O/T Universal Basic Income

[Fretters]

A trial of this is about to take place in the North East and North London.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... in-england

It's an interesting one. You can see the logic in that it could practically wipe out poverty, reducing the strain on public services, the NHS being the big one. Or would it just push prices even higher as folk have more to spend?

Would millions give up work, causing a worker shortage? We'd have over £3k coming into our household which would make life so much easier, but I think we'd still work so we could enjoy life, spending the extra on the kids, away games, holidays etc. So, in that sense, it could get the economy booming if the majority think like me.

It'll be fascinating to see the outcome, but 30 people isn't a huge sample.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

With the advent of tech and AI, more and more jobs will become redundant, so we either do away with money or we find an alternative

It will most likely require a huge overhaul of our tax system though, to prevent companies funnelling transactions via places like Ireland, Luxembourg, Virgin Islands etc, something I can't see happening.

I can see the merits of UBI, so it's going to be interesting to see how it goes.

[RVclaret]

Absolute joke and almost unbelievable they are even thinking about this when inflation is already at its highest in 40 years.

[daveisaclaret]

The future in developed countries will include UBI.

The problem we will have in this country is that alongside it there needs to be watertight protections against landlords, energy companies so on simply taking whatever amount extra from those less well off and there will never be an appetite among our political class for anything remotely approaching what is needed.

[aclaretinstevenage]

£1600 per month for a family with two kids will go further in Jarrow than it will in East Finchley so I'm not sure a flat rate will be the solution.

It will be interesting to see the actual results if it goes ahead.

[ArmchairDetective]

Absolute joke and almost unbelievable they are even thinking about this when inflation is already at its highest in 40 years.

I quickly read the article yesterday or the day before so I may be misremembering, but I think the trial involved something like 30 people which wouldn't make any difference to the national economy. But if you're referring to the idea of implementing this on a larger scale (which I think is way off) then I understand your concern.

[claret2018]

It’s an interesting one. We should absolutely be looking to do this as more and more work becomes automated.

I suspect we’ll need to see it work on a large scale in other countries before convincing the British public though. We have a strange mentality where we don’t like seeing people “getting something for nothing”.

[Boss Hogg]

Paying less tax becomes more and more attractive. The amount of tax payer money we waste in this country is mind boggling. Free handouts to see how it affects mental health. What a joke.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

£1600 per month for a family with two kids will go further in Jarrow than it will in East Finchley so I'm not sure a flat rate will be the solution.

It will be interesting to see the actual results if it goes ahead.

This may be one reason for the trial, because jobs inside the M25 tend to pay more than outside it.
The RAC pay difference is about £5k I think depending on where you live.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think its very significant that its being trialed, especially under a Tory Govt

Everything I've read about it suggests its a good idea, but I'd want to wait to see how it works out in practice

[Rowls]

The first country daft enough to implement this on a large scale basis will quickly go the way of Venezuela. It's an even worse idea than Communism. The fact that this is be trialled under a Conservative government shows that we don't have a Conservative government.

[Lancasterclaret]

The first country daft enough to implement this on a large scale basis will quickly go the way of Venezuela. It's an even worse idea than Communism. The fact that this is be trialled under a Conservative government shows that we don't have a Conservative government.

Not like you to go all Jakubclaret Rowls

[Lancasterclaret]

I would say is that continuing like we are doing isn't going to work with the speed of change of tech and how it simplifies a hell of a lot of jobs

If anyone has a better idea other than ranting about hand outs or Venezuela then I'm all ears

[Mattster]

Haven't done much reading into it but I assume employers would look to cut pay to some extent? Would we see a more level pay across all jobs since who would take any really boring, or unpleasant low skill/pay job?

Would also be interested in what would happen to pensions? Would these be raided in part? Would people even bother paying into one?

What about people who are self employed, small business owners etc? Would it lead to a boom in self employment and entrepreneurship with people having a safety net and only having to worry about breaking even?

I should probably read up on it more tbf.

[PlasticClaret]

We're a rich enough country that people shouldn't have to work purely for survival. The fact that we allow that kind of leverage to exist is one of the reasons wages are low while productivity has skyrocketed, and is surely a huge factor contributing to the various mental health crises in the developed world.

Work should be about creating abundance for oneself, not staving off death. We're not hunter gatherers any more and we don't have to exist in a darwinist economy, so why do we choose to?

