Why the panic?

[Hedontplayforyou]

Begs the question why Cullen isn’t dropping deep to collect the ball if that’s what we are doing

[ksrclaret]

Big gaps in the middle again with that passing network is what I see. That’s the ‘in possession’ shape.

Cheers RV.

It’s not obvious to me what shape we were attempting there. You could make a case for a very lopsided 442 I suppose, or a 433, or even a 523. Lots of work to be done on the training ground

[kentonclaret]

Harrogate are in League 2. Forest made 7 changes and brought most first teamers on at 60 minutes. Silly comparison.

Fielding their first teamers for 90 minutes Forest kept a clean sheet and won away at Chelsea we conceded 5 goals at home and got demolished by Tottenham. Plain daft to try and correlate EFL Cup ties to the PL.

[ashtonlongsider]

The word I'd use is concerned. It's one think being in transition in the championship but a totally different proposition in the PL. It's always difficult blooding too many young lads at the same time. In each of the 3 games we have got gradually worse imo. I feel the squad is way too big and very lopsided.
I have every faith in VK turning it round. He is undoubtably one of the best defenders of the PL era which should bode well for reorganising that unit. He's a very forward thinking coach trying to introduce revolutionary new methods and I personally hope he can reintegrate some of our more experienced players to play along with some of the exciting young talent he's purchased.

[beddie]

Once VK has worked out his best team we’ll be okay. The high level of quality of the opposition we’ve just come through could in fact be a blessing in disguise. Stick with him, he’s won enough medals to know what he’s doing.

[Belial]

Do you call everyone who has a different point of view a bedwetter ?

Strange, very broad question - but in answer to the actual subject, no just the distinguishable ones

[Belial]

“Bedwetters”

We were terrible against Villa and even worse yesterday. A spade is still a spade no matter how optimistic you are.

I believe we’ll get better but to do so we’ve got to change how we play

Agree we were completely outclassed v Villa. Yesterday we were decent for maybe 25-30 mins of the full game but that isn't good enough at this level. I also agree we'll get better and that there's no need to panic yet for that reason

[JimmyRobbo]

Top 6 ?
Villa finished 7th and Spurs 8th last season.

And we fnished 1st, so what's your poinit?

Nothing, as usual.

[claretandy]

Anyone remember the start of last season? When we played some good stuff at times but kept conceding shabby goals , and it wasn’t quite clicking.

Well we are in that transition again with lots of new players , and lots learning the demands of the league. Some strange decisions yesterday like but let’s start again after international break

I could at least see the plan last season, what's the plan now ?

[warksclaret]

We keep talking of being exposed to the "top 6", but plenty of other PL clubs are exceptional to counter attacking ie WHU, Brighton, Newcastle, Brentford

Think the priority is getting the defending basics right, and working out our best midfield. I am confident we will score goals.Work in progress

[Anonymous Claret]

Begs the question why Cullen isn’t dropping deep to collect the ball if that’s what we are doing

Maybe because he is being man marked when the opposition don't have possession in our half by a big strong midfielder and he struggles to find even the tiniest bit of space. Someone else also mentioned he doesn't have the 2 out balls of Muric and Maatsen that he had last season.

[Hedontplayforyou]

Maybe because he is being man marked when the opposition don't have possession in our half by a big strong midfielder and he struggles to find even the tiniest bit of space. Someone else also mentioned he doesn't have the 2 out balls of Muric and Maatsen that he had last season.

He’s higher up the pitch as well. Brownhill needs to be in there to do some of the dirty work.

[Ampth7]

I’m definitely not panicking, but 11 goals conceded in 3 games is alarming and as Vinny has already stated, this needs rectifying ASAP! It’s plain to see that we are far too open defensively at the moment made even more challenging by the fact that we can’t dominate possession against these sorts of teams who are way ahead of us in every sense.
To balance the argument, as if anyone needed reminding, we are a new squad, lots of young players and manager, and we have looked a threat going forwards against 3 in-form, top sides in this league. We go again…….

