Alan….? Alan….? Are you there, Alan?

[Sleeping Cat]

Just like previous burnley chairmen.....

The difference being that Pace made a rod for his own back by announcing when he came in that he would be actively engaging with fans on social media etc etc

[dsr]

The Daily Mail article linked earlier in this thread says that "ALK may be forced to use the assets of their American media and technology companies to secure another loan", so perhaps Burnley FC isn't their only asset.

Possible. But as it stands, ALK has liabilities of at least £160m in respect of BFC, and I strongly suspect they have not put the rest of their assets at risk to support it. The corporate structure will have BFC ringfenced.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I would like to know what has happened to MJ
I would like to know why the club did not have two financial plans already in existence ( assuming that he is only just working on it as you say )
I would like to know what he hopes to achieve by appealing to PL
Let’s start with those 3

MJ - the season has just ended, his position could be decided by the new manager who could want him to remain with the first team, or by the club itself who could want him to drop back down to youth level, now isn't the time to make any announcements.

Finances - they always made it very clear that relegation wasn't the end of the world, why are you assuming they've had no plans for various scenarios?
Why should the fans be told the details?

Everton - they took the ****, we all know they took the **** and the PL are bending over backwards to ensure Everton fall within the FFP regs.
That isn't right by any measure, especially with their suggestion that Covid prevented them selling their very overpaid and over rated players.

Was there a drop in spending by clubs?
Yes, that's not being disputed but 17 out of 20 clubs spent more then they sold in one of the Covid windows from what I've read, Everton being amongst them and their claims exceed other clubs of a similar size.

[Nori1958]

The difference being that Pace made a rod for his own back by announcing when he came in that he would be actively engaging with fans on social media etc etc

Having seen the idiotic replies he got from a large percentage of fans, he probably decided that was a bad decision

[GodIsADeeJay81]

In my opinion ( which is worthless) ALK gambled on not being relegated and lost As DSR says ALK are actually Bankrupt

Yet every interview at the time Pace stated relegation wasn't going to be a major issue as and when it happened.
They knew it could happen, they were prepared for it.

[dsr]

You are assuming ALK and Pace want to completely destroy Burnley FC, completely and utterly ruin their reputations in the industry and never be able to continue with their ultimate goal of owning more clubs. As well as lose out on whatever funds they have put up themselves, which could be a fair whack of their own net wealth.

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm simply saying that they have nothing financially to lose by gambling on a return to the PL and a good deal financially to gain. I have no clue what their less tangible motivations are, but as an investment company, I wouldn't be surprised if money comes first.

The funds they have put up themselves are already valued at nothing. There is no way they can sell BFC, as it stands, for the same amount and more as what they paid.

[Chester Perry]

The Daily Mail article linked earlier in this thread says that "ALK may be forced to use the assets of their American media and technology companies to secure another loan", so perhaps Burnley FC isn't their only asset.

We know nothing of their US based investments (if indeed they have any - one thing for sure is they have never mentioned any such investments other than Player Lens and AiScout - as for those this is where their investment stands

Player Lens Limited (No. 08898270) of which a confirmation statement dated February 17, 2020, and filed two days later states that ALK Capital LLC owns 25 ordinary shares out of a total allotment of 6744. A February 2022 statement shows no change to these figures;

Project 23rd Century Limited (No 10911841) which owns AiScout, of which a confirmation statement dated August 10, 2020 and filed on October 8, 2020, states that ALK Capital (the date means it has to be the LLC though it is not stated) holds 7816 Class B (non-voting) shares out of 556,508 such shares, with 1,333,334 Class A (voting) shares also in distribution at that time. New allotments as a result of 7 different share sales since July 2021 for in excess of £2.5m show there are now 1,185,451 Class B shares with no change to the Class A figure. A confirmation statement dated April 12 2022 states ALK Capital now hold 46,895 Class B shares.

[RVclaret]

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm simply saying that they have nothing financially to lose by gambling on a return to the PL and a good deal financially to gain. I have no clue what their less tangible motivations are, but as an investment company, I wouldn't be surprised if money comes first.

