Transfer embargo

[dsr]

Won't be popular with a fair few on here.

Those who have Pace down as a liar, enjoy the snake oil salesman comment or do the juvenile thing of putting a like on any negative comment aimed at Pace and the owners.

It's easy to invent opponents to argue with, but what about the more real people that don't think Pace is necessarily God's gift - the ones who think that Pace has taken £150m out of the club and has little intention of paying it back, and who has an abysmal record of correcting errors of late filing?

The Calder Vale accounts filing saga (now 9 months late) does not incline me to take his word about administrative filing problems being easily solved. If it was that easy, why hasn't it been done? I certainly hope and expect that our accounts will be filed with the league in time to avoid penalties, but it's not Pace's word that I'll take for it.

I will say that Pace appears to be doing an exceptional job with what's left of club funds, after taking his £150m out.

[RVclaret]

I will say that Pace appears to be doing an exceptional job with what's left of club funds, after taking his £150m out.

'his' 150m

Surprised he hasn't ran off to somewhere sunny with that cash.

Glad you are wiser than Pace himself about what his intentions are, like many were before this season started.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It's easy to invent opponents to argue with, but what about the more real people that don't think Pace is necessarily God's gift - the ones who think that Pace has taken £150m out of the club and has little intention of paying it back, and who has an abysmal record of correcting errors of late filing?

The Calder Vale accounts filing saga (now 9 months late) does not incline me to take his word about administrative filing problems being easily solved. If it was that easy, why hasn't it been done? I certainly hope and expect that our accounts will be filed with the league in time to avoid penalties, but it's not Pace's word that I'll take for it.

I will say that Pace appears to be doing an exceptional job with what's left of club funds, after taking his £150m out.

If there are people out there with these thoughts then I would be fine calling these thoughts dumb

[Paul Waine]

I’ll post the quotes because the site is a bit crap:

"I keep it really simple because I know a little bit about the inner workings of the club. Every business, every company, has revenues and costs and in our case the revenues exceed the costs that we have because of the transfers we've done in the summer.

"It's not a financial matter for us, it's an administration issue. When you change ownership, accountants, auditors, these types of things will be resolved in time. We'll have an answer very soon, but nobody is worried from our side."

"If you look at a club that's not been trading, and who has been amassing costs, I think there's a valid reason to be worried, but if you look at how we've been trading in the last six months…”

"You know how you generate revenue; it's either through fans, merchandise, ticketing or player sales. Compared to the previous years you can see we've been very strong on all fronts. Unfortunately mistakes happen and we're looking forward to the next summer transfer window."

Vincent Kompany understands what he is speaking about. How many other coaches/managers have an MBA and is fully qualified to understand and comment on their club's finances and accounts?

Looking at things from a different perspective, does the embargo and questions around Burnley's accounts give us an edge over City at the w/end, given the investigations into City's accounts?

UTC

[jedi_master]

Kompany spoke in pre-season about Pace's transparency with him on the clubs financial situation, and that he needed to know everything to be comfortable with presumably taking the job. I would expect when the news came out that Kompany wanted a full, honest and transparent assessment of exactly what is going on and when it will be sorted by.

[Paul Waine]

It's easy to invent opponents to argue with, but what about the more real people that don't think Pace is necessarily God's gift - the ones who think that Pace has taken £150m out of the club and has little intention of paying it back, and who has an abysmal record of correcting errors of late filing?

The Calder Vale accounts filing saga (now 9 months late) does not incline me to take his word about administrative filing problems being easily solved. If it was that easy, why hasn't it been done? I certainly hope and expect that our accounts will be filed with the league in time to avoid penalties, but it's not Pace's word that I'll take for it.

I will say that Pace appears to be doing an exceptional job with what's left of club funds, after taking his £150m out.

Hi dsr, when did the club have £150m to give to Pace or anyone else? I think the club funds borrowed as part of the takeover was £37 million. The £65 million loan from MSD has been repaid. Whatever else Pace has borrowed/spent looks like being repaid with immediate return to Premier League along with the excellent transfer business over the past 4 transfer windows.

UTC

[Paul Waine]

Kompany spoke in pre-season about Pace's transparency with him on the clubs financial situation, and that he needed to know everything to be comfortable with presumably taking the job. I would expect when the news came out that Kompany wanted a full, honest and transparent assessment of exactly what is going on and when it will be sorted by.

Vincent Kompany will have known what was going on all the time. He knows a lot more about the club's accounts than even the most informed posters on here.

[jtv]

I’m changing my username !!!

