The Turf

[No Ney Never]

Will we ever need a stadia with a greater capacity than what we currently have?

[PremierLeagueClass]

The attendances this season have surpassed all expectations. If we spend more time in the Premier League with the exposure that brings, our fan base will continue to grow. I’d still say it’s unlikely the Turf will become too small for us, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility in the next 10 years if things are going well.

[elwaclaret]

Will we ever need a stadia with a greater capacity than what we currently have?

At a guess… yes. Eventually the Brunley brand will demand increased capacity. One thing that has to be admired about the first ground purchase, they got enough land that we could do anything we need on Turf without ever having to move (planning permission allowing).

[Vegas Claret]

Rebuild the CF stand, make it really steep so we can annoy Coventry should we have the misfortune of playing them again

[Wokingclaret]

Away fans allocation may be too low, we have given them 4000k before now, but the ball was being sucked into the CFS goal

Some say not enough quality seats left as we approach sell out

[houseboy]

I’d say no we don’t need a bigger ground. We weren’t filling it last season in the PL and as good as it is now I think we all know the VK days will end. Even when we go back up we will never have the money to compete at the top end so it will be eventually be back to basic survival. And people will get bored, as has been proved. Many on here have said that they had got sick of just ticking along surviving, it gets stale. That’s when crowds will fall off again. Our average gate in the top flight in my time has always been 19/20k. That’s as good as it gets. I have been on the Turf with big crowds in the 30k plus mark but they were rare and not worth spending money on a bigger ground for. You only have to look down the road at a 30k capacity ground that has never been filled in a town twice the size of Burnley to see it’s not needed.

[dibraidio]

Increasing capacity is not cost effective without increased hospitality. I can't see ALK wanting to borrow money to build a single tier stand that would take more than a decade to pay for itself. Even with hospitality I think it's doubtful that it will be viewed as a priority.

[Dressinggown]

The focus is currently on the CFS which needs some major upgrades or replacement.

There are surely some new ways of implementing any Turf Moor redevelopment?

Liverpool managed to chuck up a new main stand with an extra 8,500 seats whilst the old stand was still in use. That could be the way forward for the CFS. A stumbling block could be the fact that
Anfields new stand cost £100 Millon

Knocking it down could be delayed until the last minute when the major works of the new stand are completed. The lack of available space will always be the main issue in terms of sorting this out.

Do we replace the CFS using the current footprint incorporating facilities for the cricket club.? If any increase in capacity is needed then an additional upper tier could be considered. However, there are options to enlarge any of the other stands on the Turf.

I have a bias towards the other Lancashire League cricket team in town but I cannot see the cricket club moving without a fight. Legal challenges could drag the issue out for the next few years. I am not in favour of losing some of our sporting heritage.in Burnley.

I'm struggling to think of any Lancashire League teams who have relocated in recent times.unless part of a merger..

Interesting times.

[Chester Perry]

The focus is currently on the CFS which needs some major upgrades or replacement.

There are surely some new ways of implementing any Turf Moor redevelopment?

Liverpool managed to chuck up a new main stand with an extra 8,500 seats whilst the old stand was still in use. That could be the way forward for the CFS. A stumbling block could be the fact that
Anfields new stand cost £100 Millon

Knocking it down could be delayed until the last minute when the major works of the new stand are completed. The lack of available space will always be the main issue in terms of sorting this out.

Do we replace the CFS using the current footprint incorporating facilities for the cricket club.? If any increase in capacity is needed then an additional upper tier could be considered. However, there are options to enlarge any of the other stands on the Turf.

I have a bias towards the other Lancashire League cricket team in town but I cannot see the cricket club moving without a fight. Legal challenges could drag the issue out for the next few years. I am not in favour of losing some of our sporting heritage.in Burnley.

I'm struggling to think of any Lancashire League teams who have relocated in recent times.unless part of a merger..

Interesting times.

