HST2

[TsarBomba]

My sisters husband works in a managerial position for Network Rail, and before that TFL.

The wastage and incompetence is astounding, and would even put the Met to shame, which is saying something.

Ideally they would like to scrap HS2 but they are too far down the line now and have spent billions already, including a massive concrete works in Somerset.

In essence, scrapping it now with the billions spent would be political suicidal so they’re going to go ahead and waste billions more.

[jrgbfc]

Not to mention the cost and disruption of turning the area around Euston station into a building site, now it looks like it won't even get that far.
The Tories really have turned our country into a laughing stock.

[Roger1960]

Hardly a fair comparison. ECML electrification - basic layout of track and infrastructure already existing. HST2 - purchase of land and complete construction including levelling, tunnels, stations etc etc.. Probably many people/businesses need relocating.

One question for you knowledgeable rail people. Why do we need signalling these days - meaning physical signalling and all the cabling etc.. Can't signal information be sent down the rails or use boxes on the track so that the signals - green/red lights, speed restrictions etc. can be seen in the cab?

Reading about it going over to a digital control system with each train following the other rather than each one having a section of track to itself is very complicated when-put onto a Victorian rail network and a mix of trains at very different speeds and hence very varied stopping distances. Given enough money though it’s double

[ClaretOfMancunia]

Typical London-centric governance.

Cost overruns on Crossrail were fine, after all it's London. Never any question of cancelling those improvement works.

Cost overruns on anything north of Birmingham? Unacceptable. Cancel it immediately.

[evensteadiereddie]

Andy Burnham came up with an interesting idea on one of the breakfast news shows.
Suspend work north of Birmingham and sort out the northern railway network once and for all.
If there's any money left, recommence the Brum to Manc section.
Mind you, I get the sneaking suspicion all this crap is, yet again, stage managed for the Tory party conference in Manchester in few days time when hey, guess what, we're not going to cancel the Manchester route at all.
Cue rapturous applause.....

[TheFamilyCat]

Andy Burnham came up with an interesting idea on one of the breakfast news shows.
Suspend work north of Birmingham and sort out the northern railway network once and for all.
If there's any money left, recommence the Brum to Manc section.
Mind you, I get the sneaking suspicion all this crap is, yet again, stage managed for the Tory party conference in Manchester in few days time when hey, guess what, we're not going to cancel the Manchester route at all.
Cue rapturous applause.....

Until after the election (should they somehow manage to hook in enough gullible mugs).

[JohnMcGreal]

Andy Burnham came up with an interesting idea on one of the breakfast news shows.
Suspend work north of Birmingham and sort out the northern railway network once and for all.
If there's any money left, recommence the Brum to Manc section.

But isn't the whole point of Phase 2 to increase capacity and get trains off the WCML? Creating more capacity for more trains to run?

How is that going to be resolved if the Manchester leg is scrapped?

[ClaretOfMancunia]

But isn't the whole point of Phase 2 to increase capacity and get trains off the WCML? Creating more capacity for more trains to run?

How is that going to be resolved if the Manchester leg is scrapped?

East to West links across the North are in desperate need of an upgrade too. I think he's saying at least do that if you're going to scrap the Manc <---> Birmingham section of HS2.

[jos]

Preston to London return (08:00) =£214.80 that’s 2nd class (£374 first class)

It’s not how long it takes to get there (it’s only a couple of hours) it’s the price they should be looking to reduce.

That’s when the trains are running.

[BobSykes]

Would it be realistic to delay by say 5 years the Birmingham to Crewe phase (not scrapping it) but bring forward the presumably a bit cheaper Crewe to Manchester phase, thus saving some Treasury money in the short term on the overall HS2 project, whilst also green lighting Northern Powerhouse Rail which could effectively then be an extension of the cheaper leg of HS2 you've brought forward? Sure it would mean HS2 trains use the existing tracks between Crewe and Birmingham International but that's better than scrapping HS2 completely?