This £1600 figure is a trial. Obviously any UBI isn't going to be so generous right off the bat, certainly not here, but we need to figure out how we're going to tackle poverty and inequality in this country and the current way of managing our economy has utterly failed and I don't see any ideas coming from the capitalists aside from "people just need to not be lazy".

Capitalism as it stands is failing. Again. The last time it failed we ended up with fascism poking its turtles-head out for a bit, and we're seeing that start to happen again now too. Either we stop it by shoring up capitalism with some actual socialism, or we risk a complete failure of capitalism again, and it took a lot of enforced socialism to clean up that mess last time. I don't want that to happen to us.

[Burnley Ace]

The first country daft enough to implement this on a large scale basis will quickly go the way of Venezuela. It's an even worse idea than Communism. The fact that this is be trialled under a Conservative government shows that we don't have a Conservative government.

There are too many links and articles, google Finland UBI.

[Fenwick]

Drugs, beer and fags

[PlasticClaret]

Haven't done much reading into it but I assume employers would look to cut pay to some extent? Would we see a more level pay across all jobs since who would take any really boring, or unpleasant low skill/pay job?

Would also be interested in what would happen to pensions? Would these be raided in part? Would people even bother paying into one?

What about people who are self employed, small business owners etc? Would it lead to a boom in self employment and entrepreneurship with people having a safety net and only having to worry about breaking even?

I should probably read up on it more tbf.

I think wage rates would go up if people aren't being forced to accept the first low-paid job and threatened with homelessness and hunger if they ever quit a job without having a replacement lined up immediately. Employers will be forced to value their workers more too since mistreatment would be more likely to lead to staff quitting.

So much of our current way of life is based on capital exerting the leverage of homelessness and starvation on people and a UBI would make that much, much less effective. And without such effective leverage keeping wages down i expect they will increase.

[Hipper]

Didn't we have a discussion on this before - perhaps during Covid?

I recall from that that the Swiss had rejected the idea:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... xist-dream

It would not help the issue of illegal immigrants. This country would be even more attractive.

I can't see it helping in the problem areas of employment - vegetable pickers etc., or NHS. It would surely be better to target those rather then just everyone.

And the big question. Who pays for it? A miniscule trial won't help us understand the macro economic consequences.

[summitclaret]

I had to check it wasn't 1st April when I read this.

The day people don't have an incentive to get up in the morning and do something useful and exercise their body and brains, would be the beginning of the end for mankind.

How the hell would wholesale free giveaways be paid for?

[Fretters]

How the hell would wholesale free giveaways be paid for?

It's a good question. The current benefits system (which I assume would be replaced by UBI) costs around £231 billion, whereas giving every adult in the UK £1600 would cost around £864 billion. Maybe reduced pressure on the NHS and other services plugs the gap?

This is all dependent on people still choosing to work and pay their taxes, obviously.

[quoonbeatz]

An excellent idea in principle but it needs to be properly thought through and managed. You only really need to look at the type of people who are dead against it to know its a positive proposal.

[JohnMcGreal]

I used to be in favour of exploring new ways to improve people's living standards, but after reading the thread about how well people can live for just a few pence I'm no longer interested.

Who needs UBI when you've got a tin of tuna, some sausages and a tin of mushroom soup?

We're already in paradise.

[Boss Hogg]

I used to be in favour of exploring new ways to improve people's living standards, but after reading the thread about how well people can live for just a few pence I'm no longer interested.

Who needs UBI when you've got a tin of tuna, some sausages and a tin of mushroom soup?

We're already in paradise.

[keith1879]

An excellent idea in principle but it needs to be properly thought through and managed. You only really need to look at the type of people who are dead against it to know its a positive proposal.

Pretty much my thoughts!

[IanMcL]

If AI eventually costs millions of jobs, then the taxes must come from the companies, not the people.

Why should there be haves and have nots?

[CoolClaret]

The ludites will be dead against it but if we have AI/Automation relaxing jobs then we have to ask what is the question of us actually being here?

Surely it’s to improve the human condition and to focus on what makes us human and the expression we can make there - with art/music etc - to live a life of meaning, not necessarily slaving away as factory fodder.

