one-two-free

[yTib]

call me an old stickler but i find it rather mental that it seems so difficult to pronounce th.

and no, i am not rowls in disguise.

[jdrobbo]

Yeah, come to fink about it, I had the same fought to be honest.

[yTib]

thuck you.

[gtclaret]

I live in the south where it is very common. I really notice it. It used to be common with children and they grow out of it, not any more

[Nori1958]

call me an old stickler but i find it rather mental that it seems so difficult to pronounce th.

and no, i am not rowls in disguise.

And they still get jobs as football pundits

[karatekid]

Fruitless thinking creates frivolous thoughts as they used to say in the military.

[Woodleyclaret]

I can cope with most accents but the whiney Brummie one leaves me cold. I have turned down jobs in the Midlands incase my kids start talking like Frank Skinner

[Tribesmen]

One two Tree as we say in Ireland

[beeholeclaret]

I can cope with most accents but the whiney Brummie one leaves me cold. I have turned down jobs in the Midlands incase my kids start talking like Frank Skinner

Its a good job we dont have to listen to Lee Hendrie on SS then

[claretonthecoast1882]

They are the same people who say "likkle" or "I want to go the tarlet"

Remove the lot of them

[Rowls]

call me an old stickler but i find it rather mental that it seems so difficult to pronounce th.

and no, i am not rowls in disguise.

It’s lovely how often you name check me yTib.

The “th” sound varies from word to word. The sound at the end of maTHs is different to the sound at the beginning of THe.

However, they’re formed with very similar mouth shapes.

We used to have two additional letters to our alphabet in Old English for the ‘TH’ sound: eth and thorn.

https://readable.com/blog/the-five-lost ... -language/

The distinction between the two letters was the distinction between the sound in ‘THe’ and ‘maTHs’ but it eventually got dropped in writing and then both these letters disappeared all together.

Eth is the ‘d’ with a cross through the stalk that appears in JBG’s name when spelled correctly im Icelandic script.

As you say, it is one of the more difficult sounds to master. Babies mouths aren’t physically capable of making the the full range of sounds we adults can make.

Some sounds are much easier for them to acquire than others. This explains why the words for basic concepts are often similar in languages that aren’t related (the modern simplified Chinese word for Mum is ‘mama’).

Most people are aware that there is a period in childhood when language acquisition is much easier. This isn’t just true for picking up language in terms of vocabulary and grammar - it’s true for the specific sounds of the language.

Our TH diphthong certainly is one of the trickier sounds (it’s the only difficult sound I know of in English) but it’s not a sound that anybody without missing teeth or physical disability shouldn’t be able to learn.

This applies to many sounds in many languages. A good example is the guttural sound in Dutch found in Van Gogh.

Some people pick up the sounds of foreign languages easier than others just as some people pick up vocabulary and grammar much easier.

The human voice box is exceptionally adaptable and, with enough practice, there are very few sounds that you cannot produce. Just go and watch human beat boxing for a demonstration of this.

The reason most foreigners can’t pronounce the TH sound is because they can’t - it’s a rare one and it’s missing from the majority of languages. They all have the potential if they practised continually (just as we can all potentially pick up a violin and master it) but unless they learned English as a child then it will be trickier for them.

The reason most native English speakers often don’t pronounce TH properly is because we’ve become lazy in our habits. It’s no trickier that saying “bottle of water” instead of “bo’le o’ wa’er”.

[beddie]

Yeah, come to fink about it, I had the same fought to be honest.

Didn’t realise you taught English at your current School jd.

[4:20]

My grandma used to pull me up on my 'th' pronunciation all the time....."one...two...free"..."firty"..."even vough" etc....I have somewhat corrected it as an adult, to half the extent (because some of the more complex 'th' sounds in a sentence gave me a bit of a lisp) and now only sound half-fick.

[ClaretAndJew]

If any of you would like a consultation with me, I'm a Speech & Language Therapist, I can help your speech.

[Rowls]

If any of you would like a consultation with me, I'm a Speech & Language Therapist, I can help your speech.

Hi C&J

What physical problems could stop somebody being able to prononce TH properly?

[Goalposts]

Always loved the Yorkshire accent translation of TIN TIN TIN. Which basically is. Ain’t in the tin.

[ClaretDiver]

Could you tell me something pacific…or aks me a question?

[mdd2]

Hi C&J

What physical problems could stop somebody being able to prononce TH properly?

I imagine a missing tongue or people with a tongue from whatever cause which cannot occlude onto the hard palate
So certain types of MND severe cerebral palsy some strokes
But not a SaLT so defer to their expert knowledge of this

[AfloatinClaret]

My grandma used to pull me up on my 'th' pronunciation all the time...