If you took the from 10 -15rows out of the Jimmy Mac and the from 5 -10 rows out of the James Hargreaves/North Stand then a new Cricket field Stand could be built with an adjoining corner to the James Hargreaves/North stand which would increase the noise and away support for the Premier league - it would a;;ow for a few more rows in the Bob Lord two it of proved more cost effective than the advertising boards

Whether the cost is worth it is a different issue

[Rileybobs]

If you took the from 10 -15rows out of the Jimmy Mac and the from 5 -10 rows out of the James Hargreaves/North Stand then a new Cricket field Stand could be built with an adjoining corner to the James Hargreaves/North stand which would increase the noise and away support for the Premier league - it would a;;ow for a few more rows in the Bob Lord two it of proved more cost effective than the advertising boards

Whether the cost is worth it is a different issue

We wouldn’t need to alter the JH stand to join a new Cricket Field Stand at the corner. The rows wouldn’t line up, and there would be a low-level wall separating the two stands but this isn’t exactly abnormal at football stadiums.

[Chester Perry]

We wouldn’t need to alter the JH stand to join a new Cricket Field Stand at the corner. The rows wouldn’t line up, and there would be a low-level wall separating the two stands but this isn’t exactly abnormal at football stadiums.

My approach would remove the below pitch level seats around the ground and give an extra 10m+ to the footprint of the Cricket field without needing to impact the Cricket club - capacity may not increase much (does it need too) but atmosphere would ramp up with fans next to the away fans and in the corner under a roof linked to the longside

[Rileybobs]

My approach would remove the below pitch level seats around the ground and give an extra 10m+ to the footprint of the Cricket field without needing to impact the Cricket club - capacity may not increase much (does it need too) but atmosphere would ramp up with fans next to the away fans and in the corner under a roof linked to the longside

Do you mean moving the pitch towards the JM stand? I can’t see any reason why we would need to adapt the JM or JH stands, and are any of our seats actually below pitch level? If you took 10-15 rows out of the JML there would hardly be anything left of it.

[Spijed]

The attendances this season have surpassed all expectations. If we spend more time in the Premier League with the exposure that brings, our fan base will continue to grow. I’d still say it’s unlikely the Turf will become too small for us, but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility in the next 10 years if things are going well.

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

[Quicknick]

No. Our crowds have always been around 20,000 in the top flight with occasional bigger ones with lots of away fans present. In fact, historically, we have always had quite a lot of poor top-flight attendances. I remember 7,000 on one wet night in the late '60s against Sunderland. Mind you, it was abandoned at half time.

[NewClaret]

Does anyone know how many active claret numbers we have? Or the number of ticket sales to unique supporters over a course of a season?

[RVclaret]

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

Brentford/Brighton?

[Quickenthetempo]

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

We have grown our fan base massively over the last 30 years.
I'm struggling to think of a single club in the top 2 divisions who haven't grown their fan base.

[Dark Cloud]

Will we ever need a stadia with a greater capacity than what we currently have?

No, the capacity is fine, but we'll definitely need a more modernised one before long (but DEFINITELY on the same site!)

[NewClaret]

We have grown our fan base massively over the last 30 years.
I'm struggling to think of a single club in the top 2 divisions who haven't grown their fan base.

In the last 10 years that I’ve been involved in kids football, the number of kids wearing Burnley shirts to training has grown immeasurably, kicked off by the PL years recently but this season has gone to a whole new level. 70% I’d say are in Burnley kit, all with Benson/Zaroury/Tella on the back.

I think having nice kits that appeal to young fans (they love home & 3rd designs) is very helpful here, as is having exciting young players of course. And kids have a lot of influence iver their mates in who they support.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Just make the cricket field stand and bob Lord two tiered adding on about another 6k to the ground size and that is big enough for us

[MancunianClaret]

Quite selfishly as I sit in Longside upper, but I'd be against increading the size of the Bob Lord stand as it'd block the wonderful view behind it!

[NewClaret]

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

I’m not certain we need to (in the context of the OP/expansion). I reckon we have 15k ST holders, and most likely the same or larger pool of fans that make up the casual 5k that top that up.

