France riots

[Damo]

The fact that stuff being parroted is utter bilge is a concern to anyone who gives a s**t about democracy one would think

It's rather ironic that you mention democracy in a discussion about things not being censored on twitter.
Are you reading things you don't like mate?

[Lancasterclaret]

It's rather ironic that you mention democracy in a discussion about things not being censored on twitter.
Are you reading things you don't like mate?

It doesn't matter if I like them or not, there were lots of things on twitter I didn't like before!

Its the fact that they aren't true is the problem

There is nothing wrong with different opinions

Different opinions presented as "facts" and allowed to stay when its disinformation is wrong on every level, and its a real danger

[Rowls]

Is it a clash of cultures? The French have a long history of civil disobedience, protest and disorder. They even had a revolution a few hundred years ago.

This latest episode just seems very 'French' to me.

Yes, these riots have a distinct racial aspect to them.

The French do indeed enjoy a good barny (like the yellow vest movement) but these particular riots are concentrated around Arab areas.

[Rowls]

Yup, you can live amazingly on handouts apparently

The French do indeed have a massively generous unemployment system.

Get made redundant and you can claim around 80% of your salary for 12 months, then 50% for another 6 months.

However, here's the catch - you need to have paid in (ie. Paid taxes) in order to qualify.

Whereas immigrants to the UK are housed in hotels, in France they are left undocumented and are visible sleeping rough in large numbers in most large towns and cities.

[Clarets4me]

Shall I take it that’s a policy you’d advocate here then? Shoot any young driver who doesn’t stop for the police?

Don't be ridiculous ... I'm just pointing out that the " story " could have been altogether different ..
Sadly he's not the first, nor will he be the last young man to lose his life due to his own recklessness and poor policing ...

[RMutt]

Don't be ridiculous ... I'm just pointing out that the " story " could have been altogether different ..
Sadly he's not the first, nor will he be the last young man to lose his life due to his own recklessness and poor policing ...

Well if you’re not saying that then there’s no point to your whole statement. Of course ‘stories’ can always have different outcomes.

[Burnleyareback2]

In about an hours time I plan to share with my wife the surprise trip to Paris that we are going on tomorrow.

I’m sure she will be delighted.

[Volvoclaret]

Any more popcorn available Bosscat?

[Lancasterclaret]

I didn’t say that, I am saying most expect opportunities to be handed to them on a plate. Life just isn’t like that.

I look my mates as an example half have ended up struggling and the other half that worked away and took the chances offered have done well. We openly discuss it and the general consensus is they made silly decisions when they were kids

"Most" doing an awful lot of heavy lifting there tbf

[Clarets4me]

Well if you’re not saying that then there’s no point to your whole statement. Of course ‘stories’ can always have different outcomes.

The object of the post was to point out the facts as we know them, the final paragraph is perhaps a reason why the officer should have put a short burst into both back tyres ...

[TsarBomba]

However, there's a very worrying increase in the use of extreme violence and guns on the part of the police.

I can’t speak for France, but violence within society has exploded within the past 3-5 years. I’ve easily had more fights in the past 3-5 years than the pervious 12.

Pretty much every one of our ‘immediate’ grade call is either violence with weapons or mental health in possession of a knife with self harm. Guns are far more prevalent in France than here, so I imagine there will be a similar increase in the use of guns in the commission of offences in France.

This obviously means the use of force being used by Police has to dramatically increase to overcome the threat posed. And it is very easy and lazy for an observer, who has never had to traverse the underbelly of society, to criticise on something they know nothing about.

Clearly something has gone very wrong here, and it is stoking the flames of division to immediately label the police officer as racist.

A tragic incident all round, and hopefully calm can be restored as soon as possible.

[Spiral]

I'd argue a traffic stop is not exactly the same thing as 'traversing the underbelly of society', and if policing an environment in general feels like traversing the underbelly of society, tooling up the police will only foster a sense of adversity between the police and policed. A more community based policing approach like we do here in the UK is what's needed wherever the police are at war with a populace. This seems to have escalated because Judge Dredd decided shooting someone is a proportional response to a vehicular crime being committed. Lad who died didn't exactly help himself, such is the nature of criminals, but that's beside the point when a traffic stop results in a dead body. Seems everyone fked up here: the dead bloke, the police, the opportunistic rioters, Macron. Everyone is just aggressively posturing in their own way.

[Spiral]

This point I make below can be applied broadly, not only to what's happening in France.

