Question about red cards and substitutions

[Spiral]

Imagine this scenario: a team is ahead and they've been frustrating the opposition who are full of crybabies, your Neymars and your Brunos and your Ronaldos and whatnot, to use an example, (I'm imagining Mourinho-era Real Madrid kind of thing) and at say 1-0 down this losing team makes a substitution. So the incoming player is ready, the fourth official is ready. The play stops. The referee signals for the substitution. The outgoing player has not yet left the field, but is walking off. Someone from the winning side says something to get under the skin of the player leaving ("good game, mate" with a massive cheeky grin on his face and sarcastic applause, something like that) and the player coming off raises his hand to the opposing player's face, resulting in a straight red card for violent conduct.

What happens here? Does the substitution get 'cancelled' because the player hasn't left the field, meaning the team plays with 10 men and doesn't get to make the sub; do they choose to sub off someone else? Or does the red carded player get sent off effectively from the benches, with the team allowed its substitution and keeping 11 on the field? Is it to do with the point where the ref stops the game, or the exact moment a player leaves the field? It's just that we sometimes see players running on the field before a player leaves. You hypothetically could be adjudicating precisely what is happening in short, second's-long moments. Or let's say, for example, in the case of the incoming player entering the pitch, and the outgoing player walking off the other side as they have been allowed to do for a few seasons, but he hasn't yet left the field, and the ref hasn't restarted play, and the above scenario happens.

[Rileybobs]

I’m almost certain that the substitution hasn’t been made until the substitute enters the field of play, which they legally can’t until the departing player has left said field. So substitution cancelled.

I guess any sending off offence committed by a player after being substituted would result in the same action as if a player on the bench is sent off, ie leave the side of the pitch and suspension.

[bfcjg]

I'd shrug my shoulders and have a pie.

[claptrappers_union]

I think there been instances where a player coming off has received a second yellow for time wasting.

[Spiral]

I’m almost certain that the substitution hasn’t been made until the substitute enters the field of play, which they legally can’t until the departing player has left said field. So substitution cancelled.

I guess any sending off offence committed by a player after being substituted would result in the same action as if a player on the bench is sent off, ie leave the side of the pitch and suspension.

Right, interesting. So based on this understanding of the rules an outgoing player's status as being on the field or off the field is defined not by him being on the field or off it, but necessarily by the incoming player being on the field or off the field, right? So if the outgoing player leaves the field and the incoming player takes a moment (for whatever reason) to enter the field, the face-shove could theoretically happen off the field and the player be sent off, resulting in 10 men, if the oncoming player hasn't crossed the line?

[Rileybobs]

Right, interesting. So based on this understanding of the rules an outgoing player's status as being on the field or off the field is defined not by him being on the field or off it, but necessarily by the incoming player being on the field or off the field, right? So if the outgoing player leaves the field and the incoming player takes a moment (for whatever reason) to enter the field, the face-shove could theoretically happen off the field and the player be sent off, resulting in 10 men, if the oncoming player hasn't crossed the line?

That would be my understanding. Although I’m just using logic rather than any knowledge of the laws.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

Don't worry about it, VAR would sort it all out.
Law 3 states:- The substitution is completed when a substitute enters the field of play; from that moment, the replaced player becomes a substituted player and the substitute becomes a player and can take any restart.
The fact that they have made the ruling that a substitute should leave the field by the shortest route only complicates matters, even though the majority just ignore that instruction and leave where the sub is coming on. The substitution is only completed once the sub enters the field of play, therefore, the subbed player is deemed to be a part of the team until that happens.

[Spiral]

Don't worry about it, VAR would sort it all out.
Law 3 states:- The substitution is completed when a substitute enters the field of play; from that moment, the replaced player becomes a substituted player and the substitute becomes a player and can take any restart.
The fact that they have made the ruling that a substitute should leave the field by the shortest route only complicates matters, even though the majority just ignore that instruction and leave where the sub is coming on. The substitution is only completed once the sub enters the field of play, therefore, the subbed player is deemed to be a part of the team until that happens.

Great stuff. Imagine whipping out the VAR freeze-frames for this. Pause at the exact moment the player's hand touches his opponent's face, get the ruler and compass and protractor out, 50X zoom on the incoming player's foot: is he on the field or not? Referee does the review signal, has a look himself. Would be hilarious.

[Claret Toni]

Extending the what if to another scenario.

An already yellow carded player commits a 2nd bookable offence, but the ref plays on as there is a clear advantage to the other team. There is a shot on goal and the keeper makes a good save, and the ball remains in play.

The ball is played out and with no break in play a chance is created at the other end and the player who committed the 2nd bookable offence scores. As this is the 1st break in play the ref sends the player off and the goal stands.

Is that correct?

[Ashingtonclaret46]

Extending the what if to another scenario.

An already yellow carded player commits a 2nd bookable offence, but the ref plays on as there is a clear advantage to the other team. There is a shot on goal and the keeper makes a good save, and the ball remains in play.

The ball is played out and with no break in play a chance is created at the other end and the player who committed the 2nd bookable offence scores. As this is the 1st break in play the ref sends the player off and the goal stands.

Is that correct?

Here is part of the interpretation to be observed when playing advantage:- Advantage should not be applied in situations involving serious foul play, violent conduct or a second cautionable offence unless there is a clear opportunity to score a goal. The referee must send off the player when the ball is next out of play but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.

As clear as mud and we criticise officials! Bear in mind that the above is a pure fraction of everything which an official MUST know and try to administer whilst players are cheating during every minute of the game. Try it some time.

[Duffer_]

Here is part of the interpretation to be observed when playing advantage:- Advantage should not be applied in situations involving serious foul play, violent conduct or a second cautionable offence unless there is a clear opportunity to score a goal. The referee must send off the player when the ball is next out of play but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.

As clear as mud and we criticise officials! Bear in mind that the above is a pure fraction of everything which an official MUST know and try to administer whilst players are cheating during every minute of the game. Try it some time.

Loving this thread! It reminds me of the time I spent on a referees forum going through hypothetical situations with thinly veiled references to Ashley Barnes' red at Everton and use of the advantage rule They were very patient and reasonable with me tbf.

Appreciate there is loads to think about but this one looks straightforward based on what you posted Ashington. As soon as the player on the 2nd touches the ball the game is stopped and they are sent off, so no opportunity to score for the player with the pending second yellow. Is that right?

[Duffer_]

Evidence that I am "inquisitive" on multiple forums.

20220828_235724.jpg (207.09 KiB) Viewed 697 times

[claptrappers_union]

I think there been instances where a player coming off has received a second yellow for time wasting.

It happened at Deepdale to Preston centre-back Youl Mawéné in a game against West Bromwich Albion.

Having been booked five minutes earlier he was due to be substituted after suffering a shoulder injury. He started trotting off only to be ordered to stay on by the management as we were defending a corner at the time. The referee viewed Youl's decision to stop and turn back as time-wasting and duly gave him the second yellow

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... edge.sport

[distortiondave]

Jack Cork currently has no yellow card in this imaginary game, but a Millwall midfielder scoots past him, Jack pulls his shirt but the millwall lad breaks free and ref plays advantage. The millwall lad dallies around, and the advantage seems lost, but millwall keep the ball. 20 seconds later, Jack tries to bring another millwall player down, but again the ref plays advantage, which is blasted out for our goal kick.
Does Cork get booked twice?

[claptrappers_union]

You can get booked twice in the same passage of play - https://youtu.be/P1jELHaraJs

[Hipper]

Imagine this scenario: a team is ahead and they've been frustrating the opposition who are full of crybabies....

Have you just been watching Wolves?