The club didn’t say that in their statement either. Not sure how it can be an administrative error when the accounts are still not ready. They are simply late…..whatever VK says about it.
That does not mean I think it’s going to cause any issues. Expect it to be all resolved pretty soon with no real impact but a bit of bad press. Would be a lot more worried if I was a Huddersfield fan about their late accounts.

BFC never said that the accounts were not ready. Just that their audit has not been completed yet. Draft accounts have been submitted.

[dsr]

Hi dsr, when did the club have £150m to give to Pace or anyone else? I think the club funds borrowed as part of the takeover was £37 million. The £65 million loan from MSD has been repaid. Whatever else Pace has borrowed/spent looks like being repaid with immediate return to Premier League along with the excellent transfer business over the past 4 transfer windows.

UTC

You're looking at the wrong end. I'm not talking about the money the club owes to other creditors, I'm talking about the money Pace owes to Burnley FC. The 2021 accounts confirmed that he had taken £140m (as at Dacember 2021) out of the club. There has been no suggestion that I know of, that any of that has been repaid.

[dsr]

'his' 150m

Surprised he hasn't ran off to somewhere sunny with that cash.

Glad you are wiser than Pace himself about what his intentions are, like many were before this season started.

I've no idea what his intentions are. Is he intending to continue taking tens of millions out of the club every year? Is he intending to take three or four million? Is he intending to sell the club to the highest bidder? Is he intending to convert the loan debtor to dividends so he never has to pay it back? He hasn't told us.

You're right, the £150m he has taken out isn't "his" money - but is he intending to pay it back, and how?

[Big Vinny K]

BFC never said that the accounts were not ready. Just that their audit has not been completed yet. Draft accounts have been submitted.

Semantics.
To have your year end accounts in draft and not signed off yet means they are not ready. That’s just a fact.
I have said I believe the content of the accounts will be fine but that does not mean that they cannot change between draft and finalised accounts. And this is why we have been placed under a transfer embargo as draft accounts are not acceptable to the EFL nor are they to HMRC or any other authority.

[boatshed bill]

some people think they don't deserve a parking fine for being 10 minutes over

[Sleeping Cat]

Do you know the finances of all the other 91 clubs then

No, but those clubs have released their accounts from 2-3 years ago so their fans have at least seen some level of accounting about their club.

[HistoricalClaret]

No, but those clubs have released their accounts from 2-3 years ago so their fans have at least seen some level of accounting about their club.

so has our club the only accounts due in are our most recent ones but that wouldn't suit your agenda would it?

[Cooclaret]

You're looking at the wrong end. I'm not talking about the money the club owes to other creditors, I'm talking about the money Pace owes to Burnley FC. The 2021 accounts confirmed that he had taken £140m (as at Dacember 2021) out of the club. There has been no suggestion that I know of, that any of that has been repaid.

He owes the club, nothing. It’s his club, it’s his business.

You own nothing, and have staked nothing. It’s not your business.

Pace is repaying you with the excellent business he has done as Chairman of his business.

[clarethomer]

You're looking at the wrong end. I'm not talking about the money the club owes to other creditors, I'm talking about the money Pace owes to Burnley FC. The 2021 accounts confirmed that he had taken £140m (as at Dacember 2021) out of the club. There has been no suggestion that I know of, that any of that has been repaid.

Surely the money that came out of the club has gone to the old directors/owners of the club to buy their shares? Pace hasn't personally pocketed it?

Wouldn't it be true to say that the old directors and owners created that wealth within the club (via their initial investments, risk of own money, continued investment and a bit of luck) which then allowed them to exit their investment.

They basically fattened the goose for their own benefit when they saw a profitable way to exit their investment and if they weren't wanting to do that, we wouldn't of had that money either in the club as it would have been spent on refreshing the squad?

In summary, the reason there was that money in the club to start off with was because the Directors knew this was their money and it would open up the market to potential buyers and increase the value of the club?

Given that there are not that many people in the world with circa £180m lying around and even fewer that would be excited (or prepared) to invest their own money in to a small Lancashire mill town football club, it therefore seemed clear that this approach was encouraged.

[dsr]

Surely the money that came out of the club has gone to the old directors/owners of the club to buy their shares? Pace hasn't personally pocketed it?

Wouldn't it be true to say that the old directors and owners created that wealth within the club (via their initial investments, risk of own money, continued investment and a bit of luck) which then allowed them to exit their investment.

They basically fattened the goose for their own benefit when they saw a profitable way to exit their investment and if they weren't wanting to do that, we wouldn't of had that money either in the club as it would have been spent on refreshing the squad?