When we moved to North Yorkshire I had a substantially different accent from my classmates and one teacher in particular constantly picked up on my East Lancs accent enquiring as to why I couldn't 'learn to speak the Queen's English'; I might not have minded so much, had it not been for the fact that she did so in a broad Scots accent.

[ClaretAndJew]

Hi C&J

What physical problems could stop somebody being able to prononce TH properly?

Structural issues and/or motor coordination problems mainly, so for adults it could be having parts of the tongue removed due to cancer, soft/hard palate being removed or neurological conditions that affect the motor function of the glossal muscles such as parkinson's, motor neurons disease and even people post stroke could have muscle weakness in the mouth. People with down syndrome also tend to have lower muscle tone and this can impact speech production as well as swallowing. This isn't an exhaustive list.

For children it could be things like tongue tie or cleft lip/palate.

For none physical problems, A lot of the times it could just be the way that someone has learned to produce those particular sounds. So for me for example I glottal a lot of the /t/ sounds so don't say /bottle/ I say /bo?l/ - imagine it like boh-ul. I CAN say the t sound in bottle but my natural speech is with glottals. so it may be that although people produce /fr/ rather than /th/ as an example, it might be that they COULD do /th/ if they concentrated on their speech rather than their natural, automatic speech.

[AfloatinClaret]

To be fair, the Spanish might be to blame? They use 'th' pronunciations all over the shop, which has perhaps led to a world shortage, thereby forcing people to use 'f' instead.

[Bosscat]

Calling a Chimney a Chimley ... Its a ******* CHIMNEY

[mdd2]

And filems for films
Mind you where has Burneley and Engeland come from?

[Rowls]

Chim chim-e-ney
Chim chim-e-ley
Chim chim cheroo

[Colburn_Claret]

It’s lovely how often you name check me yTib.

The “th” sound varies from word to word. The sound at the end of maTHs is different to the sound at the beginning of THe.

However, they’re formed with very similar mouth shapes.

We used to have two additional letters to our alphabet in Old English for the ‘TH’ sound: eth and thorn.

https://readable.com/blog/the-five-lost ... -language/

The distinction between the two letters was the distinction between the sound in ‘THe’ and ‘maTHs’ but it eventually got dropped in writing and then both these letters disappeared all together.

Eth is the ‘d’ with a cross through the stalk that appears in JBG’s name when spelled correctly im Icelandic script.

As you say, it is one of the more difficult sounds to master. Babies mouths aren’t physically capable of making the the full range of sounds we adults can make.

Some sounds are much easier for them to acquire than others. This explains why the words for basic concepts are often similar in languages that aren’t related (the modern simplified Chinese word for Mum is ‘mama’).

Most people are aware that there is a period in childhood when language acquisition is much easier. This isn’t just true for picking up language in terms of vocabulary and grammar - it’s true for the specific sounds of the language.

Our TH diphthong certainly is one of the trickier sounds (it’s the only difficult sound I know of in English) but it’s not a sound that anybody without missing teeth or physical disability shouldn’t be able to learn.

This applies to many sounds in many languages. A good example is the guttural sound in Dutch found in Van Gogh.

Some people pick up the sounds of foreign languages easier than others just as some people pick up vocabulary and grammar much easier.

The human voice box is exceptionally adaptable and, with enough practice, there are very few sounds that you cannot produce. Just go and watch human beat boxing for a demonstration of this.

The reason most foreigners can’t pronounce the TH sound is because they can’t - it’s a rare one and it’s missing from the majority of languages. They all have the potential if they practised continually (just as we can all potentially pick up a violin and master it) but unless they learned English as a child then it will be trickier for them.

The reason most native English speakers often don’t pronounce TH properly is because we’ve become lazy in our habits. It’s no trickier that saying “bottle of water” instead of “bo’le o’ wa’er”.

So sez Professor Enry Iggins

[Buxtonclaret]

Think, therefore l tham.

[Greenmile]

It’s lovely how often you name check me yTib.

The “th” sound varies from word to word. The sound at the end of maTHs is different to the sound at the beginning of THe.

However, they’re formed with very similar mouth shapes.

We used to have two additional letters to our alphabet in Old English for the ‘TH’ sound: eth and thorn.

https://readable.com/blog/the-five-lost ... -language/

The distinction between the two letters was the distinction between the sound in ‘THe’ and ‘maTHs’ but it eventually got dropped in writing and then both these letters disappeared all together.

Eth is the ‘d’ with a cross through the stalk that appears in JBG’s name when spelled correctly im Icelandic script.

