Clubs that “deserve to be” in a certain league

Foshiznik · Post by **Foshiznik** » Mon May 30, 2022 1:52 pm

Anyone else sick of hearing every bandwagon plastic fan telling us how Forest deserve to be in the Premier League, not based on the results but just on the size of the club. Had enough of it for Leeds, but it’s going to be a long season before one of them comes back down next season…

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Mon May 30, 2022 1:55 pm

The Premier league is soooo yesterday.The championship is the place to be..

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:04 pm

It’s pathetic all this size of the club stuff - at the end of the day every club is where it deserves to be.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:08 pm

A lot of people do not see football as a sport - they see it as going to the Theatre, Concert etc. Worthiness built on audience figures and size of the theatre. Absolute tosh, if Accy Stanley win the required games, they deserve to be in the top league. Club size should have no place in any argument involving sport.

jollyjack · Post by **jollyjack** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:11 pm

Easy,

Just go to the latest Govt Census report, place the clubs in order of their town population and place in league. No need for all this football at all...

Sheedyclaret · Post by **Sheedyclaret** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:12 pm

Playoff final coverage was so bias they may aswell have jyst given forest the trophy...

dandeclaret · Post by **dandeclaret** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:12 pm

League position is a clear assessment of how well a club is performing in it's decision making at all levels. I'd love to see one that's based on resources available to those clubs - it would really highlight just how good some clubs are at decision making, and how terrible some are and continue to be. I reckon Rochdale would be about the flattest line of "where they should be", whilst Swansea, Fulham, Burnley, Blackpool would be amongst the spikiest.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:17 pm

Yeah its the usual suspects that get told they deserve to be in the top flight.

Leeds, Bolton, Sunderland, Rovers, Sheffield clubs, Forest, Newcastle etc.

Probably why a lot of their fans have large egos about the supposed size of their clubs when the reality is very different.

If a club is outside of the PL, it's because that's where they deserve to be, but the media don't always see it like that.

taio · Post by **taio** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:23 pm

Yes, anti-competiiton nonsense. Which was also at the heart of forming of a breakaway Europen Super League or whatever is was to be called. Clubs are in the league they are in based on merit and performance. That's rightly the Championship for us next season.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:27 pm

I think there's a subtle difference around where you deserve to be and where a club maybe belongs and I can understand why some people think its good to see certain teams achieve success based of their size and history.

A good example is Burnley in 87 where we fully deserved to be where we were but most neutrals felt a club like Burnley with its history should be a league club and I think the FA and/or football league were even looking at whether they could bend the rules as they were so scared to lose a club like Burnley.

I would say the football league is better for having Burnley in it over Lincoln in the same way I would say the Premier League is better for having Forest in it than Huddersfield. That is obviously based on the fact that both Burnley and Forest earn the right to be there over the other two clubs in the first place

I think the other part of this is that a lot of it is just cliched football speak and for those who get annoyed and maybe even upset about it I say chill out and have a bit of perspective.

jollyjack · Post by **jollyjack** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:33 pm

Not sure Forest have a greater claim to PL status than Udders (apart from winning the final, of course). Udders have a history not many seem aware of (3 titles v Forest 1). Smaller clubs like us, Bournemouth, Watford bring down PL average attendances and international marketing figures and get in the way of the narrative of the PL being the pinnacle of Association /football. Was it Noel Gallagher who questioned what we were doing there a few years ago, saying he'd rather watch City v Leeds or Villa than Burnley or Bournemouoth?

Pickles · Post by **Pickles** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:36 pm

Foshiznik wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 1:52 pm
Anyone else sick of hearing every bandwagon plastic fan telling us how Forest deserve to be in the Premier League, not based on the results but just on the size of the club. Had enough of it for Leeds, but it’s going to be a long season before one of them comes back down next season…

Yep. Mainly peddled by telly-clappers but now spreading to fans of teams like Brighton (?!?!) and of course it's a given with Leeds fans. Forest fans recently too. Buckle up for next season. The Forest "narrative" will be loud. People have been brainwashed by SKY etc into believing a shiny stadium, a kit launch, and social media followers are what matters above all else. And if your team doesn't play the tippy tappy stuff then honestly, you might as well give up.