In summary, the reason there was that money in the club to start off with was because the Directors knew this was their money and it would open up the market to potential buyers and increase the value of the club?

Given that there are not that many people in the world with circa £180m lying around and even fewer that would be excited (or prepared) to invest their own money in to a small Lancashire mill town football club, it therefore seemed clear that this approach was encouraged.

There are various ways to look at it. But however you look at it, Garlick and Pace have made a deal whereby Pace gets a football club having stumped up £15m or thereabouts to buy it, Garlick and friends get £165m for selling their shares, and the difference comes out of club funds. Pace, in effect, incurred a large liability to pay Garlick and friends for their shares, and borrowed money from the club to fund it.

Garlick had the choice, to spend that £150m on players and wages and club assets such as a new Cricket Field Stand, or to pocket the money for himself. He chose to take the money.

[JTClaret]

There are various ways to look at it. But however you look at it, Garlick and Pace have made a deal whereby Pace gets a football club having stumped up £15m or thereabouts to buy it, Garlick and friends get £165m for selling their shares, and the difference comes out of club funds. Pace, in effect, incurred a large liability to pay Garlick and friends for their shares, and borrowed money from the club to fund it.

Garlick had the choice, to spend that £150m on players and wages and club assets such as a new Cricket Field Stand, or to pocket the money for himself. He chose to take the money.

I have seen you have always been quite wary of the situation, and seemingly justifiably due to this whole situation.
But, having seen what Pace has actually done in his short time at the club, and the position we find ourselves in (about to be back in the Premier League). Can I ask what your major fears are?

To me, he looks to be doing a cracking job, everything seems to be fair eg. we haven't spent big money on transfers really. As it stands, he looks to have set us up incredibly well to do what he said he wanted to. Personally, if somebody wants to use us as a money making machine, that machine only works if we are successful, so I hope they make a lot of money (granted without fleecing fans, but you don't pick Burnley if that's your plan).

[Cooclaret]

There are various ways to look at it. But however you look at it, Garlick and Pace have made a deal whereby Pace gets a football club having stumped up £15m or thereabouts to buy it, Garlick and friends get £165m for selling their shares, and the difference comes out of club funds. Pace, in effect, incurred a large liability to pay Garlick and friends for their shares, and borrowed money from the club to fund it.

Garlick had the choice, to spend that £150m on players and wages and club assets such as a new Cricket Field Stand, or to pocket the money for himself. He chose to take the money.

And rightly so. That’s business.

[HistoricalClaret]

And rightly so. That’s business.

No ones saying anything about Garlick though they are criticising Pace for taking money out of the club which Garlick DID while HE was owner Pace just agreed to the deal because he wanted the club the man who took the money is Garlick rightfully or wrongly thats the be all end all.

[boatshed bill]

Mike Garlick did a lot more for the club than he gets credit for.
Whether he walked away with the profit he is assumed to have made or not it was his to take. Look at the positives

[Cooclaret]

No ones saying anything about Garlick though they are criticising Pace for taking money out of the club which Garlick DID while HE was owner Pace just agreed to the deal because he wanted the club the man who took the money is Garlick rightfully or wrongly thats the be all end all.

Read above…

He could spent it…and so on. That’s direct criticism

[HistoricalClaret]

Read above…

He could spent it…and so on. That’s direct criticism

Yes he could have he didnt because he wanted to pocket it I dont like it but doesnt mean hes not allowed to do it

[dsr]

I have seen you have always been quite wary of the situation, and seemingly justifiably due to this whole situation.
But, having seen what Pace has actually done in his short time at the club, and the position we find ourselves in (about to be back in the Premier League). Can I ask what your major fears are?

To me, he looks to be doing a cracking job, everything seems to be fair eg. we haven't spent big money on transfers really. As it stands, he looks to have set us up incredibly well to do what he said he wanted to. Personally, if somebody wants to use us as a money making machine, that machine only works if we are successful, so I hope they make a lot of money (granted without fleecing fans, but you don't pick Burnley if that's your plan).

For what he has done on the field, I agree he has done an outstanding job. Whether that job is limited to appointing the right manager and letting him get on with it, or whether there is more to his football input than that, I don't know. But I certainly didn't believe that all that money could come out of the club with no apparent negative effect on the field - in fact, we're probably a better side now than when he started.

For general club management, I have my doubts. He has sacked an awful lot of people and has lost the academy category A status, though we might have got it back by now, I don't know.