[ClaretPete001]

Big gaps in the middle again with that passing network is what I see. That’s the ‘in possession’ shape.

The other graph on the ‘shambles’ thread seemed more realistic to me. The press is just too high exposing the CBS. No idea what VK is trying to do but I agree with others these confidence sapping defeats will not be of much use to anyone.

Playing a 4-5-1 with Cork and Brownhill in the middle alongside Cullen would probably not have elicited anymore points but it would have been less embarrassing.

And it has been that bad but it’s early days yet and a a bit of experience and leadership in the middle of the park could make all the difference. If it was me I’d put Cork in front of the back 4 with 2 of Brownhill, Cullen and Berge in front of him.

[Newchurch Claret]

I wouldn’t say it’s panic. That’s not the correct word. It’s more disbelief. Disbelief at the number of unnecessary changes. Disbelief that we haven’t signed a left back (when VK is clearly not a fan of Taylor). Disbelief that last year’s team hasn’t been given a chance. Disbelief that the new players haven’t had to earn the right to start. Disbelief that we paid £19m for Trafford, £15m for Berge and £7m for O’Shea (none of whom are better than what we already have) and yet wouldn’t pay £18m for Tella.

It’s not panic. It’s just not seeing everything through Claret tinted glasses.

A huge 2 weeks, now. We have the experience in the squad to create a solid base from which our flair players can influence the game. Time for VK and his team to show they can adapt.

[kentonclaret]

VK has developed his whole “transfer window” strategy into bringing in those players to implement his preferred style of play. Hence, a preponderance of wingers and a shortage of left sided full backs and defensive midfield players. Whether VK will now change tack and start utilising members of the “old guard” in a different tactical approach remains to be seen.

[boyyanno]

We have to change things against the better teams I agree.

It’s a big ask of O’Shea, as an example, to go from a low ish block for West Brom in the Champ to a high line against Son/Watkins et al.

But that wasn’t really the point, you said we haven’t been competitive at all and I disagree, I think we’ve been pretty good in parts against very good teams. 20 shots isn’t that relevant, the quality of chances was pretty close as the xG suggests. I’m with Kompany on that and trusting as the team progresses, there is more cohesion with the press and defence (basically exactly like last season).

But in this instance it's not the quality of the chances that I'm necessarily worried about but more the fact that when we turnover possession we look in a real mess at the back. That can't be measured by xg.

There isn't a metric that measures "potentially" dangerous chances, but that's our problem at the moment I think, most attacks against us look like they have the potential to result in a goal for the opposition side. You're going to struggle to win games if that's the case.

Cohesion will definitely help but if we are going to continue with these tactics then I think a different type of CM would have been ideal in the window. We have shown we can trouble sides and play a bit in patches, but we need to find the balance. I do think that will come with time but time is short in the PL so hopefully we see some improvements in terms of performance across 90 minutes (even if not in results) in the short term.

I do think this is arguably the best squad we've ever had at this level so I really hope Kompany can get things right because to some extent its never been so exciting to be a Burnley fan. The potential going forward with players like Koleosho, Tresor, Foster, Zaroury, Benson, Amdouni looks good enough to trouble most sides imo.

[Vegas Claret]

no panic from me, I expected us to lose all 3 heavily. I expect us to lose most games this season, teams do the same as us but with players that cost 2-3 times the amount. We won't be able to compete with most teams, it's a billionaires playground. As long as VK stays I'm good whatever happens

[Newcastleclaret93]

I wouldn’t say it’s panic. That’s not the correct word. It’s more disbelief. Disbelief at the number of unnecessary changes. Disbelief that we haven’t signed a left back (when VK is clearly not a fan of Taylor). Disbelief that last year’s team hasn’t been given a chance. Disbelief that the new players haven’t had to earn the right to start. Disbelief that we paid £19m for Trafford, £15m for Berge and £7m for O’Shea (none of whom are better than what we already have) and yet wouldn’t pay £18m for Tella.