Petersa · Post by **Petersa** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:55 pm

Sky etc should perhaps be careful what they wish for.....e.g. Blackburn Rovers have won the PL more than West Ham, Forest, Leeds, Everton, Villa , Super Rich Newcastle etc combined. Do the aforementioned Blue and White halves thetefore belong in the PL forever?

Smile · Post by **Smile** » Mon May 30, 2022 2:58 pm

I've had this conversation a few times with friends. One is a Sheff Weds fan.

There is no universal benchmark/measurement to determine which club is bigger than the other. That's the bottom line. It's all down to opinions.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:01 pm

Smile wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:58 pm
I've had this conversation a few times with friends. One is a Sheff Weds fan.

There is no universal benchmark/measurement to determine which club is bigger than the other. That's the bottom line. It's all down to opinions.

You'd be hard pressed to assert that Rochdale were a bigger club than Man United so it's not entirely down to opinions.

Whether it's worthwhile is another matter. It's the kind of logic the breakaway clubs were using to justify setting up their failed Super League monstrosity.

aclaretinstevenage · Post by **aclaretinstevenage** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:02 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:04 pm
It’s pathetic all this size of the club stuff - at the end of the day every club is where it deserves to be.

Exactly this.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:07 pm

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:04 pm
It’s pathetic all this size of the club stuff - at the end of the day every club is where it deserves to be.

Except Leeds !!

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:09 pm

jollyjack wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:33 pm
Not sure Forest have a greater claim to PL status than Udders (apart from winning the final, of course). Udders have a history not many seem aware of (3 titles v Forest 1). Smaller clubs like us, Bournemouth, Watford bring down PL average attendances and international marketing figures and get in the way of the narrative of the PL being the pinnacle of Association /football. Was it Noel Gallagher who questioned what we were doing there a few years ago, saying he'd rather watch City v Leeds or Villa than Burnley or Bournemouoth?

I'd rather watch Bournemouth than Noel Gallagher to be honest.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:10 pm

Plenty of people will be happy that clubs like Leeds, Villa and Forest have all made it back to the top flight.

Smile · Post by **Smile** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:14 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 3:01 pm
You'd be hard-pressed to assert that Rochdale were a bigger club than Man United so it's not entirely down to opinions.

You'd have to be an extremely difficult person to get along with if you were discussing whether say Forest or Burnley were the bigger club and you came out with that.

It's down to opinions.

Juan Tanamera · Post by **Juan Tanamera** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:18 pm

I saw a thread on Facebook this morning about the play off final and one poster suggested Forest 'belong' in the Premier League more than a team like Brentford.
When I questioned the required criteria for 'belonging' he said that Forest have a larger fan base in which to generate more money.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:25 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 3:18 pm
I saw a thread on Facebook this morning about the play off final and one poster suggested Forest 'belong' in the Premier League more than a team like Brentford.
When I questioned the required criteria for 'belonging' he said that Forest have a larger fan base in which to generate more money.

Apart from Bournemouth & Brentford we had the lowest crowds in the Premier League. Did we deserve to be there for six years? Absolutely we did. Do we still deserve to be there? No we don’t and that’s how it should always be.

Tricky Trevor · Post by **Tricky Trevor** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:40 pm

Sheedyclaret wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:12 pm
Playoff final coverage was so bias they may aswell have jyst given forest the trophy...

Jon Moss did.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Mon May 30, 2022 3:55 pm

Wherever there is massive amounts of money involved there will always be corruption involved
Anybody who does not believe that is naive in the extreme

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Mon May 30, 2022 4:00 pm

FCBurnley wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 3:55 pm
Wherever there is massive amounts of money involved there will always be corruption involved
Anybody who does not believe that is naive in the extreme

*always* is the key word here and I'd have to disagree with you.

Corruption is by no means inevitable. There are massive variations in levels of corruption from country to country which goes to show that it can be tackled with the right culture and enforcement.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon May 30, 2022 4:07 pm

Juan Tanamera wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 3:18 pm
I saw a thread on Facebook this morning about the play off final and one poster suggested Forest 'belong' in the Premier League more than a team like Brentford.
When I questioned the required criteria for 'belonging' he said that Forest have a larger fan base in which to generate more money.

With the Sky TV deal, money from attendances is virtually irrelevant these days.

Didn't it make up just 6% of our revenue?

