Teams faced so far

[Fretters]

Lost against:

City - champions of Europe.
Villa - in Europe.
Spurs - will finish top 6, maybe even top 4
United - in Europe.
Newcastle - in Champions League.
Chelsea - will finish top 6. Spent a billion.

Drawn or beaten:

Forest - will finish around us. Would have beaten but for VAR. Beat them in the cup.
Luton - will finish around us. Beat them.

There's been a lot of doom mongery after yesterday, but we need to remember who this young team and manager have faced so far. The next run of games will show how we'll really do.

[AmbleClaret]

Yes,the next run of fixtures will be so much easier,all those teams will be letting us beat them easily because they've got nothing to play for.

[Fretters]

Yes,the next run of fixtures will be so much easier,all those teams will be letting us beat them easily because they've got nothing to play for.

Odd response. I'm clearly talking about talent levels.

[burnleymik]

I know we have faced some very good teams, but the concern is the way we have collapsed against those teams. Once we went behind I can't remember feeling like we were every going to get back into any of them and it was always a matter of how many we would concede.

I wasn't wholly convinced vs Luton, it was a good job their finishing was very poor IMO, although we did show resolve.

Forest was probably our most complete performance so far.

Vk has a bit of time now to work on it and I genuinely think he will find a way. He is just that type of person IMO.

[AmbleClaret]

Odd response. I'm clearly talking about talent levels.

I'm simply pointing out that they'll be just as tough games, but for different reasons. People seem to think that because we beat Luton we'll walk over the bottom half teams.We won't.

[taio]

Yes,the next run of fixtures will be so much easier,all those teams will be letting us beat them easily because they've got nothing to play for.

A bizarre response to the point that was made

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

Yes,the next run of fixtures will be so much easier,all those teams will be letting us beat them easily because they've got nothing to play for.

Is this a rational, thought out response?
Just asking for a friend.

[Fretters]

I'm simply pointing out that they'll be just as tough games, but for different reasons. People seem to think that because we beat Luton we'll walk over the bottom half teams.We won't.

Fair enough, but I' never suggested that we'd walk over them. Just it's more of a level playing field against the lesser teams and that we've hardly faced any.

[CoolClaret]

Not doubting that but if you want to remain in this division you do need to take some points off the top 8 at home.

When we survived in 16/17 we beat Liverpool, Everton, Southampton at home, and drew to Chelsea at home - all them teams finished in the top 8.

[taio]

Not doubting that but if you want to remain in this division you do need to take some points off the top 8 at home.

When we survived in 16/17 we beat Liverpool, Everton, Southampton at home, and drew to Chelsea at home - all them teams finished in the top 8.

Plenty of time for that

[JR1882]

Whilst the upcoming run is “easier” there is the added element of pressure, all these hammerings mean we MUST pick up some wins now.

Even 2 draws from those 5 home games would have helped immensely but I don’t think we are going to draw many games this season tbh!

[CoolClaret]

Plenty of time for that

Hope so - OP is basically stating that we’ve played 5 out of the sort of ‘predicted’ top 8 at home already.

That leaves three games or day five remaining games against the forecasted ‘top 10’.

Need a few wins and some draws. Don’t look capable of that against the top teams right now.

[ksrclaret]

Yes we have to acknowledge the calibre of opposition we've faced in our six losses, whilst also acknowledging that there have been some very worrying signs in those games.

The way we go to pieces sometimes and the way we attempt to circulate suicidal passes around our own half isn't exclusive to the standard of opposition, that to me seems like an emerging personality trait of this young team and it needs rooting out.

As others have said many times, we need to start going into the centre forward and over the top to our wide men a lot more. That was a feature of our play last season but so far I can't recall many examples of us doing that.

Teams like Crystal Palace and Brentford a clearly a level below what we've faced so far, but they still have huge potential to kill us off if we continue to be so naive. The next 3 games will probably tell us all we need to know about where this team is at.

[taio]

Hope so - OP is basically stating that we’ve played 5 out of the sort of ‘predicted’ top 8 at home already.

That leaves three games or day five remaining games against the forecasted ‘top 10’.

Need a few wins and some draws. Don’t look capable of that against the top teams right now.

'Right now' being key

[Rileybobs]

I’m looking forward to a run where we can realistically compete with the opposition. But narrowing down our potential points haul to just the bottom 8 or so teams is unrealistic as we’re not going to pick up 4 points against all of them.

I think we’re capable of beating the majority of bottom half teams on our day, but we will still be second favourite going into most of those games. We don’t look like we have a clean sheet in us which is quite concerning.

So far however the bottom 4 teams in the league look bobbins, and we only have to be the fourth worst. That said as the season goes on the teams at the bottom inevitably start to pick up points so the bar for survival will still be in the lower to mid thirties.

[JohnMac]

Nostalgia is fantastic and we have at times beaten all the teams we have lost to so far this season but realistically we are currently way behind them in footballing terms.

The jump to the PL is huge and comes without guarantees, even for those who romped the Championship the previous season.

To compete using inexperienced players, mostly kids, several coming to a new Country bare weeks ago was never going to be easy.

We will work through this patch and do enough to remain in the League, of that I'm confident but there will be a few more drubbings along the way.

[Tall Paul]

I'm simply pointing out that they'll be just as tough games, but for different reasons. People seem to think that because we beat Luton we'll walk over the bottom half teams.We won't.

Of course they won't be just as tough. Playing against teams that aren't as good will be easier.

[AmbleClaret]

Of course they won't be just as tough. Playing against teams that aren't as good will be easier.

We aren't "as good",so will be viewed by the others as we view them. I'm simply saying if we continue to play as we are, every game will be tough.