It’s not panic. It’s just not seeing everything through Claret tinted glasses.

A huge 2 weeks, now. We have the experience in the squad to create a solid base from which our flair players can influence the game. Time for VK and his team to show they can adapt.

I’m not dismissing your points but who are these experienced players that we can build a solid base from?

Brownhill, Cork, JBG and Taylor were all apart of a premier league team that really struggled 2 seasons ago.

[Casper2]

And we fnished 1st, so what's your poinit?

Nothing, as usual.

Wow

[Darnhill Claret]

Our full-backs and centre backs were getting too isolated from each other and Berge needs to play more central so that when we are in possession our right flank is better supported. Tresor will address this when he is deemed ready to start. Our front three to my mind are looking very good despite the team not at their best yet. Messengo should also give the centre backs some coverage help numbers wise. VK might have to consider only one winger in a front three or a 451 until we start collecting points. But however we set up at kick-off he will still want to play his zonal switching system. The players will just have to perform it better and for longer sustained periods of play. They improved throughout the season last time around and will have to do the same this time around. However, as the quality of opposition is greater, so is the challenge. More hard work on the training ground until performances reach the required level. Changing systems and tactics isn't the answer in my opinion, just everyone continuing to improve and develop.

Example one, Jordan realising that he needs a bigger space to drive into when he chooses to carry the ball forward.

[forzagranata]

There are a lot of things to be concerned about.

Formations, tactics and team selections can all be adjusted - what worries me is that our recruitment may not have been good enough for the Premier League.

Compare our signings with Forest, who spent a similar amount to us in the market (much lower net spend however)

Like us, they needed a LB - so they brought in Nuno Tavares from Arsenal on a year loan. 1.5 million loan fee

Two RBs - Aina from Torino (aged 26) and Montiel from Seville (aged 26)

Like us they wanted wingers - they brought in Anthony Elanga from Man United (15 mill) and Callum Hudson-Odoi from Chelsea (3 million)

They needed a DM - they brought in Andrey Santos from Chelsea on loan.

[123EasyasBFC]

There are a lot of things to be concerned about.

Formations, tactics and team selections can all be adjusted - what worries me is that our recruitment may not have been good enough for the Premier League.

Compare our signings with Forest, who spent a similar amount to us in the market (much lower net spend however)

Like us, they needed a LB - so they brought in Nuno Tavares from Arsenal on a year loan. 1.5 million loan fee

Two RBs - Aina from Torino (aged 26) and Montiel from Seville (aged 26)

Like us they wanted wingers - they brought in Anthony Elanga from Man United (15 mill) and Callum Hudson-Odoi from Chelsea (3 million)

They needed a DM - they brought in Andrey Santos from Chelsea on loan.

Aren’t they able to offer a lot higher wages than us? They can afford transfer fees and wages where as we can’t. Paying the full 88k a week wages for origi is something we couldn’t do

[warksclaret]

Wishing to stay positive as VK will sort it, and its obvious where our weaknesses are. The one thing we can all agree upon, and I probably see 90% of all goals scored in the PL each week, is that our defense currently is the easiest one in the PL to unlock, and I include Everton, Sheff Utd and Luton in that

[Swizzlestick]

It’s clear we wanted Maatsen as first choice LB. We have no idea what assurances were given, if any. We may have had the green light all window only for it to be stopped last minute. Is Nuno Tavares any good? I couldn’t tell you. Elanga scored yesterday but has been a bench player so far. Andrey Santos’ only appearances have been for Vasco da Gama in Brazil. Is this any better than Massengo who already has 100 appearances for Bristol City and was at Auxerre last? Forest will also have spent a fortune on wages, certainly on Origi.

We should have brought in a LB, everybody knows that, but we don’t know the ins and outs of the Maatsen negotiations. I guess the point is it’s still early doors and there’s a long way to go yet.

[forzagranata]

Aren’t they able to offer a lot higher wages than us? They can afford transfer fees and wages where as we can’t. Paying the full 88k a week wages for origi is something we couldn’t do

Very probably. Thats our choice though.

