Dambusters.

[Terrier]

Just been on tv that it's almost the 80th anniversary of this brave raid, watching this made me wonder if these men were the bravest of ww2, one plane circled 10 times under heavy fire to get the perfect drop!

Can any action in ww2 match the dambusters?

[2 Bee Holed]

Bruneval raid.
Operation Source
Several SAS raids in Eastern med.

[DAVETHEVICAR]

The Lancaster Bomber went from Waddington Bomber Command to Scampton as a fly past and saw it go overhead close to where I live around 7-20 tonight

[Tw@]

‘Where Eagles Dare’ film was pretty good!

[Tw@]

The Saint-Nazaire raid was pretty daring

[Rammy1968]

I think getting off a troop landing vehicle at Normandy under extreme fire and artillery fire was pretty brave, plus fighting the Japanese looked pretty horrifying. Anyone who has fought in a war is brave it must be scary as hell

[Corky]

Whilst the Dambuster raid was an amazing feat carried out by some incredibly courageous young men, ultimately it did not have the long term hoped for adverse affect on the Ruhr industries. And of course it was a tad controversial because of the mass drowning of civilians and some POWs.

Now the greatest battle of WW2 was undoubtedly the Battle for Kohima.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just been on tv that it's almost the 80th anniversary of this brave raid, watching this made me wonder if these men were the bravest of ww2, one plane circled 10 times under heavy fire to get the perfect drop!

Can any action in ww2 match the dambusters?

Where do you start?

Kohima has already been mentioned, but throw in Guadalcanal (read about the combat ranges of the two naval battles of Guadalcanal)

And there must be loads more - Hurtegen Forest in 1944, Stalingrad, Brest-Litvovsk in 1941

Whatever happens, war is absolutely the worse

[ElectroClaret]

Look up "The Cockleshell Heroes ".
A suicide mission if ever there was one, captured members executed by firing squad.
Managed to destroy or cripple 6 Nazi ships in Bordeaux harbour.

Knew the majority of them wouldn't come back.
Last survivor died in 2002.

True courage.

[Andingle]

I believe there is a Battle of Britain Memorial Flight going over Haworth & Sheffield this coming Saturday.

[Hipper]

133 aircrew took part in the raid, 53 died - 40% loss rate. That's on one raid

For Bomber Command as a whole, in the six years of the war, there were 125,000 aircrew, 57,205 were killed (46%), 8,403 wounded and 9.838 became PoWs, a total of 60%. Of course that was over numerous raids. Some were lost on their first raid, others completed their tour of thirty sorties. Guy Gibson had an extraordinary flying career flying some 170 sorties. I recommend his wartime published book, Enemy Coast Ahead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... casualties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bombe ... rld_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Gibson

This is a pretty interesting thread on survival rates:

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/li ... ews.47672/

It's said the RAF's Photographic Reconnaissance Unit (PRU) had a 48% death rate:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/christmas/2 ... eroes-ww2/

Their aircraft had no guns or armour protection, relying just on speed (going fast that is, although they may have used 'speed' too!) to survive.

Frankly, they were all pretty brave.

[Lancasterclaret]

133 aircrew took part in the raid, 53 died - 40% loss rate. That's on one raid

For Bomber Command as a whole, in the six years of the war, there were 125,000 aircrew, 57,205 were killed (46%), 8,403 wounded and 9.838 became PoWs, a total of 60%. Of course that was over numerous raids. Some were lost on their first raid, others completed their tour of thirty sorties. Guy Gibson had an extraordinary flying career flying some 170 sorties. I recommend his wartime published book, Enemy Coast Ahead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... casualties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bombe ... rld_War_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Gibson

This is a pretty interesting thread on survival rates:

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/li ... ews.47672/

It's said the RAF's Photographic Reconnaissance Unit (PRU) had a 48% death rate:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/christmas/2 ... eroes-ww2/

Their aircraft had no guns or armour protection, relying just on speed (going fast that is, although they may have used 'speed' too!) to survive.

Frankly, they were all pretty brave.

Think the only arm with a higher death rate was the U-boat crews

[Claret53]

Max Hastings recent book on it - Chastise - is well worth a read. It's a very balanced account.

[FigSlice]

Look up "The Cockleshell Heroes ".
A suicide mission if ever there was one, captured members executed by firing squad.
Managed to destroy or cripple 6 Nazi ships in Bordeaux harbour.