I’m sure ALK want to grow it, but that will take time and most likely success, which is difficult to sustain. In the short-term, they could focus on making the current group of casuals attend more often.

There’s all sorts they need to do to achieve that: attractive football being key, keeping prices as low as possible, improving the Matchday experience so it’s not all about the football (good food, drink, entertainment, etc), better advertising of ticket prices (I know loads of parents whose kids are BFC fans who have no idea how affordable it is), and more innovative ticketing products so that fans can buy bundles (they’ve started this tbf).

[NewClaret]

Quite selfishly as I sit in Longside upper, but I'd be against increading the size of the Bob Lord stand as it'd block the wonderful view behind it!

Me too. I’d be gutted. Do that very last

[Jjjack]

I think 26000 would do us, the issue the club will face with increasing stadium size is that realistically we have to think of Burnley as 1 bad season away from PL relegation (should we get there). We could very easily find ourselves back with 12000 on, with a big loan to pay for stadium works at the same time. I'd leave it as it is for the next 10 years though and then assess what we can do with the CF, move the away fans into the BL or JM lower maybe.

[Stayingup]

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

Yes I think ours has grown. And with the scale of new builds in East Lancashire - Rossendale for example - we could well attract new fans. I struggled recently to get two decent sests in the BL for two 'outsiders'. In fact the BL stand could do with the roof being raised so the back rows can see the screen opposite.

[Quickenthetempo]

In the last 10 years that I’ve been involved in kids football, the number of kids wearing Burnley shirts to training has grown immeasurably, kicked off by the PL years recently but this season has gone to a whole new level. 70% I’d say are in Burnley kit, all with Benson/Zaroury/Tella on the back.

I think having nice kits that appeal to young fans (they love home & 3rd designs) is very helpful here, as is having exciting young players of course. And kids have a lot of influence iver their mates in who they support.

Out of all my mates I used to knock about with in my teens/20s, none were Burnley fans, even with being local.

9 out of 10 of them have kids going on the Turf with half taking them on. The cheap family ST deals and premier league football did wonders.
All that with great football can only grow it.

[Quickenthetempo]

Yes I think ours has grown. And with the scale of new builds in East Lancashire - Rossendale for example - we could well attract new fans. I struggled recently to get two decent sests in the BL for two 'outsiders'. In fact the BL stand could do with the roof being raised so the back rows can see the screen opposite.

I think people would rather be dry than see a useless screen.

[wilks_bfc]

In fact the BL stand could do with the roof being raised so the back rows can see the screen opposite.

Just to be clear, do you mean the screen that’s showing the game that’s going in front of them but on a 5 second delay?

[ŽižkovClaret]

Do you mean moving the pitch towards the JM stand? I can’t see any reason why we would need to adapt the JM or JH stands, and are any of our seats actually below pitch level? If you took 10-15 rows out of the JML there would hardly be anything left of it.

TBF the first 4 or 5 rows of the Jimmy Mac stand are frankly terrible seats so i can't disagree with any idea of getting shot of these.

[clarets1978]

Just to be clear, do you mean the screen that’s showing the game that’s going in front of them but on a 5 second delay?

The same screen that tells you how long is left, has the teams named on it, had the names up for in memorium on Saturday and has personal messages which none of us up at the back of the Bob Lord can see

[houseboy]

Is there any evidence clubs can grow a fan base?

A basic fan base is, I believe, fairly static. When a club is doing well you get what are commonly termed ‘the plastics’ but the underlying base is usually static I think. A town the size of Burnley is never going to get 30k or even 25k averages because of the population and our support per head of population is already far above average for a club. If we had a reasonably sustained period of success (by that I mean actually winning things) then we might temporarily increase the average but when that dies back so would the attendances. It’s not the clubs fault or indeed any bodies, you just can’t extract more support from a population that already more than supports the club.

[NewClaret]

Out of all my mates I used to knock about with in my teens/20s, none were Burnley fans, even with being local.