The funds they have put up themselves are already valued at nothing. There is no way they can sell BFC, as it stands, for the same amount and more as what they paid.

Well, Sheff Utd are speculated to being bought for 110m, circa 40% less than what ALK are believed to have paid for us. If ALK put in, say 20m of their own funding, their funds would be worth 12m ish, assuming they could sell the club at a similar price to Sheff Utd - but in essence, their funds are not already valued at nothing.

[Chester Perry]

Well, Sheff Utd are speculated to being bought for 110m, circa 40% less than what ALK are believed to have paid for us. If ALK put in, say 20m of their own funding, their funds would be worth 12m ish, assuming they could sell the club at a similar price to Sheff Utd - but in essence, their funds are not already valued at nothing.

That price was mentioned earlier this year includes a premium for the outstanding Parachute payments, we know that the current ownership paid in excess of £50m for the properties of the club (training ground, Stadium, Hotel etc) after the court case over ownership (a different outcome there and VSL would be owning that club)

There is also the crucial factor that no one has yet paid that price.

[Chester Perry]

The corporate structure will have BFC ringfenced.

It certainly appears that way - from Kettering Capital down through Calder Vale - all of it onshore - VSL the 'ultimate parent' is in Jersey

[dsr]

Well, Sheff Utd are speculated to being bought for 110m, circa 40% less than what ALK are believed to have paid for us. If ALK put in, say 20m of their own funding, their funds would be worth 12m ish, assuming they could sell the club at a similar price to Sheff Utd - but in essence, their funds are not already valued at nothing.

It doesn't work that way. The investors have to pay off the loans first before they can pocket the profit. The first £160m or so has to be paid to BFC (£112m) and the former shareholders; ALK get what's left. If anything.

[Indecisive]

If I was Alan I’d probably be looking at a new management as a priority and the announcement being the positive starting point for a discussion of the impact of relegation.

[Lancasterclaret]

If I was Alan I’d probably be looking at a new management as a priority and the announcement being the positive starting point for a discussion of the impact of relegation.

I'm not saying anything too iffy, but if you are asked questions about the finances when you've just unveiled one of the best defenders of the decade as your new manager, then its going to be much easier to brush them off than if you hadn't

I remain concerned, but not in the short term

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Maybe we just all long for those days like under Garlick and Teasdale where they offered that constant communication. Who can ever forget ‘Frank’s hour’!

[Indecisive]

The way he bought the club is never going to be palatable to the majority of us. These leveraged buyouts are just not right.. they shouldn’t be legal. However…. they are.

People want him to address our concerns… he can’t. He’s took a gamble like many do in business. The nature of this type of deal means the upsides are huge and if it goes wrong, he may be able to disappear without major personal financial implications.

However, my understanding is, for it to work out for him positively, he NEEDS the club to succeed. He can’t milk us dry in the championship, disappear with a bulging bank account, and leave us to disappear into the ether..: or could he?

I envisage a real stab at promotion this year. Presumably he’s two years max, and after that it really does crumble?

[Newcastleclaret93]

The way he bought the club is never going to be palatable to the majority of us. These leveraged buyouts are just not right.. they shouldn’t be legal. However…. they are.

People want him to address our concerns… he can’t. He’s took a gamble like many do in business. The nature of this type of deal means the upsides are huge and if it goes wrong, he may be able to disappear without major personal financial implications.

However, my understanding is, for it to work out for him positively, he NEEDS the club to succeed. He can’t milk us dry in the championship, disappear with a bulging bank account, and leave us to disappear into the ether..: or could he?

I envisage a real stab at promotion this year. Presumably he’s two years max, and after that it really does crumble?

Yep this is pretty much how I see it. Will bet the ranch to try get promoted.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yep this is pretty much how I see it. Will bet the ranch to try get promoted.

Bet the ranch to get promoted
Pretty sure the club's done that before and it succeeded with Kilby & Coyle.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Bet the ranch to get promoted
Pretty sure the club's done that before and it succeeded with Kilby & Coyle.