It's the finances that I doubt. He has undoubtedly taken £150m or so, and I don't think it's coming back. The ownership chain is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma, as Churchill put it, and as even those companies which are obliged to file accounts, don't so so, we have little idea what's going on. And we don't know his future plans. Is he going to take out tens of millions more? Is he going to sell to any dodgy money man who happens to have the cash? Is he going to remain chairman on a good salary having achieved his ambition and made his pile so he doesn't want much more? He hasn't said.

[dsr]

And rightly so. That’s business.

I'm not saying he isn't allowed to do it. Most of the clubs that have gone bust recently, have done so without their owners doing anything illegal. Pace or any other football club owner is perfectly entitled, if he so wishes, to close the club down and put houses on the home ground. He is entitled to spend the money on what he wants and when he wants and need pay no attention to what anyone else (ie. the fans) wants.

But that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for doing it. West Brom's owner got criticism recently for using £5m of the club's money to support his own business. Never mind that he's allowed to do it, he got criticism. (Well deserved in my view.)

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'm not saying he isn't allowed to do it. Most of the clubs that have gone bust recently, have done so without their owners doing anything illegal. Pace or any other football club owner is perfectly entitled, if he so wishes, to close the club down and put houses on the home ground. He is entitled to spend the money on what he wants and when he wants and need pay no attention to what anyone else (ie. the fans) wants.

But that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for doing it. West Brom's owner got criticism recently for using £5m of the club's money to support his own business. Never mind that he's allowed to do it, he got criticism. (Well deserved in my view.)

WBA are haemorrhaging money, wage bill exceeds income etc.
Of course they're right to criticise the owner for taking money out of the club.
They could do with getting promoted this season but it ain't going to happen.

[Spijed]

Was Mike Garlick a Burnley supporter, or a businessman first and foremost?

[HistoricalClaret]

For what he has done on the field, I agree he has done an outstanding job. Whether that job is limited to appointing the right manager and letting him get on with it, or whether there is more to his football input than that, I don't know. But I certainly didn't believe that all that money could come out of the club with no apparent negative effect on the field - in fact, we're probably a better side now than when he started.

For general club management, I have my doubts. He has sacked an awful lot of people and has lost the academy category A status, though we might have got it back by now, I don't know.

It's the finances that I doubt. He has undoubtedly taken £150m or so, and I don't think it's coming back. The ownership chain is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma, as Churchill put it, and as even those companies which are obliged to file accounts, don't so so, we have little idea what's going on. And we don't know his future plans. Is he going to take out tens of millions more? Is he going to sell to any dodgy money man who happens to have the cash? Is he going to remain chairman on a good salary having achieved his ambition and made his pile so he doesn't want much more? He hasn't said.

Club never had Cat 1 status it was provisional and we were never actually assessed, when assessed the provisional status was revoked and Pace has since applied to get us Cat 1 status back. He hasnt taken 150 million Garlick did in a deal that Garlick was always looking to no matter who bought us.

[dibraidio]

For what he has done on the field, I agree he has done an outstanding job. Whether that job is limited to appointing the right manager and letting him get on with it, or whether there is more to his football input than that, I don't know. But I certainly didn't believe that all that money could come out of the club with no apparent negative effect on the field - in fact, we're probably a better side now than when he started.

For general club management, I have my doubts. He has sacked an awful lot of people and has lost the academy category A status, though we might have got it back by now, I don't know.

It's the finances that I doubt. He has undoubtedly taken £150m or so, and I don't think it's coming back. The ownership chain is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma, as Churchill put it, and as even those companies which are obliged to file accounts, don't so so, we have little idea what's going on. And we don't know his future plans. Is he going to take out tens of millions more? Is he going to sell to any dodgy money man who happens to have the cash? Is he going to remain chairman on a good salary having achieved his ambition and made his pile so he doesn't want much more? He hasn't said.

How do you work out that he's "taken £150m or so"? I thought he'd done a classic leveraged buy out, borrow the money to buy the club and use the revenues of the club or the sale of the assets to service the debt. For the moment my understanding was that ALK are still in the process of buying the club. ALK will probably take 10s of millions or so out of the club the day that it's sold but that's just for the sale of the shares and will no doubt happen when ALK consider that the difference between the value of the club and the level of debt is sufficient to give them a decent pay day. That was always part of their plan and it's just business. If they do sell then of course he won't stay as chairman, he'll move on the ALK's next project and be replaced by the person brought in by the new owners.

[Taffy on the wing]

...........Is this the right room for an argument?