It will of course take education and a culture shift, but I’m more optimistic than those simply denouncing it as ‘more money for fags and booze’

No doubt some legacy media will role out some ‘economists’ to denounce it, citing inflation and what not - but you just take one look at the supposed fiscally sound tickle down system and realise that really doesn’t work

[CoolClaret]

If AI eventually costs millions of jobs, then the taxes must come from the companies, not the people.

Why should there be haves and have nots?

There shouldn’t.

No society on earth that has that system produces excellence.

Brilliance comes in all walks of life- to have elitism and small circles of wealth is not only unethical but also very short sited

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the idea is to eliminate the have nots, and the have loads have to deal with only having loads, rather than loads and loads

[CoolClaret]

Paying less tax becomes more and more attractive. The amount of tax payer money we waste in this country is mind boggling. Free handouts to see how it affects mental health. What a joke.

Then you should see how much tax the rich avoid paying driving inequality apart.

Your grievance shouldn’t be against those with cock all - it should be against those that own the assets & get away with using the country for its infrastructure without paying to maintain/improve it

[Boss Hogg]

Taxpayer money is wasted/misdirected whoever is paying the tax. Housing economic immigrants in hotels whilst we already have homeless citizens on our streets is an example of this. Free handouts or free income encourages idleness whilst others are slogging all hours to pay for it. I’m making a conscious effort to pay less and less tax as a result.

[helmclaret]

I had to check it wasn't 1st April when I read this.

The day people don't have an incentive to get up in the morning and do something useful and exercise their body and brains, would be the beginning of the end for mankind.

How the hell would wholesale free giveaways be paid for?

So you can only have a productive life if you are working and getting paid for something?

[Rowls]

The worst part of me hopes a medium sized country gives it a full go so we can see how quickly it collapses.

But the better part of me knows that it'll only with people claiming they "didn't do it properly" and that the idea is still fundamentally sound.

It's the worst idea to gain traction since Communism.

[fidelcastro]

It's a good question. The current benefits system (which I assume would be replaced by UBI) costs around £231 billion, whereas giving every adult in the UK £1600 would cost around £864 billion. Maybe reduced pressure on the NHS and other services plugs the gap?

This is all dependent on people still choosing to work and pay their taxes, obviously.

But plenty of people want or need more than £1600 per month, so that 864 billion figure is redundant, as those people would still continue to work as they are now.

[Boss Hogg]

So you can only have a productive life if you are working and getting paid for something?

Don’t think that is what is meant here. If you have retired and say doing volunteer work or raising funds for charity etc that is being productive in a positive way. It’s not just about earning / being paid but it’s about paying out publicly funded money to all and sundry.

[CoolClaret]

Taxpayer money is wasted/misdirected whoever is paying the tax. Housing economic immigrants in hotels whilst we already have homeless citizens on our streets is an example of this. Free handouts or free income encourages idleness whilst others are slogging all hours to pay for it. I’m making a conscious effort to pay less and less tax as a result.

Completely pales in comparison with what the Amazons & Co get away with over here - that’s where you should direct your anger to

Not to mention UBI would probably combat the homeless problem quite effectively

[JohnMcGreal]

The worst part of me hopes a medium sized country gives it a full go so we can see how quickly it collapses.

But the better part of me knows that it'll only with people claiming they "didn't do it properly" and that the idea is still fundamentally sound.

It's the worst idea to gain traction since Communism.

Communism began to gain traction around 1917.

Are you absolutely sure there have been no ideas worse than a Universal Basic Income between now and then?

[Taffy on the wing]

It’s an interesting one. We should absolutely be looking to do this as more and more work becomes automated.

I suspect we’ll need to see it work on a large scale in other countries before convincing the British public though. We have a strange mentality where we don’t like seeing people “getting something for nothing”.

Understatement of the year!

[CoolClaret]

Communism began to gain traction around 1917.

Are you absolutely sure there have been no ideas worse than a Universal Basic Income between now and then?

It’s the school of Conservative think, anything not perpetuating class & trickle down economics must equal communism

Meanwhile Rowls (allegedly) enjoys the fruits of a Republic that supports left/left of centre ideals for all its people, yet he argues/ pushes for a right/right of centre Kingdom

Rather staggering

[Taffy on the wing]

The first country daft enough to implement this on a large scale basis will quickly go the way of Venezuela. It's an even worse idea than Communism. The fact that this is be trialled under a Conservative government shows that we don't have a Conservative government.