While the complicated racial politics of France is very relevant to this shooting and it being the boiling point for that to all spill over into physical violence, anyone making a point of the lad's ethnically Algerian/Moroccan descent to make a comment that begins and ends with grumbling about culture clashes must realise that for entirely pragmatic purposes you've got to tread very carefully how this point is made, and even what the point is that you're making, because what gets forgotten in any comment about culture clashes is that the lad was French born and raised, and this mindset of him being an outsider of sorts due to his heritage, when played out into the world at large contributes to the alienation of groups of people, which leads them at first to disengage with a wider civil society, then to push back when they feel pushed. If the majority of society tells you you are $cum, it's human nature to find a community, a tribe if you will, in which you feel safe and respected.

People need to resist their base impulses in order to more clearly see the psychology of this playing out, but people often take such news events as opportunities to affirm their prejudices because it makes them feel good about themselves. They are not interested in solutions to problems, but rather the rush of adversary and the sense of self-satisfaction of telling themselves: me good; them bad. You want solutions? Understand how people's minds work. You want to know how people's minds work? You must first recognise they are human beings and not lesser animals. This isn't some mushy kumbaya shite, it's the basis of practical solutions.

Even a generic statement about culture clashes is loaded with the assumption that one culture is superior to the other, and the misunderstanding (wilfully or ignorantly) that leads to conflict — the cloudy perception at the heart of this — is the way in which, for lack of a better term, people belonging to a so-called 'native culture' have a base, tribal propensity to define a so-called 'outsider culture' by its criminal elements. This is a person's primitive brain on the lookout for threats, but the illness afflicting this psychology is in how the higher part of the brain actively seeks out threats for the stimulation it produces. In a sentence, people love to hate. In the mind of a so-called 'native' (again, for lack of a better term, but I think people understand what I mean by that), the culture of the 'outsider' is associated with criminality, delinquency, immorality, while the majority of people belonging to that culture would naturally associate their culture with more positive things. As such, an individual from immigrant descent, even one born and raised in the country they reside, may have negative values projected onto them by dint of birth and will be treated harshly for it. This fosters alienation, which leads to disregard of, and disrespect for the people belonging to the 'tribe' treating them like $cum. Couple that with economic hardship and the notion of personal responsibility loses its stability as a concept, because a criminal, rightly or wrongly, sees their behaviour as them being responsible to themselves and their community against one they were born into which sees them as less worthy of respect and dignity, even life.

[Damo]

It doesn't matter if I like them or not, there were lots of things on twitter I didn't like before!

Its the fact that they aren't true is the problem

There is nothing wrong with different opinions

Different opinions presented as "facts" and allowed to stay when its disinformation is wrong on every level, and its a real danger

Are you appointing yourself as the arbiter of truth and facts now pal?
Or should we leave that sort of thing for the C.I.A to decide?

[Gaia]

It's a very similar scenario to the UK 2011 riots after Mark Duggan was shot.
On 4 August 2011, Mark Duggan was shot and killed by police in Tottenham, north London, sparking the largest civil unrest the UK has seen for a generation. The disturbance quickly spread and for five nights, London, Birmingham, and other major cities in England were engulfed by fire and violence.

[Lancasterclaret]

Are you appointing yourself as the arbiter of truth and facts now pal?
Or should we leave that sort of thing for the C.I.A to decide?

Facts are facts Damo

Just because a lot of people don't like that doesn't change that

Opinions are bound to be different, and there is no issue with that

People can think its impossible to be a man these days without getting arrested or whatever and that is perfectly fine (weird, but fine)

There are people with paid blue ticks being able (for example) show a picture of a burning car from a religious riot in India a couple of years ago, label it a race riot in France from yesterday, and no one in charge of twitter is saying "Hang on, that is false news and deliberate misinformation"

That is a real issue, whether you like it or not

[Damo]

Facts are facts Damo

Just because a lot of people don't like that doesn't change that

Opinions are bound to be different, and there is no issue with that

People can think its impossible to be a man these days without getting arrested or whatever and that is perfectly fine (weird, but fine)

There are people with paid blue ticks being able (for example) show a picture of a burning car from a religious riot in India a couple of years ago, label it a race riot in France from yesterday, and no one in charge of twitter is saying "Hang on, that is false news and deliberate misinformation"