As you say, it is one of the more difficult sounds to master. Babies mouths aren’t physically capable of making the the full range of sounds we adults can make.

Some sounds are much easier for them to acquire than others. This explains why the words for basic concepts are often similar in languages that aren’t related (the modern simplified Chinese word for Mum is ‘mama’).

Most people are aware that there is a period in childhood when language acquisition is much easier. This isn’t just true for picking up language in terms of vocabulary and grammar - it’s true for the specific sounds of the language.

Our TH diphthong certainly is one of the trickier sounds (it’s the only difficult sound I know of in English) but it’s not a sound that anybody without missing teeth or physical disability shouldn’t be able to learn.

This applies to many sounds in many languages. A good example is the guttural sound in Dutch found in Van Gogh.

Some people pick up the sounds of foreign languages easier than others just as some people pick up vocabulary and grammar much easier.

The human voice box is exceptionally adaptable and, with enough practice, there are very few sounds that you cannot produce. Just go and watch human beat boxing for a demonstration of this.

The reason most foreigners can’t pronounce the TH sound is because they can’t - it’s a rare one and it’s missing from the majority of languages. They all have the potential if they practised continually (just as we can all potentially pick up a violin and master it) but unless they learned English as a child then it will be trickier for them.

The reason most native English speakers often don’t pronounce TH properly is because we’ve become lazy in our habits. It’s no trickier that saying “bottle of water” instead of “bo’le o’ wa’er”.

Good post this.

A couple of minor corrections, though. The “th” sound isn’t a diphthong - that’s a double vowel sound (eg in “fine” where the vowel sound is the same as in “fan” eliding into the same sound as in “fin”, ie fa-i-n).

Also, it’s not “lazy” to pronounce words differently from Received Pronunciation. In fact, that’s quite a lazy criticism. There’s all sorts of reasons why a person or group of people might deviate from RP, but laziness isn’t one of them.

Just to add, the two “th” sounds (eth and thorn) differ only in that eth (as in “the”) is voiced and thorn (as in “maths”) is unvoiced. ie the vocal chords vibrate when pronouncing the th sound in “the” but they don’t in “maths”. This is the same as the difference between the “f” and “v” sounds, or “p” and “b”. Each of these sounds is formed with the same mouth (tongue teeth and lips) shape as its (un)voiced equivalent.

[ClaretAndJew]

Good post this.

A couple of minor corrections, though. The “th” sound isn’t a diphthong - that’s a double vowel sound (eg in “fine” where the vowel sound is the same as in “fan” eliding into the same sound as in “fin”, ie fa-i-n).

Also, it’s not “lazy” to pronounce words differently from Received Pronunciation. In fact, that’s quite a lazy criticism. There’s all sorts of reasons why a person or group of people might deviate from RP, but laziness isn’t one of them.

Just to add, the two “th” sounds (eth and thorn) differ only in that eth (as in “the”) is voiced and thorn (as in “maths”) is unvoiced. ie the vocal chords vibrate when pronouncing the th sound in “the” but they don’t in “maths”. This is the same as the difference between the “f” and “v” sounds, or “p” and “b”. Each of these sounds is formed with the same mouth (tongue teeth and lips) shape as its (un)voiced equivalent.

Correct

[Rowls]

Good post this.

A couple of minor corrections, though. The “th” sound isn’t a diphthong - that’s a double vowel sound (eg in “fine” where the vowel sound is the same as in “fan” eliding into the same sound as in “fin”, ie fa-i-n).

Also, it’s not “lazy” to pronounce words differently from Received Pronunciation. In fact, that’s quite a lazy criticism. There’s all sorts of reasons why a person or group of people might deviate from RP, but laziness isn’t one of them.

Just to add, the two “th” sounds (eth and thorn) differ only in that eth (as in “the”) is voiced and thorn (as in “maths”) is unvoiced. ie the vocal chords vibrate when pronouncing the th sound in “the” but they don’t in “maths”. This is the same as the difference between the “f” and “v” sounds, or “p” and “b”. Each of these sounds is formed with the same mouth (tongue teeth and lips) shape as its (un)voiced equivalent.

Good reply Greenmile but I have to assert that 'laziness' is a perfectly good word here. There are abbreviations in all languages and they're used to get around trickier sounds to achieve or longer words to say. What you're really objecting to is a pejorative inference that actually isn't there in intent and I say that as a lazy bast@rd myself.

[Rowls]

Correct

It was only partially correct.