That would save money in the next few financial years, not completely scrap the wider HS2 scheme, commit to the north, bring the Manchester leg forward not back, tie in Powerhouse Rail even if that is still some years off?

I'm sanguine about ditching Euston. Nobody ever goes to Euston it is just a changing point for the tube, so not sure I'm that fussed about getting the flash new Elizabeth line and thereafter from Old Oak Common.

Fair to say I'll be nearing retirement by that time anyway...

[IanMcL]

Why does anyone think that this scheme had legs, anywhere than to help London?

Just hot air, side of the bus crap. 'Powerhouse' is a bit of a giveaway. Why would these London folk want to take their wealth elsewhere?

[Pickles]

Everywhere north of Crewe, we should just go our own way and leave them down south to it. HS2's a farce. More London-centric nonsense after that empty, patronising "Northern Powerhouse" crap. Level Up? Nah, just P!ss Off.

[SammyBoy]

Haven’t followed HS2 beyond the headlines but the standout question for me is how much are tickets going to cost given tickets on the existing lines are already crazy prices? What’s the point having a high speed rail link if it’s prohibitively expensive.

[claret2018]

It’s the perfect example of the sunken cost fallacy

[ClaretOfMancunia]

It’s the perfect example of the sunken cost fallacy

Not really, since it's not obvious abandoning the project is the most beneficial option.

[Big Vinny K]

Andy Burnham now saying if they are going to cancel this then they should at least do the line between Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly

Looks like it’s every man for himself !!

The Tories are entering the territory of full on desperation mode looking to the general election. Everything thing they announce from this point will be about dividing the nation to try and redeem a few crumbs of whatever support they have left. That will include trying to push the Labour Party into making election promises and commitments in areas such as this so they can try and discredit their economic spending plans.

It won’t work
The nation is already divided.
And the Labour Party will continue their policy of saying that their spending plans will be revealed as near to the election as possible so they can take into account all the major financial factors like inflation, interest rates, size of the deficit etc.

[Roger1960]

Haven’t followed HS2 beyond the headlines but the standout question for me is how much are tickets going to cost given tickets on the existing lines are already crazy prices? What’s the point having a high speed rail link if it’s prohibitively expensive.

Interestingly the government announced when they let the existing west coast franchise to Avanti they or whoever was the operator at the time it finishes would also get the HS2 contract to prevent the existing slow line undercutting HS2 and that’s a conservative government who claim to be in favour of free market competition. Trouble is they are right given a choice between a journey 1 hour quicker but £x more expensive or the existing just over 2 hour journey at lower cost an awful lot of people will go for the slower service

[ecc]

Slightly off-topic but I was staggered to read just how poor the German railway network is today.

I've read about these problems in both the British and French media.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ap-germany

Perhaps not a coincidence that Deutsche Bahn is, via Arriva, a major player in the UK rail network.

[Taffy on the wing]

Until after the election (should they somehow manage to hook in enough gullible mugs).

There's a seemingly endless supply of people willing to shoot themselves in the foot!

[Taffy on the wing]

Haven’t followed HS2 beyond the headlines but the standout question for me is how much are tickets going to cost given tickets on the existing lines are already crazy prices? What’s the point having a high speed rail link if it’s prohibitively expensive.

So the rich can use it of course!......& they won't have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed.

[Nori1958]

So the rich can use it of course!......& they won't have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed.

Sounds like an excellent idea...

[Gerry Hattrick]

Whether it's justifiable to complete the whole of the initial concept or not with the current and anticipated cost escalations, if work had been started from the northern terminals, no matter what the final cost would be, it wouldn't have been proposed now that it stopped at Birmingham.

[Taffy on the wing]

Sounds like an excellent idea...

Especially the part where the poor are paying for it too i suppose!

[HunterST_BFC]

the prices paid for Propertys and Land - really needs looking at.
Dodgy at best.
Some got very Rich.
Yet many have lost £housands and many can't sell...