9 out of 10 of them have kids going on the Turf with half taking them on. The cheap family ST deals and premier league football did wonders.
All that with great football can only grow it.

Yes, the majority of “fans“ of the big teams are very casual. I think people assume those fans will never support Burnley but it’s very possible to ‘convert’ with a good product on the pitch. Especially, as you say, once those fans get children who go to school with other Burnley fans and want to experience what they do.

You then have to offer them a great experience to keep them coming back (whatever league we’re in) and I think there’s a lot more we could do on that front.

[Claretforever]

I’m another who would vote for removing the front 5-6 rows of the Jimmy Max and Longside lower tiers. 1. So that the view on the bottom row is then elevated like the older stands, and 2. So that there’s more chance the roof will keep you dry when it’s not gale force winds as well.

It might allow the pitch to be moved over too, so that that should a new Cricket Field be built both stands might have a chance of aligning.

[Lancasterclaret]

No

If you think otherwise, just look at that half empty stadium down the M65

[claretandy]

No

If you think otherwise, just look at that half empty stadium down the M65

TBF their ground holds over 30k, nobody is arguing for that. 25k would be enough.

[Tricky Trevor]

I’d like to see the BL taken back over the pavement. A double win, extra capacity and weather protection at the ticket office.

[martin_p]

TBF their ground holds over 30k, nobody is arguing for that. 25k would be enough.

Yes, but it’d still be half empty if it only held 25k.

[Claretforever]

No

If you think otherwise, just look at that half empty stadium down the M65

I’d definitely be against 30,000. Way too big for our normal needs other than against the top 6.

I’m sure we could make regular use of 25,000 in the Premier League though, and it would also allow us to promote the club further afield with cheap/free tickets to entice the future fans from areas where they might support neighbouring clubs.

[NottsClaret]

This comes up every time we're on a decent run.. then disappears again. It'd be nice to do something with the CFS but that's probably about it. I don't think we need to be much bigger, if at all. Being top of the Championship is better than clinging on to 17th in the Prem and you can still get tickets for any home game you want.

[NewClaret]

A basic fan base is, I believe, fairly static. When a club is doing well you get what are commonly termed ‘the plastics’ but the underlying base is usually static I think. A town the size of Burnley is never going to get 30k or even 25k averages because of the population and our support per head of population is already far above average for a club. If we had a reasonably sustained period of success (by that I mean actually winning things) then we might temporarily increase the average but when that dies back so would the attendances. It’s not the clubs fault or indeed any bodies, you just can’t extract more support from a population that already more than supports the club.

I definitely agree you have a more static core base of fans, then a flexible (possibly larger) group of more casual fans. As you say, nobodies fault, but the strategy for the club must be around encouraging those to attend more regularly.

Another point nobody has really mentioned is that there is general trend toward population growth. It may me small and over a long period but just generally you’d expect our catchment to be bigger in 10 years than today. In that sense I can see it being feasible to increase TM but only in small amounts and over time.

I would redevelop the CFS, potentially adding another 1000 seats if possible (all rail seating), half and half to Home/Away, then possibly joining the Longside and JM assuming it’s possible to create improved accessible facilities elsewhere, before considering and additions to the BL. That’s where a big leap of faith would be required.

What TM need is a vision though. Doesn't have to be done all in one go and could be a mix of really tactical stuff and then bigger redevelopment further down the line.

[Lancasterclaret]

TBF their ground holds over 30k, nobody is arguing for that. 25k would be enough.

12,000 crowd and its still half full

[Spijed]

Both Bradford and Charlton fell into the trap some of our fans think we should fall into and ended up with grounds that are now too big for what they require. All because they thought being in the top division and the success that comes with it would never end.

[Dark Cloud]

No

If you think otherwise, just look at that half empty stadium down the M65

There's definitely a lesson to be learnt here. At the height of their success they probably had about the same number of regular home fans as we can muster (20,000 ish), so the extra capacity they created looks daft, especially when the good times fade away. However the one thing to note is how much the capacity created allowed them to sell loads more away tickets and cash in, especially when Chelsea, City, Utd, Liverpool, etc come to town. We'd easily sell 5,000 to this lot in the PL, but do we actually want to? The money is good, but the atmosphere created might not help us on the field.