[Bosscat]

The Mrs and I were discussing a lot of this on our drive back from Nottingham on Sunday afternoon whilst listening to the radio ... about how a lot of pop singists slur words in the lyrics of songs and don't enunciate like singists of old (not all mind you )

[Rowls]

The Mrs and I were discussing a lot of this on our drive back from Nottingham on Sunday afternoon whilst listening to the radio ... about how a lot of pop singists slur words in the lyrics of songs and don't enunciate like singists of old (not all mind you )

Amy Winehouse was really good at this.

[Greenmile]

Good reply Greenmile but I have to assert that 'laziness' is a perfectly good word here. There are abbreviations in all languages and they're used to get around trickier sounds to achieve or longer words to say. What you're really objecting to is a pejorative inference that actually isn't there in intent and I say that as a lazy bast@rd myself.

Well, “lazy” really is a pejorative, and I speak as a fellow lazy b*st*rd when saying that. If you want to avoid the negative connotations, you could say “efficient” instead

However, I stand by my statement that a regional or social dialect / idiolect is not lazier than RP. Your initial post admits that “It’s no trickier that saying “bottle of water” instead of “bo’le o’ wa’er”.”, so it’s not being done to save energy.

Folk tend to deviate from RP due to their having learned language from their parents / close family, who also speak in dialect, but this is just the most common of many possible reasons. Most of the others relate to signalling belonging to a particular social group or, conversely, distancing oneself from a different social group. eg - if I were to have spoken pure RP during my schooldays, it would have led to my being picked on for being “posh” (ie different from my peers).

We also subconsciously change the way we speak to match with those we are speaking with, if we like them (convergence), or to differentiate from them even more, if we don’t like them (divergence), so if I were speaking to a friend from the Home Counties, my northern accent may soften a little, but if I didn’t like them, I might go even more northern. This wouldn’t necessarily be a conscious choice on my part.

[Greenmile]

Correct

Thank you. I know

[Rowls]

Well, “lazy” really is a pejorative, and I speak as a fellow lazy b*st*rd when saying that. If you want to avoid the negative connotations, you could say “efficient” instead

However, I stand by my statement that a regional or social dialect / idiolect is not lazier than RP. Your initial post admits that “It’s no trickier that saying “bottle of water” instead of “bo’le o’ wa’er”.”, so it’s not being done to save energy.

Folk tend to deviate from RP due to their having learned language from their parents / close family, who also speak in dialect, but this is just the most common of many possible reasons. Most of the others relate to signalling belonging to a particular social group or, conversely, distancing oneself from a different social group. eg - if I were to have spoken pure RP during my schooldays, it would have led to my being picked on for being “posh” (ie different from my peers).

We also subconsciously change the way we speak to match with those we are speaking with, if we like them (convergence), or to differentiate from them even more, if we don’t like them (divergence), so if I were speaking to a friend from the Home Counties, my northern accent may soften a little, but if I didn’t like them, I might go even more northern. This wouldn’t necessarily be a conscious choice on my part.

Yes, if I were an academic of a speech therapist, then 'lazy' wouldn't have been the best word.

But I've never been interesting in being a therapist and made a very conscious decision to stick fingers up towards academia.

"Lazy" is a fine word because it describes the reason people make these behavioural choices in easily understood vernacular. No, it doesn't express all the details and the nuance but it's a fine word.

I'd go so far as to call it apposite.

[jos]

Mind you where has Burneley and Engeland come from?

Turning a two syllable word into three, yep really annoying, especially when sung out loud just shows up the folk singing it.

Eng-er-land Eng-er-land …… no it isn’t.

[Bosscat]

Turning a two syllable word into three, yep really annoying, especially when sung out loud just shows up the folk singing it.

Eng-er-land Eng-er-land …… no it isn’t.

This sort of thing has been done for years to make words fit into tunes ...

The
Oh Burn er ley
Oh Burn er ley
is won der ful
is won der ful

To make it scan ... is a classic case in point

[Greenmile]

Yes, if I were an academic of a speech therapist, then 'lazy' wouldn't have been the best word.

But I've never been interesting in being a therapist and made a very conscious decision to stick fingers up towards academia.

"Lazy" is a fine word because it describes the reason people make these behavioural choices in easily understood vernacular. No, it doesn't express all the details and the nuance but it's a fine word.

I'd go so far as to call it apposite.

People don’t choose their dialect, though. It’s learned behaviour. You might as well call the French or Germans lazy for saying “ze” instead of “the”.

It’s simply the wrong word to use in terms of dialects and the connotation is that folk using RP are in some way “better” (ie less lazy) than those who don’t.

I suspect it’s rooted in a very English and old-fashioned understanding of “class” whereby speaking in a posh accent affords the speaker with a level of respect from some folk, irrespective of what they are actually saying (cf. JRM or Boris Johnson, for example).