That is a real issue, whether you like it or not

Where has anyone posted that its Impossible to be a man these days without being arrested?
I see what you are getting at, and it's fine that you want men to be able to share female only spaces. They are opinions and easy to debate.
Back to the topic. You are correct. Someone can post an old picture of someone commiting at terrorist attack somewhere and pass it off as something going on currently.
Someone else can then highlight that its an old picture and we can all agree that it the original post was nonsense.
It's a great system.
It's better than. The old one, where someone can post something labeled as a fact and some moderator decides if it can be countered or not.
It takes off the blinkers for anyone with the ability to think for themselves

[Rick_Muller]

Ummm no sh!t Sherlock

IMG_6799.jpeg (297.32 KiB) Viewed 2689 times

[Lancasterclaret]

Where has anyone posted that its Impossible to be a man these days without being arrested?
I see what you are getting at, and it's fine that you want men to be able to share female only spaces. They are opinions and easy to debate.
Back to the topic. You are correct. Someone can post an old picture of someone commiting at terrorist attack somewhere and pass it off as something going on currently.
Someone else can then highlight that its an old picture and we can all agree that it the original post was nonsense.
It's a great system.
It's better than. The old one, where someone can post something labeled as a fact and some moderator decides if it can be countered or not.
It takes off the blinkers for anyone with the ability to think for themselves

Facts are facts though

Trump is a liar, Johnson is a liar, Keir Starmer is boring, Nazis are bad, Russia is an authoritarian state, Blackburn Rovers won the Premier League a very long time ago etc etc

People are now posted non-facts and passing it off as truth because they have paid $7 a month, and twitter amplifies their "fact" so more people see it

Its genius and an absolute haven for trolls, bots (who you can no longer report under the new regime), fantasists, and people who think the right to free speech means you can say whatever you like about anyone at anytime, regardless of whether it is true or not (and that applies to the left and right)

The crucial difference for me is that if I'm presented with facts that can by verified by numerous reliable sources, then I take that as "fact" and it was a good way of sharing and learning information

What Musk has done is change the best fact sharing and open source information site on the planet to something which is completely opposite to that, and about as reliable as the Russian or Chinese versions

It will kill it, and cost Musk billions and (more importantly) his reputation as a businessman

[Gaia]

Reading about this estate in Marseille is an eye opener.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... dApp_Other

[Damo]

Facts are facts though

Trump is a liar, Johnson is a liar, Keir Starmer is boring, Nazis are bad, Russia is an authoritarian state, Blackburn Rovers won the Premier League a very long time ago etc etc

People are now posted non-facts and passing it off as truth because they have paid $7 a month, and twitter amplifies their "fact" so more people see it

Its genius and an absolute haven for trolls, bots (who you can no longer report under the new regime), fantasists, and people who think the right to free speech means you can say whatever you like about anyone at anytime, regardless of whether it is true or not (and that applies to the left and right)

The crucial difference for me is that if I'm presented with facts that can by verified by numerous reliable sources, then I take that as "fact" and it was a good way of sharing and learning information

What Musk has done is change the best fact sharing and open source information site on the planet to something which is completely opposite to that, and about as reliable as the Russian or Chinese versions

It will kill it, and cost Musk billions and (more importantly) his reputation as a businessman

I'm personally happy that I can read the musings of someone who pays $7 per month and treat it with a fair amount of scepticism, as opposed to believing everything I read posted by someone who the puppet masters at twitter tell me to believe when I'm looking to form an opinion on something that's happening hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Not that I ever did anything on the contrary, but then I'm not the one complaining about blue ticks on twitter

[Loyalclaret]

Reading about this estate in Marseille is an eye opener.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... dApp_Other

In 2016 about 6 of us travelled by coach from Nimes to Marseille for the Russia game. Looking at the area detailed in the article, we were dropped off pretty close, as we walked down the street it was clear we weren't in the centre, near anyone or anything touristy. A police car pulled up and asked "what are you doing around here" it took us a while to get out the area and it began to feel like we'd over stayed our welcome

We stayed in the port of the city for four days, it was melting pot the whole time, not helped by the English or Russian fans. The locals were the worst.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm personally happy that I can read the musings of someone who pays $7 per month and treat it with a fair amount of scepticism, as opposed to believing everything I read posted by someone who the puppet masters at twitter tell me to believe when I'm looking to form an opinion on something that's happening hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Not that I ever did anything on the contrary, but then I'm not the one complaining about blue ticks on twitter

Hmmm

I'm complaining about the destruction of twitter as a useable platform and a valuable information source

Then again, I tend to believe it if an expert tells me that something is going to be crap, because an expert will know more than David678023

Each to their own I guess

[Holmeclaret]

Shall I take it that’s a policy you’d advocate here then? Shoot any young driver who doesn’t stop for the police?