Knew the majority of them wouldn't come back.
Last survivor died in 2002.

True courage.

My grandma’s cousin was a RN frogman in WW2, one of the first to arrive on the Normandy beaches on D Day. My mother said he was one of the Cockleshell Heroes as well, but never looked to see if that was true.

[Clarets4me]

My grandma’s cousin was a RN frogman in WW2, one of the first to arrive on the Normandy beaches on D Day. My mother said he was one of the Cockleshell Heroes as well, but never looked to see if that was true.

These were the 12 men who took part in " Operation Frankton ", between 7-12th December 1942 ...

Major H.G. " Blondie "Hasler, Marine Bill Sparks, Corporal Albert Laver, Marine William Mills, Corporal George Sheard, Marine David Moffatt, Lieutenant John Mackinnon, Marine James Conway, Sergeant Sam Wallace, Marine Robert Ewart, Marine W. A. Ellery, Marine E. Fisher. A thirteenth man was taken as a reserve, Marine Norman Colley.

Ellery and Fisher's Kayak was damaged whilst attempting to launch, so only 5 Kayaks took part. Of the ten men, six were shot under the infamous " Commando Order " from Hitler, Sheard & Moffatt died by Hypothermia, and only Hasler & Sparks escaped to Spain and from there home to England.

If your Grandmother's cousin is not among those names, he could well have been part of the 36 strong Royal Marines Boom Patrol Attachment, from which these 12 men were selected. Either way, he was an extremely brave man. Royal Navy frogmen were sent ashore under the cover of night weeks before D-Day to check defences and get core samples from the beaches, to calculate how tanks, jeeps etc would fare during D-Day and after ...

Hope this helps ...

[Clarets4me]

The Saint-Nazaire raid was pretty daring

Jeremy Clarkson made an excellent documentary on the Saint-Nazaire raid ...

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Zd0Oy8JyQ

[Croydon Claret]

I had the fortune to fly in the Canadian Lancaster a few years ago.
It's a magnificent aircraft dedicated to the memory of VC winner Andrew Mynarsky. He suffered fatal burns whilst trying to rescue the tail gunner who was unable to evacuate himself from the stricken aircraft. The tailgunner survived, thanks to Mynarsky's actions, but Mynarsky succumbed to his burns

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mynarski

[BennyD]

Gibson thought he was destined to die on the raid after his black Lab ( N*gger) was killed just outside the main gate of Scampton while the final briefing was taking place. He had been with Gibson all through the war and was the Squadron mascot. Consequently, he did as much as he possibly could to make sure the raid was a success before he was killed but, much to his surprise, he survived and got a VC. Later in the war Mickey Martin, one of the Dambusters, took Gibson up in a Mosquito and Gibson was impressed. He was so impressed, he convinced ‘Bomber’ Harris to let him fly one last combat sortie as ‘Master Bomber’. Sadly, he was shot down and killed near Steenbergen in Holland on the way home. Unbelievably, the Lancaster he flew on the raid ED932 (AJ-G) was unceremoniously scrapped after the war. Most of the raid survivors wer killed later in the war, including all of Gibson’s crew.

[Croydon Claret]

Gibson thought he was destined to die on the raid after his black Lab ( N*gger) was killed just outside the main gate of Scampton while the final briefing was taking place. He had been with Gibson all through the war and was the Squadron mascot. Consequently, he did as much as he possibly could to make sure the raid was a success before he was killed but, much to his surprise, he survived and got a VC. Later in the war Mickey Martin, one of the Dambusters, took Gibson up in a Mosquito and Gibson was impressed. He was so impressed, he convinced ‘Bomber’ Harris to let him fly one last combat sortie as ‘Master Bomber’. Sadly, he was shot down and killed near Steenbergen in Holland on the way home. Unbelievably, the Lancaster he flew on the raid ED932 (AJ-G) was unceremoniously scrapped after the war. Most of the raid survivors wer killed later in the war, including all of Gibson’s crew.

I heard a variation of the tale regarding his demise.

The story goes that the Mosquito he was flying was a Canadian version and the fuel control levers were in a different position to where he would have expected them to be. Somebody tried to inform him of the difference but his ears were closed.

This theory suggested that the aircraft may have come down as Gibson was unable to switch between tanks and ran out of fuel.