[Colburn_Claret]

I would like to see capacity increased, but 28,000 is probably the max.
Considering where most money comes from, I would make some use of the extra seats by encouraging kids into the ground. U10s free with a paying adult. Cheaper rates for lone U16s. Blocks of seats given to local schools pro rata.
We've made great strides, as every club has since the 70's, but giving kids the bug early, is the key to continuing on that upward curve.

[Corky]

Whenever the issue of ground development is raised on UTC there always appear to be a few nay sayers who seem to think that this automatically means increasing the capacity. It doesn't. What should be considered is what parts of the Turf are passed their sell by date and are in need of redevelopment. And first and foremost we should look at what level and what type of hospitality the club need. Then a decision needs to be made as to how that then fits into the Stadia. So, assuming the CFS is the next to face the chop then it will need to be two tier with a smaller section of seats at the front followed by hospitality boxes. Behind that you can then have a bigger tier of safe standing seats. And beneath the terracing the club needs to decide how adventurous or not they want to go. Do we want a Nightclub like Wimbledon used to have, more function rooms, a Pub!!! For what it's worth, whatever is decided, I do not see a need to raise capacity beyond 25,000 if that. The challenge is to be able to raise income on non football match days.

[Lancasterclaret]

There's definitely a lesson to be learnt here. At the height of their success they probably had about the same number of regular home fans as we can muster (20,000 ish), so the extra capacity they created looks daft, especially when the good times fade away. However the one thing to note is how much the capacity created allowed them to sell loads more away tickets and cash in, especially when Chelsea, City, Utd, Liverpool, etc come to town. We'd easily sell 5,000 to this lot in the PL, but do we actually want to? The money is good, but the atmosphere created might not help us on the field.

I have absolutely no interest in selling more away tickets

I love the fact that there is a meltdown with their fan base when we only give them just over 2,000 tickets

[Claretforever]

Both Bradford and Charlton fell into the trap some of our fans think we should fall into and ended up with grounds that are now too big for what they require. All because they thought being in the top division and the success that comes with it would never end.

Probably correct. Unfortunately though, we are going to have to make a decision sooner rather than later because that Cricket Field Stand roof structure isn’t going to keep passing the safety test. So the minimum needed is a new roof, which I’m sure would be well into the millions these days.

[martin_p]

Whenever the issue of ground development is raised on UTC there always appear to be a few nay sayers who seem to think that this automatically means increasing the capacity. It doesn't. What should be considered is what parts of the Turf are passed their sell by date and are in need of redevelopment. And first and foremost we should look at what level and what type of hospitality the club need. Then a decision needs to be made as to how that then fits into the Stadia. So, assuming the CFS is the next to face the chop then it will need to be two tier with a smaller section of seats at the front followed by hospitality boxes. Behind that you can then have a bigger tier of safe standing seats. And beneath the terracing the club needs to decide how adventurous or not they want to go. Do we want a Nightclub like Wimbledon used to have, more function rooms, a Pub!!! For what it's worth, whatever is decided, I do not see a need to raise capacity beyond 25,000 if that. The challenge is to be able to raise income on non football match days.

I think this is more to the point, what do we do with the ageing parts of our ground? The CFS is about 55 years old now and has probably stood longer than any other single structure in the history of the Turf. It needs modernising but comes with it’s own set of challenges. It’d have to occupy the same footprint given it backs onto the cricket field. It currently houses the changing rooms so any new stand would have to do the same unless there’s a better solution. So it makes the capacity for any additional facilities in a new stand fairly limited in my opinion.

[NickBFC]

I think a small increase in capacity would be fine, 23-25k maximum. What is definitely needed as an upgrade to the aging CFS and probably the BL too.

[Lancasterclaret]

Does anyone know if we replace the CF with rail seats whether it rises the capacity, or reduce it?