Or anyone that’s over the limit.

[Rumbletonk]

Every single aspect of what happened and the fall out is mind boggling. You try and break down all of it and every part is just wrong

[Bordeauxclaret]

But were the sandals venomous?

That is the big question we all need the answer to.


Edit oh it got deleted, never mind.

[Bin Ont Turf]

But were the sandals venomous?

That is the big question we all need the answer to.


Edit oh it got deleted, never mind.

Of course it's been deleted, that's the type of behaviour that's got France in their mess.

How is it down there in Bordeaux? Still got wine and a library to go to?

[Jakubclaret]

Every single aspect of what happened and the fall out is mind boggling. You try and break down all of it and every part is just wrong

Quite right, that’s why some sort of a independent investigation needs to be carried out to ascertain what actually happened & act accordingly henceforth to hopefully prevent future occurrences. Things need to settle down first though.

[Rowls]

Every single aspect of what happened and the fall out is mind boggling. You try and break down all of it and every part is just wrong

So much is wrong, yes. But nothing is "mind boggling" in the sense of 'unexpected'.

Before I start this post, I understand that what you mean by 'mind boggling' can mean many things but I want to just express how this is s situation that could have been easily predicted.

If you have a rich, liberal western country harboring racially segregated ghettos in every major town, where the police barely dare tread foot and drugs are openly sold in broad daylight and these ghettoised, racially segregated groups are conditioned to feel oppressed and apart from mainstream French culture...

Add to this what might be potentially hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants sleeping rough on the streets, often in and around these ghettos, adding to the social burden, suppressing wages and fuelling a black market economy, and also increasing the sense of isolation perceived by the non-native (mainly Arab) population...

What you have is a tinderbox waiting to go off. It isn't "mind boggling" at all. It is virtually inevitable that you will get this kind of disorder.

It's similar in many respects to what happened in the UK in 2001 and 2011.

[Jakubclaret]

Or come here get incarcerated & playstations/Xboxes galore I think I'd be jumping on the nearest dingy I could find.

[Quicknick]

So much is wrong, yes. But nothing is "mind boggling" in the sense of 'unexpected'.

Before I start this post, I understand that what you mean by 'mind boggling' can mean many things but I want to just express how this is s situation that could have been easily predicted.

If you have a rich, liberal western country harboring racially segregated ghettos in every major town, where the police barely dare tread foot and drugs are openly sold in broad daylight and these ghettoised, racially segregated groups are conditioned to feel oppressed and apart from mainstream French culture...

Add to this what might be potentially hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants sleeping rough on the streets, often in and around these ghettos, adding to the social burden, suppressing wages and fuelling a black market economy, and also increasing the sense of isolation perceived by the non-native (mainly Arab) population...

What you have is a tinderbox waiting to go off. It isn't "mind boggling" at all. It is virtually inevitable that you will get this kind of disorder.

It's similar in many respects to what happened in the UK in 2001 and 2011.

Good overview, Rowls.

[JohnMcGreal]

Facts are facts though

Trump is a liar, Johnson is a liar, Keir Starmer is boring

You're being very charitable to Starmer by just saying he's boring, Lancaster. If you stick to the facts then he's also a liar. A boring liar.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

How long before the French Armed Forces stage a coup d'etat then?

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm personally happy that I can read the musings of someone who pays $7 per month and treat it with a fair amount of scepticism, as opposed to believing everything I read posted by someone who the puppet masters at twitter tell me to believe when I'm looking to form an opinion on something that's happening hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Not that I ever did anything on the contrary, but then I'm not the one complaining about blue ticks on twitter

It's good that you can view things with a fair amount of scepticism, the problem is there are people who believe, and want to believe, every negative and lie they read.
They don't view things with scepticism, they use it as an excuse for rioting.
The dangers of uncontrolled disinformation are huge. I believe most riots are led from the rear, by professional agitators. Politically motivated morons, who will use any trick they can to attack the Police and Society as a whole. Who then crawl back under their rocks until the next opportunity. They'll never get arrested, because they never get their hands dirty, they just wind the idiots up, light the blue touch paper and stand back. Disinformation is manna from heaven for these people.

[Holmeclaret]

Don't be ridiculous ... I'm just pointing out that the " story " could have been altogether different ..
Sadly he's not the first, nor will he be the last young man to lose his life due to his own recklessness and poor policing ...