I know wonder that if parts are cancelled there will suddenly be housing built on the now cheap land ...

So much Corruption.

[Nori1958]

Especially the part where the poor are paying for it too i suppose!

I doubt that's the case

[northernpowerhouse]

Preston to London return (08:00) =£214.80 that’s 2nd class (£374 first class)

It’s not how long it takes to get there (it’s only a couple of hours) it’s the price they should be looking to reduce.

That’s when the trains are running.

To be fair HS2 might help that a bit. At the moment some journeys to London are so crowded they can charge full whack and still virtually sell out. Whereas the increased capacity from HS2 might mean more unsold seats they can reduce prices on.

[Stockbrokerbelt]

UK is the only European country without a high speed train/lines, here in Spain we have 2 with 3 companies operating on them & 1 is state owned, I went from Malaga to Madrid at 08.30 returning 2 days later at 17.35 all on time for €28 return. Don’t hear anyone in Spain complaining about waste of money. It also links up with other European high speed networks with great deals.

[Nori1958]

UK is the only European country without a high speed train/lines, here in Spain we have 2 with 3 companies operating on them & 1 is state owned, I went from Malaga to Madrid at 08.30 returning 2 days later at 17.35 all on time for €28 return. Don’t hear anyone in Spain complaining about waste of money. It also links up with other European high speed networks with great deals.

My experience of Spanish trains are that they are not full of drunks and druggies, rarely overcrowded, affordable, and run on time.... Everything opposite to ours, so any improvement would be welcomed here.

[aggi]

Would it be realistic to delay by say 5 years the Birmingham to Crewe phase (not scrapping it) but bring forward the presumably a bit cheaper Crewe to Manchester phase, thus saving some Treasury money in the short term on the overall HS2 project, whilst also green lighting Northern Powerhouse Rail which could effectively then be an extension of the cheaper leg of HS2 you've brought forward? Sure it would mean HS2 trains use the existing tracks between Crewe and Birmingham International but that's better than scrapping HS2 completely?

That would save money in the next few financial years, not completely scrap the wider HS2 scheme, commit to the north, bring the Manchester leg forward not back, tie in Powerhouse Rail even if that is still some years off?

I'm sanguine about ditching Euston. Nobody ever goes to Euston it is just a changing point for the tube, so not sure I'm that fussed about getting the flash new Elizabeth line and thereafter from Old Oak Common.

Fair to say I'll be nearing retirement by that time anyway...

Can't say I'd agree with that. Euston puts you in walking distance of the West End, the new developments at King's Cross, Eurostar and multiple tube lines (the proposal was for walkways to link Euston, Euston Square and Kings Cross). Old Oak Common means you have to get another train (with limited luggage space) and probably change unless your destination is on that specific East/West corridor.

[Stockbrokerbelt]

New double decker high speed trains coming into service from Madrid to Malaga.

IMG_3136.jpeg (287.4 KiB) Viewed 1951 times

[Hipper]

Double Decker trains are in use in The Netherlands too and I think in other parts of Europe. The issue for us in the UK on existing track is tunnels and bridges, or lowering the track. I believe it is being considered for HS2. It's not just seat capacity. Other features can be introduced like quiet areas - no kids - or kids play areas!

[Pickles]

UK is the only European country without a high speed train/lines, here in Spain we have 2 with 3 companies operating on them & 1 is state owned, I went from Malaga to Madrid at 08.30 returning 2 days later at 17.35 all on time for €28 return. Don’t hear anyone in Spain complaining about waste of money. It also links up with other European high speed networks with great deals.

That's a great price. We can but dream.

[Taffy on the wing]

I doubt that's the case

Tax payers pay for it!.....Right out of their pay check.
The better off however will be writing off their ticket as a business expense, as will companies.

[dougcollins]

I know a guy near Wakefield whose house was compulsorily purchased for HST2- at, as it turns out, a not very competitive price. The house has gone but the land won't be used.
He hasnt yet recovered financially or mentally.