This was an interesting conversation and, as I said, your initial post on the subject was a very good one, but your inability to admit when you are wrong has sadly brought it to a screeching halt.

Still, at least we learned that we are both lazy gets. Turns out we have more in common than I suspected.

[martintheaker]

One two Tree as we say in Ireland

33 and a 1/3rd or Dirty Tree and a Turd

[Rowls]

You might as well call the French or Germans lazy for saying “ze” instead of “the”.

Except I specifically drew a distinction between a native English speaker and a foreign speaker not pronouncing /th/ properly!

Your example above actually proves my point - the only reason they make a /ze/ sound is because they're attempting the (for them, difficult) /th/ sound. They could easily pronounce "one-two-free" - all of these sounds exist in German and French.

In summary: A Frenchman say "ze" in place of "the" is attempting to make the sound. An Englishman saying "free" can't be bothered to make the sound.

Yes, there's all the factors you mentioned - distinction between RP, dialect, accent etc. but if laziness weren't a factor then why not abbreviate in other ways?

For example, the French abbreviate between the definite article and we invented the article "an" for the same purpose. Why? Because it's difficult to say "a orange" and it's difficult to say "la arbre" so we say "an oragne" and "l'arbre". "An" isn't even an abbreviation as such, it's an extra sound but it's easier to say because it's easier to form in the mouth.

Same with the example in the OP. "One-two-free" doesn't require the same effort to form inside the mouth as "one-two-three". There's a base level of laziness with all these decisions, whether made consciously or not and whether they've been assimilated into what is considered proper/formal language or not.

[Greenmile]

Except I specifically drew a distinction between a native English speaker and a foreign speaker not pronouncing /th/ properly!

Your example above actually proves my point - the only reason they make a /ze/ sound is because they're attempting the (for them, difficult) /th/ sound. They could easily pronounce "one-two-free" - all of these sounds exist in German and French.

In summary: A Frenchman say "ze" in place of "the" is attempting to make the sound. An Englishman saying "free" can't be bothered to make the sound.

Yes, there's all the factors you mentioned - distinction between RP, dialect, accent etc. but if laziness weren't a factor then why not abbreviate in other ways?

For example, the French abbreviate between the definite article and we invented the article "an" for the same purpose. Why? Because it's difficult to say "a orange" and it's difficult to say "la arbre" so we say "an oragne" and "l'arbre". "An" isn't even an abbreviation as such, it's an extra sound but it's easier to say because it's easier to form in the mouth.

Same with the example in the OP. "One-two-free" doesn't require the same effort to form inside the mouth as "one-two-three". There's a base level of laziness with all these decisions, whether made consciously or not and whether they've been assimilated into what is considered proper/formal language or not.

It would be “Le abre”. How long were you living in France?

Can’t be bothered with the rest of your post, especially when your first post on this thread admitted that the dialect version of bottle of water is no easier to say than the RP version. It’s quite clear that you look down on folk who don’t speak with a plum in their mouth.

[Rowls]

It’s quite clear that you look down on folk who don’t speak with a plum in their mouth.

It was fairly interesting for a while.

I'd like to thank you for not resorting to insults and accusations for a short period. It's probably a PB for you.

[Greenmile]

It was fairly interesting for a while.

I'd like to thank you for not resorting to insults and accusations for a short period. It's probably a PB for you.

ok snowflake

[Rowls]

ok snowflake

You can insult me and abuse me all you like. You can throw that nonsense at me all day, but it's very dull.

What you can't (notice that - "can't" as opposed to "cannot") do is debate sensibly and without resorting to insults. Why isn't it just enough to have a slightly different opinion?

Why do you have to insult me and throw ridiculous accusations?

[Antmass]

What about the div who interviews 'Vinny,' for the Clarets...
'So Vinny, you've been here for free mumfs now, what are your farts so far?'

[Greenmile]

You can insult me and abuse me all you like....

Thanks snowflake. I’ll bear that in mind next time you’re threatening to sue me.

[Rowls]

Thanks snowflake. I’ll bear that in mind next time you’re threatening to sue me.

You should bear it in mind all of the time, for the sake of decency.

[Greenmile]

You should bear it in mind all of the time, for the sake of decency.

That I can insult and abuse you as much as I like? Ok. Will do.

[yTib]

come on ladies, put the handbags away.

[Rowls]

That I can insult and abuse you as much as I like? Ok. Will do.

Well yeah, go ahead. I'm not going to hit the report button. It only undermines your own argument when you resort to that kind of thing.