[Bordeauxclaret]

The worst part of me hopes a medium sized country gives it a full go so we can see how quickly it collapses.

But the better part of me knows that it'll only with people claiming they "didn't do it properly" and that the idea is still fundamentally sound.

Can we please stick to the original topic. No need to start talking about Brexit again.

[summitclaret]

Don’t think that is what is meant here. If you have retired and say doing volunteer work or raising funds for charity etc that is being productive in a positive way. It’s not just about earning / being paid but it’s about paying out publicly funded money to all and sundry.

Correct. I chose my words carefully, but people read into things that suit their agenda.

[CoolClaret]

Can we please stick to the original topic. No need to start talking about Brexit again.

[Rowls]

Communism began to gain traction around 1917.

Are you absolutely sure there have been no ideas worse than a Universal Basic Income between now and then?

It was much before 1917 that Communism gained traction.

Yes, I'm convinced it's the worst idea to gain traction since then.

If I have a bad idea, like the time I thought I'd look good in combat trousers, the only person to suffer is me. But if a country has a bad idea, like when Venezuela elected Hugo Chavez, then there's a lot more at stake.

Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in South America. Now it's a basket case and its people have suffered starvation, famine, conflict, anarchy, crime etc and are desperate to flee the country.

So when I see apparently sensible countries like ourselves even considering an idea like this then, yes, it's the worst idea since Communism. It has the potential to wreck any country that goes whole-heartedly into it.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

"worst idea since communism"

*Germany enters the chat*

[Rowls]

"worst idea since communism"

*Germany enters the chat*

What on earth does that mean??

[claretonthecoast1882]

The worst part of me hopes a medium sized country gives it a full go so we can see how quickly it collapses.

But the better part of me knows that it'll only with people claiming they "didn't do it properly" and that the idea is still fundamentally sound.

It's the worst idea to gain traction since Communism.

When you say worst decision you do realise that Police Academy 2 was commissioned then 3 and 4 ?

[JohnMcGreal]

It was much before 1917 that Communism gained traction.

Yes, I'm convinced it's the worst idea to gain traction since then.

If I have a bad idea, like the time I thought I'd look good in combat trousers, the only person to suffer is me. But if a country has a bad idea, like when Venezuela elected Hugo Chavez, then there's a lot more at stake.

Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in South America. Now it's a basket case and its people have suffered starvation, famine, conflict, anarchy, crime etc and are desperate to flee the country.

So when I see apparently sensible countries like ourselves even considering an idea like this then, yes, it's the worst idea since Communism. It has the potential to wreck any country that goes whole-heartedly into it.

Are you absolutely certain there were no worse ideas between now and 1917? No ideas that went quite mainstream in a few countries around the 1920s and 1930s, perhaps?

Would you like to phone a friend?

[Lancasterclaret]

It was much before 1917 that Communism gained traction.

Yes, I'm convinced it's the worst idea to gain traction since then.

If I have a bad idea, like the time I thought I'd look good in combat trousers, the only person to suffer is me. But if a country has a bad idea, like when Venezuela elected Hugo Chavez, then there's a lot more at stake.

Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in South America. Now it's a basket case and its people have suffered starvation, famine, conflict, anarchy, crime etc and are desperate to flee the country.

So when I see apparently sensible countries like ourselves even considering an idea like this then, yes, it's the worst idea since Communism. It has the potential to wreck any country that goes whole-heartedly into it.

Tell me you've not read anything on UBI without telling me you've not read anything on UBI

[Lancasterclaret]

It was much before 1917 that Communism gained traction.

Yes, I'm convinced it's the worst idea to gain traction since then.

If I have a bad idea, like the time I thought I'd look good in combat trousers, the only person to suffer is me. But if a country has a bad idea, like when Venezuela elected Hugo Chavez, then there's a lot more at stake.

Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous countries in South America. Now it's a basket case and its people have suffered starvation, famine, conflict, anarchy, crime etc and are desperate to flee the country.

So when I see apparently sensible countries like ourselves even considering an idea like this then, yes, it's the worst idea since Communism. It has the potential to wreck any country that goes whole-heartedly into it.

Whats the worse thing since communism in 1917?

You said - Hugo Chavez

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