[TheFamilyCat]

I know a guy near Wakefield whose house was compulsorily purchased for HST2- at, as it turns out, a not very competitive price. The house has gone but the land won't be used.
He hasnt yet recovered financially or mentally.

I worked with two people who had the same thing, both on the same estate around Swinton or Mexborough. They were newbuilds, one had only been there a few months, thr other house hadn't even been built.

[Nori1958]

Tax payers pay for it!.....Right out of their pay check.
The better off however will be writing off their ticket as a business expense, as will companies.

So it changes to Tax payers paying for it... Not the poor
The tax burden stays the same whether it's built or not, and despite your distorted view, the rich will pay more in tax than the genuinely poor will, who will actually receive more money off the government than they would pay in

Whether it's right to be built or not, via taxes is a separate argument, a very different one than your initial comment

Anyway there's a game of football to concentrate on now, so good evening

[Taffy on the wing]

I know a guy near Wakefield whose house was compulsorily purchased for HST2- at, as it turns out, a not very competitive price. The house has gone but the land won't be used.
He hasnt yet recovered financially or mentally.

Outrageous!

[Stockbrokerbelt]

That's a great price. We can but dream.

You can get them for as little as €16 return out of the main summer & holiday months.

[Stockbrokerbelt]

The state run railway Renfe has a great feedback & reputation, they have different gauge lines in Spain run by private companies. If anyone is or going in the future one trip worth going by rail is San Roque (near Gib) to Ronda, stunning & you can get of on route & just get on the next to Ronda no extra price if you fancy a mooch in some of the villages.

[Claret53]

Speaking as someone who now lives in the SE, the difference between the availability and efficiency of the trains going into London and those going into Manchester or Liverpool is huge.
The costs overrun on HS2 is obscene, but it is a result of our sclerotic planning system and mismanagement on a homeric scale.
However, the idea of a line starting in W Midlands and ending somewhere undefined in London is absurd. The very fact that it is even contemplated is a measure if how badly we are governed.
To see how debased our whole system of government is, it's worth reading Rory Stewart's new book. Combined with Anthony Seldon's book on Johnson's government, it stands as an indictment of our political system. There is very little to recommend the current state of politics.
Don't settle for second best. The North deserves better.

[Rick_Muller]

CANCELLED

[Pickles]

A total farce. Northern Powerhouse, Levelling Up... it's nonsense.

[Bordeauxclaret]

They’ve managed the messaging around it so well in the past five or so days. Top notch.

[Tricky Trevor]

Cam/Os vanity project. Totally unnecessary in Britain from day 1. As mentioned previously so many lives ruined for nothing by the worst governments in living memory.

[Bigbopper]

What is the point of a HST if the drivers are always on strike

[RickyBobby]

Why is HS2 now HST2?
Will it soon be HSLGBTQ++2?

[burnley007]

Maybe you should thank Corbin supporters for inflicting Johnson upon us

Or those that ran David Miliband out because he thought having realistic ambitions was not the "socialist" way?

I knew somebody would find a way to blame Corbyn. Poor guy has had appalling treatment from people in this country. Frankly embarrassing.

[tally]

Beeching would have sorted out at a pen stroke

[RMutt]

Let’s see whether these new northern projects actually happen. And how many are genuinely new? These people have promised us forty new hospitals in the past, few of which have actually been built.
It’s easy these days to kick the can down the road and then later say financial circumstances have changed and we can no longer fulfil our promise. HS2, of course, being a classic of the type.

[Stayingup]

Pros and cons for this. A vanity project really thatnobody asked for. Way, way over budget. Perhaps the line should have been designed and constructed to HS1 standard, which does not require the precision and expensive engineering requirements lelvelness and alignment. Then maybe we should have got the Chinese to build it. It would be up and running now. In fact it would only benefit a very few people. Well it may come back but there is certainly a need to improve travel infrastructure in the North and probably the Midlands. Much has been spent on TFL and its still bankrupt.