One less 12 million winger sat on the bench - could cover a lot of wages.

Historically wages to league position is a much closer correlation than transfer fees spent.

[forzagranata]

It’s clear we wanted Maatsen as first choice LB. We have no idea what assurances were given, if any. We may have had the green light all window only for it to be stopped last minute. Is Nuno Tavares any good? I couldn’t tell you. Elanga scored yesterday but has been a bench player so far. Andrey Santos’ only appearances have been for Vasco da Gama in Brazil. Is this any better than Massengo who already has 100 appearances for Bristol City and was at Auxerre last? Forest will also have spent a fortune on wages, certainly on Origi.

We should have brought in a LB, everybody knows that, but we don’t know the ins and outs of the Maatsen negotiations. I guess the point is it’s still early doors and there’s a long way to go yet.

It is early doors and we may have signed some good players. But it shows there are different ways to spend money. Callum Hudson Odoi for three million or 10 million each on various wingers from the Belgian league. Forest won at Chelsea, we are getting battered by everyone so far.

[JimmyRobbo]

Wow

Wower!

[RVclaret]

It is early doors and we may have signed some good players. But it shows there are different ways to spend money. Callum Hudson Odoi for three million or 10 million each on various wingers from the Belgian league. Forest won at Chelsea, we are getting battered by everyone so far.

There’s some context missing here though. Firstly CHO is on over 100k a week. Secondly we haven’t spent over 10m on any winger from the Belgian league. Thirdly, Forest have had a full season at this level - at the start of last season they took 6 points from the first 11 games, including 6-0 and 5-1 defeats to 2 of the ‘big 6’ and 2x 3-2 home defeats to Bournemouth and Fulham (supposed relegation rivals). Once their team settled they started picking up points.

[Swizzlestick]

It is early doors and we may have signed some good players. But it shows there are different ways to spend money. Callum Hudson Odoi for three million or 10 million each on various wingers from the Belgian league. Forest won at Chelsea, we are getting battered by everyone so far.

Yes, great result. But Forest spent fortunes last summer and are spending fortunes again. And it’s one result. Maybe VK doesn’t rate Hudson-Odoi? Did he do much at Leverkusen? Do you not think Tresor is a good signing - Belgian player of the year? I’m not sure who the other £10m Belgian league wingers are. Unless you mean Odobert from Troyes which is an eyebrow raiser but maybe they see serious potential. Koleosho was, what, £3m? Already looks to be worth far more than that.

Forest’s best player (Gibbs-White) cost them over £40m. The comparisons are little unfair.

[Neil]

There’s some context missing here though. Firstly CHO is on over 100k a week. Secondly we haven’t spent over 10m on any winger from the Belgian league. Thirdly, Forest have had a full season at this level - at the start of last season they took 6 points from the first 11 games, including 6-0 and 5-1 defeats to 2 of the ‘big 6’ and 2x 3-2 home defeats to Bournemouth and Fulham (supposed relegation rivals). Once their team settled they started picking up points.

I think we have a similar problem to what Forest had 12 months ago. A LOT of incomings and it will take time to figure out the best players and formation.

[KRBFC]

Top 6 ?
Villa finished 7th and Spurs 8th last season.

They won’t this season though, I’m sure Villa were 2nd in points gained (since Emery took charge). Spurs are on fire at the minute.

[KRBFC]

It’s been a dreadful start. Too many changes to the team that did so well last season leading to a lack of identity and leadership. Thankfully a break now for Kompany to have a major rethink on personnel and tactics.

We don’t look to be playing the same way at all which is strange. I’d rather we lost whilst trying to implement the style that made us successful last season, at the minute we’re in between and lacking any real identity. It’s noticeable Cullen isn’t dropping deep into the same positions with one full back high up the pitch and the other narrow.

[KRBFC]

I believe we’re so wide open not because of personal but because we aren’t employing the same system at all. Caught between multiple systems, not sure why we keep adding 5 at the back into things either, just complicates things further.