My comment too was ridiculous in hindsight. Apologies, Chris.

[Billyblah]

If the Police had guns and wanted me to stop I would cooperate fully and still be alive. But hey ho

But this was a 17 year old kid driving a Mercedes that he didn't own nor was he legally able to do so (had he stolen it?) and was known to the police for his activities.
You can understand the police being frustrated by having to continually sort out the sh1t with someone who simply can't behave themselves.
Its looking like the penalties/punishment for such behaviour in France are as wishy washy as sentences dished out over here for similar behaviour.

[Stayingup]

This riotous nihilistic behaviour is largely imported from the USA, so many French say. But its been going this way for at least 25 years. Fortunately I didn't see this when I lived there but I was in one of the smaller cities in the South.

[evensteadiereddie]

But this was a 17 year old kid driving a Mercedes that he didn't own nor was he legally able to do so (had he stolen it?) and was known to the police for his activities.
You can understand the police being frustrated by having to continually sort out the sh1t with someone who simply can't behave themselves.
Its looking like the penalties/punishment for such behaviour in France are as wishy washy as sentences dished out over here for similar behaviour.

I'd say execution's a bit harsh for such a trivial offence but hey ho...

[bfcjg]

Will the attempted murder of non North African origin French people trigger riots in other areas of France ? Will the French right try to use this as an excuse to promote their agenda ? I fear France will get worse before it gets better.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ri ... 023-07-02/

[Jamesy]

I'd say execution's a bit harsh for such a trivial offence but hey ho...

I would say a decent custodial sentence would be about right for this repeated not so trivial offence. You wouldn’t call it trivial if he had mowed down a mother and baby in a pushchair in a stolen high powered AMG.
However, he didn’t get his day in court as we have sadly seen. Not condoning his death in any way but definitely not a child carrying out a trivial offence.

[Venkys4eva]

That is absolutely not the case I'm afraid

Every generation has challenges absolutely no doubt, but the ones below mine and yours really are struggling, and its not helping that people think they aren't

Yes i feel sorry for them with their mobile phones, tvs, internet and schools that have more resources than any I ever attended. All these first world problems for the poor little angels, I really dont know how they struggle through, bless.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes i feel sorry for them with their mobile phones, tvs, internet and schools that have more resources than any I ever attended. All these first world problems for the poor little angels, I really dont know how they struggle through, bless.

Right, I'll put you down as "Boomer"

[evensteadiereddie]

You're insane. This was an execution.

[ClaretCliff]

Just read that the gofundme collection for the policeman has raised 5 times that for the dead teenager.

[bfcjg]

Just read that the gofundme collection for the policeman has raised 5 times that for the dead teenager.

Perhaps his amount will start climbing when his sympathisers and supporters have sold some of their looted goods.

[Loyalclaret]

Interesting thread on Twitter about misinformation. Might tie in with a comment here about being surprised about the arsenal the rioters have
https://twitter.com/Shayan86/status/167 ... 19136?s=19

[Spijed]

Can I ask those who are condemning these riots why they didn't have the same condemnation for the Capitol riots in Washington?

It seems many who where strangely quiet about that event are very keen to criticise these inner city riots.

I wonder why?

[Jamesy]

Can I ask those who are condemning these riots why they didn't have the same condemnation for the Capitol riots in Washington?

It seems many who where strangely quiet about that event are very keen to criticise these inner city riots.

I wonder why?

Two and a half years ago? Have you trawled through all posters then to see who were quiet at the time?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Can I ask those who are condemning these riots why they didn't have the same condemnation for the Capitol riots in Washington?

It seems many who where strangely quiet about that event are very keen to criticise these inner city riots.

I wonder why?

Why do you think this is the case (if at all it is)

[Clovius Boofus]

Can I ask those who are condemning these riots why they didn't have the same condemnation for the Capitol riots in Washington?

It seems many who where strangely quiet about that event are very keen to criticise these inner city riots.

I wonder why?

Well, I condemn both. Also, just think what would have happened to the markets if Horned Helmet Man had won the day and the US was no longer a democracy? We'd all be in the shite along with our pension pots. Money looks for safe homes when there's chaos. This is why our own financial markets started to tank when Mad Liz and Krazy Kwarteng launched their disastrous budget.

As for France, there's hardly any political or popular support for the rioters. In fact, relations between the rest of France and the people involve in the destruction couldn't be any worse than they are today. The riots have achieved nothing apart from alienating the communities even further.