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Mon May 30, 2022 5:51 pm

Back in the day there used to be genuine excitement and well wishing if a "small club" did well and overachieved. Now with the sickening attitude of the new generation of fans(those that think football began in 1992) we have this entitlement/belief that only perceived big clubs should be allowed in the Premier League.
As Tony says...every club is exactly where it should based on exactly what it should be based on....On-field performance.

CaptJohn · Post by **CaptJohn** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm

Somethingfishy wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 5:51 pm
Back in the day there used to be genuine excitement and well wishing if a "small club" did well and overachieved. Now with the sickening attitude of the new generation of fans(those that think football began in 1992) we have this entitlement/belief that only perceived big clubs should be allowed in the Premier League.
As Tony says...every club is exactly where it should based on exactly what it should be based on....On-field performance.

I agree with those sentiments but unfortunately as we all know referees are only human and get influenced massively by the big clubs and their huge, vociferous, fan bases. Thus on field performances are distorted by decisions made by these officials to the detriment of the smaller clubs. A classic example recently was the penalty at Spurs. Would it have been given against a Spurs player on that day? I doubt it.
Sadly smaller, Premier league clubs sometimes have to play against 12 on field players IMHO.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:12 pm

CaptJohn wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 6:03 pm
I agree with those sentiments but unfortunately as we all know referees are only human and get influenced massively by the big clubs and their huge, vociferous, fan bases. Thus on field performances are distorted by decisions made by these officials to the detriment of the smaller clubs. A classic example recently was the penalty at Spurs. Would it have been given against a Spurs player on that day? I doubt it.
Sadly smaller, Premier league clubs sometimes have to play against 12 on field players IMHO.

Sadly i think it goes deeper than just referees having the big club bias. Mark Halseys comments make enlightening reading on the matter.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:13 pm

The footballing world would respect us more if we didn't spend our time stinking the place out, our own fans don't want to watch us hence the empty seats, our Sky viewing figures must be appalling and that's not because we don't have as many fans as the other teams, it's because the football we played was shite and boring.

Brentford are a tiny club compared to us yet nobody has mentioned it, nobody in the media, there's not a negative narrative surrounding Brentford, just positivity, people like watching them play. Hopefully this will change for us going forward and long gone are the days of football from the 1950s.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:15 pm

We aren't a tiny club, we just play like one. There's consequences for hoofball.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:22 pm

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 6:13 pm
The footballing world would respect us more if we didn't spend our time stinking the place out, our own fans don't want to watch us hence the empty seats, our Sky viewing figures must be appalling and that's not because we don't have as many fans as the other teams, it's because the football we played was shite and boring.

Brentford are a tiny club compared to us yet nobody has mentioned it, nobody in the media, there's not a negative narrative surrounding Brentford, just positivity, people like watching them play. Hopefully this will change for us going forward and long gone are the days of football from the 1950s.

If you want to compare us to Brentford was there negativity in the press after we stayed up in the first season back?

I thought they considered it a masterstroke they way we had gone down, come back up straight away and then stayed up

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:29 pm

According to BBC news Forest dominated football in the 1970s

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Mon May 30, 2022 6:50 pm

It is all about what happens on the pitch,however it is looking like things that happen in the VAR room are having an unfavourable outcome for certain clubs.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon May 30, 2022 8:45 pm

bfcjg wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 6:50 pm
It is all about what happens on the pitch,however it is looking like things that happen in the VAR room are having an unfavourable outcome for certain clubs.

but surely if that was correct and the whole game is corrupt and favours the big teams only, Leeds, Sheff Wed, Forest and Sunderland wouldn't have been in the 3rd tier at all. It was funny to see the Burnley fans claim the games corrupt because Forest got lucky decisions from a poor ref in the playoff final, Forest haven't been in the PL for 23 years, the referees can't favour them that much!

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Mon May 30, 2022 9:07 pm

Not sure VAR was in use for those teams, and let's face it they helped Leeds against us.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon May 30, 2022 9:28 pm

Pickles wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 2:36 pm
Yep. Mainly peddled by telly-clappers but now spreading to fans of teams like Brighton (?!?!) and of course it's a given with Leeds fans. Forest fans recently too. Buckle up for next season. The Forest "narrative" will be loud. People have been brainwashed by SKY etc into believing a shiny stadium, a kit launch, and social media followers are what matters above all else. And if your team doesn't play the tippy tappy stuff then honestly, you might as well give up.