Don't know which version is true

[FigSlice]

These were the 12 men who took part in " Operation Frankton ", between 7-12th December 1942 ...

Major H.G. " Blondie "Hasler, Marine Bill Sparks, Corporal Albert Laver, Marine William Mills, Corporal George Sheard, Marine David Moffatt, Lieutenant John Mackinnon, Marine James Conway, Sergeant Sam Wallace, Marine Robert Ewart, Marine W. A. Ellery, Marine E. Fisher. A thirteenth man was taken as a reserve, Marine Norman Colley.

Ellery and Fisher's Kayak was damaged whilst attempting to launch, so only 5 Kayaks took part. Of the ten men, six were shot under the infamous " Commando Order " from Hitler, Sheard & Moffatt died by Hypothermia, and only Hasler & Sparks escaped to Spain and from there home to England.

If your Grandmother's cousin is not among those names, he could well have been part of the 36 strong Royal Marines Boom Patrol Attachment, from which these 12 men were selected. Either way, he was an extremely brave man. Royal Navy frogmen were sent ashore under the cover of night weeks before D-Day to check defences and get core samples from the beaches, to calculate how tanks, jeeps etc would fare during D-Day and after ...

Hope this helps ...

Yes it does, although another family anecdote has been proved to be not quite the truth! He was Royal Navy VR rather than Royal Marines unless there was secondment. But he was definitely one of the first at the D-Day landings, aged only23 or 24 and was awarded the DSC.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not sure he was on a one off flight when he died either to be perfectly honest

He'd certainly flown some missions before his death

[ClaretWot4]

If we are talking heroes, what about Viollette Szabo, SOE operative ,captured ,tortured and executed by the SS.

And of course there were many more brave souls met the same fate.

Really brave people.

[Acting Claret]

If we are talking heroes, what about Viollette Szabo, SOE operative ,captured ,tortured and executed by the SS.

And of course there were many more brave souls met the same fate.

Really brave people.

She lived on Burnley Rd, Stockwell. There’s a blue plaque on her old house.

[BennyD]

I heard a variation of the tale regarding his demise.

The story goes that the Mosquito he was flying was a Canadian version and the fuel control levers were in a different position to where he would have expected them to be. Somebody tried to inform him of the difference but his ears were closed.

This theory suggested that the aircraft may have come down as Gibson was unable to switch between tanks and ran out of fuel.

Don't know which version is true

Apparently, witnesses said that the aircraft appeared to be on fire as it crashed. There is also a theory that he was short down by a Lancaster as he tried to join the bomber stream home. A rear gunner claimed a ‘probable’ but post war research has shown the Luftwaffe didn’t lose any aircraft that night. ‘Blue on blue’ is nothing new; it now appears Douglas Bader was shot down by a fellow Spitfire pilot.

[BennyD]

Yes it does, although another family anecdote has been proved to be not quite the truth! He was Royal Navy VR rather than Royal Marines unless there was secondment. But he was definitely one of the first at the D-Day landings, aged only23 or 24 and was awarded the DSC.

In which case he must have been an officer.

[Vintage Claret]

Always had a bit of a fascination about the Dambusters from being a child and first seeing the film.

When I was a kid we lived just outside Dortmund from 1967-1971 as my dad was stationed there and I recall us visiting the Mohne, Eder and Sorpe dams and surrounding parklands on more than one occasion on day trips out.

Now I'm retired one of my bucket list things to do was to visit the RAF heritage museum at RAF Scampton but sadly it looks like I've missed the boat as apparently it's now closed and The Government have announced plans for it to be used as accomodation for asylum seekers.

[DAVETHEVICAR]

There is a big row going on about the use of Scampton for Asylum seekers
The Red Arrows are now based at Waddington and there is the Bomber Control Centre near Waddington which is a great place to visit

[FigSlice]

In which case he must have been an officer.

Correct! He was a Lieutenant.

[Clovius Boofus]

This isn't a Dambusters link, but some of you might find it interesting, especially the bit about B-29 computerised gunsights.

https://buttondown.email/grugq/archive/ ... cers-5593/

[bobinho]

The Lancaster bomber, along with the Supermarine Spitfire and the Concorde, are the three most beautiful flying things ever made by man.

So very many brave actions during WW2, many of which have been listed above.

Visited the area myself whilst serving in Germany, you can still see the outline of the dam repairs.