Last season our system was consistent and pretty simple but highly effective. Let’s try that

[kentonclaret]

A less dramatic thread title suggestion.

Why the concern?

[box_of_frogs]

Probably because we have been poor and naive.

Literally might as well have closed the thread after this post. Absolutely spot on.

[kentonclaret]

They won’t this season though, I’m sure Villa were 2nd in points gained (since Emery took charge). Spurs are on fire at the minute.

For Aston Villa to finish in the top 6 then Brighton, Chelsea or one of Newcastle/Tottenham will have to miss out. Emery likes to win Cups so the Europa League will be his priority.

[123EasyasBFC]

Very probably. Thats our choice though.

One less 12 million winger sat on the bench - could cover a lot of wages.

Historically wages to league position is a much closer correlation than transfer fees spent.

Forest have also spent high on transfer fees and wages for a lot of players without premier league experience

[123EasyasBFC]

I think it’s pretty simple, if you look at Brentford they have a traditional back 4 who’s 2 CBs are defend first defenders now play out, by having a traditional back 4 and an extra midfielder we can still be creative, if 3 midfielders and 3 attackers can’t create enough without having to rely on the full backs to come central to get involved then we do have a problem

[NewClaret]

There’s some context missing here though. Firstly CHO is on over 100k a week. Secondly we haven’t spent over 10m on any winger from the Belgian league. Thirdly, Forest have had a full season at this level - at the start of last season they took 6 points from the first 11 games, including 6-0 and 5-1 defeats to 2 of the ‘big 6’ and 2x 3-2 home defeats to Bournemouth and Fulham (supposed relegation rivals). Once their team settled they started picking up points.

Very good post RV.

I’m not panicking at all. Nor am I concerned. But then I wasn’t expecting us to win or compete against the teams we’ve played so far.

We only had about 12pts at the halfway point in the last time we were in this league. Plenty of time to better that and think we will.

Do find some of the transfer business a bit strange & think we now have a lopsided squad full of young attacking talent but lacking experience and a strong midfield. But have to remember our manager is also only 37 years old and will make mistakes also.

The team just need backing to the hilt and they’ll grow.

[Casper2]

They won’t this season though, I’m sure Villa were 2nd in points gained (since Emery took charge). Spurs are on fire at the minute.

Villa got hammered today , nowhere near top 6 .
Spurs just knocked out of the cup

[Swizzlestick]

Villa got hammered today , nowhere near top 6 .
Spurs just knocked out of the cup

You think Villa will be nowhere near the top 6?

[kentonclaret]

You think Villa will be nowhere near the top 6?

8th or 9th is as close to the top 6 as they will get as the current betting suggests. Aston Villa 11/4 to finish top 6 before today’s hammering.
For Villa to finish top 6 both Brighton and Chelsea would have to fail plus one of Tottenham/Newcastle.

[Swizzlestick]

Well considering they finished 7th last season, and have, for me, improved the squad, I’m going to stick with the getting close to top 6 prediction. Liverpool are still one of the best teams in the country. Seems the bookies agree as they’re still 11/4.

Chelsea and NUFC are hardly pulling up any trees at the moment

[kentonclaret]

Chelsea and NUFC are hardly pulling up any trees at the moment

Newcastle 5 Aston Villa 1 just a few weeks ago.

[Swizzlestick]

Newcastle 5 Aston Villa 1 just a few weeks ago.

And below them in the table. Funny old game eh?

[Darnhill Claret]

Newcastle 3 points ahead of us having played a game more than us.

[Darnhill Claret]

Not sure what Spurs getting knocked out of the League Cup has to do with anything in this conversation.

[Casper2]

You think Villa will be nowhere near the top 6?

Mid table , lots of injuries and Emery will be found out , Newcastle and Liverpool already have .

[Swizzlestick]

Mid table , lots of injuries and Emery will be found out , Newcastle and Liverpool already have .

Three time Europa League winner Unai Emery will be found out? Ok.