Brighton are a great example, before Bloom appeared on the scene they were slumming it at Gillingham's ground, while playing in the 3rd tier in front of a man and a dog, now suddenly because they've been bankrolled to the PL, their fans seem to think they're a big club, when in reality they've never won anything of note in their entire history, the true epitaxy of a nothing club.

At least Forest and Leeds do have past glories to recall, and like them or not they are both traditional clubs.

The reality seems to be unless you've got big money behind you the PL dream is unrealistic for many clubs, certainly on a long term basis anyway, they might might a fleeting visit now and again for a season or two if they're lucky, but without serious investment any period in the PL will be limited.

Norwich are a case in point, and also WBA, both continue to yo-yo up and down regularly, and they are the archetypal clubs that are too good for the Championship, yet not quite good enough, or big enough to compete at the top table.

Brentford have done tremendously well in their debut season, but let's see how they cope next time when expectations will be raised.

Superjohnnyfrancis · Post by **Superjohnnyfrancis** » Mon May 30, 2022 9:37 pm

Jon Moss and his brown envelope definitely believed Forrest deserved to be in the top league yesterday

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon May 30, 2022 9:43 pm

You may not like it but if any team deserves to be in the Premier League over other teams (including us) then its got to be Nottingham Forest

Pickles · Post by **Pickles** » Tue May 31, 2022 1:03 pm

tiger76 wrote: ↑
Mon May 30, 2022 9:28 pm
Brighton are a great example, before Bloom appeared on the scene they were slumming it at Gillingham's ground, while playing in the 3rd tier in front of a man and a dog, now suddenly because they've been bankrolled to the PL, their fans seem to think they're a big club, when in reality they've never won anything of note in their entire history, the true epitaxy of a nothing club.

At least Forest and Leeds do have past glories to recall, and like them or not they are both traditional clubs.

The reality seems to be unless you've got big money behind you the PL dream is unrealistic for many clubs, certainly on a long term basis anyway, they might might a fleeting visit now and again for a season or two if they're lucky, but without serious investment any period in the PL will be limited.

Norwich are a case in point, and also WBA, both continue to yo-yo up and down regularly, and they are the archetypal clubs that are too good for the Championship, yet not quite good enough, or big enough to compete at the top table.

Brentford have done tremendously well in their debut season, but let's see how they cope next time when expectations will be raised.

Spent quite a bit of time in Sussex, spoken to a few Brighton fans. Odd lot. Very plastic. Huge catchment area though. And Bloom's money, as you say.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue May 31, 2022 2:38 pm

The prem like shiny grounds, so Derby would be more than a fit than Nottingham. As would Sunderland, Bolton etc

Size matters, however posh ground seems to matter more.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue May 31, 2022 4:02 pm

IanMcL wrote: ↑
Tue May 31, 2022 2:38 pm
Size matters

You'd know

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:09 pm

Real Madrid deserve to be in a European super league.
On their own.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:11 pm

IanMcL wrote: ↑
Tue May 31, 2022 2:38 pm
The prem like shiny grounds, so Derby would be more than a fit than Nottingham. As would Sunderland, Bolton etc

Size matters, however posh ground seems to matter more.

Milton Keynes better be on their wants list then. That's a much nicer ground than Sunderland, Bolton, Leicester, West ham.

Smile · Post by **Smile** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:15 pm

timshorts wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:09 pm
Real Madrid deserve to be in a European super league.
On their own.

I did find that a tad cringeworthy. But that's Real Madrid for you.

AwayClaret · Post by **AwayClaret** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:26 pm

Clubs deserve to be where they are. Simple as that really.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:34 pm

timshorts wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:11 pm
Milton Keynes better be on their wants list then. That's a much nicer ground than Sunderland, Bolton, Leicester, West ham.

The promise of that stadium was how they stole the Wombles in the first place!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:08 am

I think the 'big club' attitude started in the studio with pundits who generally struggle to speak a coherent sentence.

I'm happy with Barnsley, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Brentford and Burnley spoiling the party whilst the other B's keep looking through the window

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:25 am

When we were in the bottom league prior to the Orient game we got a lot of press and TV coverage and support from Neutrals, which was due to our History.

In reality us, Wolves and Bolton were “too big” for that league with our fan bases.

Yes on a football results basis we deserved to be there, but that was down to mismanagement off the pitch whereas there is a ceiling for even the best managed clubs.