stephens. Were there more and who was it that was selecting these players? MG which would explain the breakdown in relations between him and Dyche.

[Lancasterclaret]

Perhaps Mr Pace sees himself as Head of Football Operations...

And if he does, then he does

[claretspice]

If he does, he does, but it'd be a bad sign. The best executives know the limits of their knowledge and bring in experts to deal with stuff in their field of expertise, and empower them - whilst holding them accountable and ensuring that they operate within the highest level parameters of the club as a business (i.e. financial).

[Lancasterclaret]

If he does, he does, but it'd be a bad sign. The best executives know the limits of their knowledge and bring in experts to deal with stuff in their field of expertise, and empower them - whilst holding them accountable and ensuring that they operate within the highest level parameters of the club as a business (i.e. financial).

Not disagreeing Spice, but I don't think the players who have come in this season have come in because of Dyche, and I think Pace has played a large part in getting them in

I'd rather he didn't do it, but he does appear to be able to get deals over the line, and I think that is something (with a known manager and a good D of F) would be very useful going forward

[RVclaret]

All this talk of Pace doing deals that didn’t Dyche didn’t agree to or whatever.

Collins - Dyche wanted him before Pace arrived

Roberts - £2m for 25 year old international full back from Championship, British, looks like a Dyche signing to me

Cornet - ok I think this one is perhaps the one people might look at and say, that wasn’t a Dyche signing - but from reports, Pace had tried to bring in Dyche’s main winger targets in Albrighton and Young, who both got close but opted against the move late on

Hennessey - again, back up keeper, international, improvement on the previous seasons back up

Weghorst - perhaps a different type of striker to Wood but the sale of Wood was totally unexpected, there weren’t many strikers available, here’s a player with a 1 in 2 record in a top league and Netherlands international, hard worker, tall - with little time in the Window to mess around, seems to me like Pace did the best he could to get a Dyche kind of striker in

So, I just get a bit confused with the ‘Dyche had signings made for him’ comments from the likes of CT when to me, it doesn’t really look that way. And all of the above have turned out to be good signings too IMO.

[spt_claret]

All this talk of Pace doing deals that didn’t Dyche didn’t agree to or whatever.

Collins - Dyche wanted him before Pace arrived

Roberts - £2m for 25 year old international full back from Championship, British, looks like a Dyche signing to me

Cornet - ok I think this one is perhaps the one people might look at and say, that wasn’t a Dyche signing - but from reports, Pace had tried to bring in Dyche’s main winger targets in Albrighton and Young, who both got close but opted against the move late on

Hennessey - again, back up keeper, international, improvement on the previous seasons back up

Weghorst - perhaps a different type of striker to Wood but the sale of Wood was totally unexpected, there weren’t many strikers available, here’s a player with a 1 in 2 record in a top league and Netherlands international, hard worker, tall - with little time in the Window to mess around, seems to me like Pace did the best he could to get a Dyche kind of striker in

So, I just get a bit confused with the ‘Dyche had signings made for him’ comments from the likes of CT when to me, it doesn’t really look that way. And all of the above have turned out to be good signings too IMO.

Collins is news to me but unsurprising.

As for Roberts I'm not so sure on the Championship point. Reading between a few lines I suspect Stephens was picked by Garlick, and I certainly remember multiple stories/claims over the years that our fixation on the Championship was due to Garlick not trusting our overseas scouting/dealing, rather than a Dyche preference. I'm not convinced that he was a Dyche choice, although he represented a promising deal. Dyche made no secret he's wanted to reunite with Trippier,I would imagine he was far and away the preference but for various reasons (mostly financial) that was a nonstarter.

Your Corner points are interesting. I had Marc Albrighton as a dream signing under Dyche since we got into Europe, the moment has probably passed now but I think he would have been exactly what we needed on the flanks for the past 3 seasons and fit like a glove into our system. Pity it didn't come off, Cornet has far more resale value and probably more attacking intent but Albrighton would have been the perfect Dyche wideman. A rich man's George Boyd.

Weghorst I've said before and say again- I fully believe he was a Dyche target but not envisioned as a Wood replacement, but Jay replacement. In fact wouldn't surprise me if Dyche wanted him when we signed Jay and it was a Garlick call because of overseas signing reservations, or budget. Much as I love Jay his return has always felt to have more than a dash of sentimentality about it. Weghorst clearly was never a straight swap for Wood and Dyche didn't play him as such he pushed Jay into that role instead. There was a very brief rumoured link with Haris Seferovic in January and I can believe it, style wise he's much more a Wood replacement.

I'm not leaping on the wagon that Pace, Garlick or whoever made signings above Dyche's head as I don't know, but my gut tells me that since at least summer 2020, likely 2019, there's been a lot of compromises and settling for backup choices/square pegs in round holes, or taking identified players when available even if it doesn't line up with when we've wanted them or needed their role. Going forward we will need to not just get the right players in but at the right time to integrate into the team, if the manager doesn't have much say on who or when then that is going to be a tough job.

[Herts Clarets]

Could a couple of the loan signings have been the players who it is claimed Dyche didn't sign? Drinkwater in particular is one that springs to mind. Certainly Tony has suggested that Stephens was not a Dyche signing.

[Mala591]

Surely the Club Chairman and Team Manager (Head Coach) have to have a detailed AND 100% AGREED list of potential signings? How can it work successfully any other way?

[Chester Perry]

Perhaps Mr Pace sees himself as Head of Football Operations...