I don’t get what your point is? Are you saying that taking more loans out isn’t betting the ranch?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I don’t get what your point is? Are you saying that taking more loans out isn’t betting the ranch?

No, just saying we've had to bet the ranch before because I'm pretty sure if the club hadn't gone up that year with Coyle it was going to be in real trouble.

[FeedTheArf]

No, just saying we've had to bet the ranch before because I'm pretty sure if the club hadn't gone up that year with Coyle it was going to be in real trouble.

It would have been in serious trouble. The difference with the Championship between then and now is that there are probably 15 clubs 'betting the ranch' to get promotion. Before you only had to worry about the recently relegated clubs. Most now have owners who will happily pay 200% wages to turnover ratio. Someone put a graph up a few weeks ago that showed a scary amount of clubs are 150% turnover/expenditure.

You've got to bet the ranch just to compete.

[Chester Perry]

No, just saying we've had to bet the ranch before because I'm pretty sure if the club hadn't gone up that year with Coyle it was going to be in real trouble.

If you look at the sums involved and the relative wealth of the directors at the time they could have probably carried it with a lot of belt tightening and player sales - which in essence is no different to now with the known revenue (to the club at least) from Parachute Payments (as opposed to director wealth) - which is guaranteed income.

Now we have bigger debts and for a defined period a bigger income stream, this season we will have been operationally cash positive (before cash extractions from related parties) and would have likely been able to post profits - relegation helps that snapshot as a result of not paying circa £12m+ in bonuses to football staff or conditional elements on transfer fees that relied on retaining PL status. The level of profitability this season will be determined by how the 'disposal' (to use an accounting phrase, possibly incorrectly) of the manager and his staff is accounted for.

[Blakesboots]

The difference being that Pace made a rod for his own back by announcing when he came in that he would be actively engaging with fans on social media etc etc

I’m Spartacus

[KRBFC]

they are arguing the transfer market depreciated - CIty just paid 150 million for Haaland, there's the proof it hasn't depreciated !!

I thought it was 65 million euros, release fee?

[Quickenthetempo]

I thought it was 65 million euros, release fee?

It was.

The 150m might be his monthly wage though.

[RVclaret]

It was.

The 150m might be his monthly wage though.

150m a month? Eh?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It was.

The 150m might be his monthly wage though.

The overall cost of the signing, including wages etc is reputed to be close to £250 Million.

Trevor Sinclair, the city fanboy on talksport, got the right arse on because the media don't tend to mention overall cost of signing players when talking about other clubs, just about City in this instance and he wants it to stop

[Quickenthetempo]

150m a month? Eh?

It was a joke.

[claretandy]

I thought it was 65 million euros, release fee?

Yeah, but how much did his agents get ?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yeah, but how much did his agents get ?

£20-30 million depending on what you read, split between his dad and the man who took over from Raiola after he died.

[Quickenthetempo]

The overall cost of the signing, including wages etc is reputed to be close to £250 Million.

Trevor Sinclair, the city fanboy on talksport, got the right arse on because the media don't tend to mention overall cost of signing players when talking about other clubs, just about City in this instance and he wants it to stop

The media do try and paint City as the the big money spenders and Liverpool as the paupers that get by on free transfers.

Most people know both spend ridiculous amounts.

[aggi]

The overall cost of the signing, including wages etc is reputed to be close to £250 Million.

Trevor Sinclair, the city fanboy on talksport, got the right arse on because the media don't tend to mention overall cost of signing players when talking about other clubs, just about City in this instance and he wants it to stop

It's a fair point. No one describes Dale Stephens as a £7.5m signing.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's a fair point. No one describes Dale Stephens as a £7.5m signing.

I believe someone on this forum does try to include the wages of players like Stephens when having a rant about him.

[RMutt]

The sums of money we casually throw around in these discussions are incredible aren’t they? Completely divorced from the same sums in the everyday walk of life.