We do have a Director responsible for Football Operations - not Pace - Mike Smith steeped with years of knowledge (just not in football) and he has been in the roll since VSL first arrived - this athletic article from last November gives some insight (link takes you to an archive to circumvent the paywall

Mike Smith: Finding the next Cornet, delivering for Dyche and building the new Burnley

https://archive.ph/F4HDL

[DAVETHEVICAR]

Hope it is manager
DOF May chose players Coach doesn’t want
Awful idea imo

[spt_claret]

We do have a Director responsible for Football Operations - not Pace - Mike Smith steeped with years of knowledge (just not in football) and he has been in the roll since VSL first arrived - this athletic article from last November gives some insight (link takes you to an archive to circumvent the paywall

Mike Smith: Finding the next Cornet, delivering for Dyche and building the new Burnley

https://archive.ph/F4HDL

Interesting. His role seems much more a project manager balancing what the manager/his staff want, what the board want, what the analytics team recommend based on the above and then making the decision himself or with the chairman. Not a hugely personally active role but you probably wouldn't want that from someone with no footballing or analytical background.

The academy oversight is interesting too. Suggests that giving academy players minutes is going to be more of a priority- which is fine if they're actually good enough but if not it's not going to work. Don't know a thing about Jenkins but the article alludes to a connection with ALK- who is he exactly and what's his background that makes him suited to running the academy?

[Chester Perry]

Interesting. His role seems much more a project manager balancing what the manager/his staff want, what the board want, what the analytics team recommend based on the above and then making the decision himself or with the chairman. Not a hugely personally active role but you probably wouldn't want that from someone with no footballing or analytical background.

The academy oversight is interesting too. Suggests that giving academy players minutes is going to be more of a priority- which is fine if they're actually good enough but if not it's not going to work. Don't know a thing about Jenkins but the article alludes to a connection with ALK- who is he exactly and what's his background that makes him suited to running the academy?

Jenkins has a long history in the game mainly at Middlesbrough

[Long Time Lurker]

Don't know a thing about Jenkins but the article alludes to a connection with ALK- who is he exactly and what's his background that makes him suited to running the academy?

History - Paul Jenkins

Paul Jenkins was a youth coach at Middlesbrough for more than 20 years. By all accounts he was a well regarded youth coach. He progressed through every level of the youth set up during that time, eventually managing the U21 squad. In 66 matches as their U21 manager he achieved 25 wins, 13 draws and 28 losses with a point per game average of 1.33. He predominantly played a 4-2-3-1 formation. In 2015 the squad won the Barclays Premier League Second Division Title and the North Riding Senior Cup.

However, during all of that time he failed to convince the Middlesbrough hierarchy that his future involved permanent first team coaching duties and his only spell with the first team occurred near the end of his time with Middlesbrough. The departure of Aitor Karank in the 2016/17 season saw the appointment of Steve Agnew as the Middlesbrough interim head coach. This change led to Jenkins joining the first team coaching staff.

Steve Agnew remained in charge for the final 11 games of their season and under his management Middlesbrough notched up 1 win, 3 draws and 7 losses. It was enough to seal their relegation to the Championship. Jenkins was expected to go back to his U23 duties, with the arrival of Gary Monk as the new Middlesbrough head coach. Somewhat surprisingly, that didn't happen and he left the club by mutual consent in June of 2017 as part of an academy shake up.

In July of 2017 Craig Harrison, the new manager of Hartlepool, offered Jenkins the job of Assistant Manager. Jenkins previously coached Harrison during his time at Middlesbrough. This partnership lasted until February of 2018 and ended with the departure of Harrison. During those nine months the two of them oversaw 34 matches achieving a record of 9 wins, 10 draws and 15 losses which accounted for a point per game average of 1.03. Hartlepool operated in a 4-2-3-1 formation for almost all of those matches.

After Harrison was released the Hartlepool board bypassed Jenkins and appointed Matthew Bates, their U23 coach, as an interim manager. Jenkins was expected to work with Bates, but he excused himself from the club due to family reasons and he never returned.

In November 2018, citing a desire to take a step back from professional football, Jenkins accepted a position coaching secondary school students at the football academy of Kepier School in Houghton Le Spring.

Sometime around the middle of 2020 Jenkins came into contact with ALK, who had recently missed out on investing in Sheffield United. He started to advise them on football related matters relating to the UK. In January of 2021 he was offered an initial role as a Technical Advisor at Burnley.

ALK chose to dispense with the services of Jon Pepper in September of 2021. This created a vacancy for a new Heady of Academy, and Jenkins stepped into the role.

Outside of football Jenkins has claimed to be the owner of a restaurant with a Michelin star and an AA Rosette. In partnership with his father Bernie, Jenkins was previously associated with four hospitality establishments. These included Liberty's in Town restaurant and the Central pub which were both in Middlesbrough, The Normanby Bed and Breakfast and finally Chadwicks Inn at Maltby.

I couldn't find evidence of any of those establishments receiving a Michelin star during their association with members of the Jenkins family. The regular attribution of the AA Rosettes are well documented. However, the Chadwicks Inn at Maltby did receive a " Bib Gourmand " in the Michelin Guide for the first time in September 2015. This isn't a Michelin Star, but it is a prestigious award for offering exceptionally good food at moderate prices. Chadwicks Inn has gone on to receive the same award a further five times, but these awards don't appear to have anything to do with the Jenkins family.

The Jenkins family filed their last set of accounts as owners of Chadwicks Inn during April 2012 and their interests were formally dissolved during November of 2015. Their active interest in Liberty's in Town suffered the same fate in 2016 and Bernie Jenkins resigned from Bar Central Limited in the same year.

On the upside Bernie Jenkins took over The Green Tree in 2017 with the assistance of his step son Tom and despite the difficulties associated with Covid is doing well.

So that is it. A very brief account of the football and other business endeavours associated with Paul Jenkins. Given that his 20+ years experience at Middlesbrough was centred upon youth coaching and his subsequent first team involvement has been very minor I can't help but feel that he is something of a downgrade from Jon Pepper - given the excellent work that he did progressing our Academy.