[kenyon6923]

Another point in my opinion was it turned out really good time to play Villa - (had alot of injuries / players out), Man U - (started season poor, plenty of noise and again with Evans playing lots of players out) and Chelsea - (to a degree as they are a bit like us, what's their best 11 and where does everyone play - just happens a player who blows hot and cold in sterling was 10/10. So 0/9 points was poor considering.

[daveisaclaret]

Crazy to claim Chelsea will be top 6. Properly crazy.

[Tall Paul]

We aren't "as good",so will be viewed by the others as we view them. I'm simply saying if we continue to play as we are, every game will be tough.

Yes, every game will be tough, but some (the ones against the better teams) will be tougher than others. That's just a fact.

[Tall Paul]

Crazy to claim Chelsea will be top 6. Properly crazy.

I don't think it's that crazy, their underlying stats have them as the second best team in the league.

[taio]

Crazy to claim Chelsea will be top 6. Properly crazy.

Questionable perhaps but it's hardly a crazy claim

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don't think it's that crazy, their underlying stats have them as the second best team in the league.

What underlying stats?

There is literally only one team in the last 12 months with less points than them (out of the clubs that stayed up). There were bottom of that list before us

[CoolClaret]

What underlying stats?

There is literally only one team in the last 12 months with less points than them (out of the clubs that stayed up). There were bottom of that list before us

Expected points, expected goal difference.

https://understat.com/league/EPL

[daveisaclaret]

They can expect as many points as they want, Chelsea are crap.

[KefkaClaret]

My main problem is Chelsea lost to Forest, drew with Bournemouth and had only scored 7 goals prior to this game and they battered us. It's easy and understandable to say we aren't going to get points against these sides but we aren't even close to getting results against them, only United we probably deserved something.

[CoolClaret]

They can expect as many points as they want, Chelsea are crap.

Like it or not expected points is the best predictor of long term success that is in the game rn.

[daveisaclaret]

Like it or not expected points is the best predictor of long term success that is in the game rn.

We can review this is May when Chelsea finish second and Everton finish fifth then.

[123EasyasBFC]

Lost against:

City - champions of Europe.
Villa - in Europe.
Spurs - will finish top 6, maybe even top 4
United - in Europe.
Newcastle - in Champions League.
Chelsea - will finish top 6. Spent a billion.

Drawn or beaten:

Forest - will finish around us. Would have beaten but for VAR. Beat them in the cup.
Luton - will finish around us. Beat them.

There's been a lot of doom mongery after yesterday, but we need to remember who this young team and manager have faced so far. The next run of games will show how we'll really do.

Isn’t the best time to play those teams we have lost against, early on in the season before they are totally clicking? Also all at home

[CoolClaret]

We can review this is May when Chelsea finish second and Everton finish fifth then.

It doesn’t guarantee that of course but it suggests that Chelsea and Everton are better than the current table suggests - which they most definitely are.

[Pickles]

My main problem is Chelsea lost to Forest, drew with Bournemouth and had only scored 7 goals prior to this game and they battered us. It's easy and understandable to say we aren't going to get points against these sides but we aren't even close to getting results against them, only United we probably deserved something.

My thoughts exactly.

[CoolClaret]

Worth mentioning that if we kept as much as last years Team together as possible there’d still be a lot more unity and ‘alignment’ (to coin a dycheism) between club/fans even if we did have a few heavy losses - though I doubt we’d have conceded so many and given up like we have.

You absolutely ride that wave after promotion and that feel good factor and slowly integrate changes. Making wholesale changes is just naive.

VK is quoted as stating he likes a high turnover of players but which clubs do that consistently and has continuous success with it?

If that worked then it’d be the norm but it isn’t - for good reason.

[Spijed]

My main problem is Chelsea lost to Forest, drew with Bournemouth and had only scored 7 goals prior to this game and they battered us. It's easy and understandable to say we aren't going to get points against these sides but we aren't even close to getting results against them, only United we probably deserved something.

Even though against ten men Luton could have easily snatched a draw with a bit more composure.

[ClaretTony]

Lost against:

City - champions of Europe.
Villa - in Europe.
Spurs - will finish top 6, maybe even top 4
United - in Europe.
Newcastle - in Champions League.
Chelsea - will finish top 6. Spent a billion.

Drawn or beaten:

Forest - will finish around us. Would have beaten but for VAR. Beat them in the cup.
Luton - will finish around us. Beat them.

There's been a lot of doom mongery after yesterday, but we need to remember who this young team and manager have faced so far. The next run of games will show how we'll really do.

But Manchester United were poor and should have been beaten
Chelsea weren't good yesterday

[JohnMcGreal]

Agree with the OP. It's a bit early to be hitting the panic button, however we really do need to cut out the individual errors and stop letting games run away from us when we concede at home.

The international break has come at a good time. We've got a big month or two ahead.

[bumba]

Sick of hearing about the club's we've faced it's boring, United as a brand are massive but this United team and the one we faced were terrible and we didn't have enough to even score against them!
Chelsea are a youth team who didn't play well yesterday.
It isn't who we have played it isn't even the fact we've lost the games it's the manner of the defeats that is worrying and the fact Kompany keeps mentioning learning yet he as a manager and individual players are making repeated mistakes

[Spijed]

Looking at previous seasons, we'd averaged over a point per club against those in the top half, basically taken around 12 points from the top ten at least.

Norwich got nil.

Unless we start to put points on the board against the top half clubs it's pretty much impossible to stop up.

[Swizzlestick]

It is abject nonsense to describe United and Chelsea as ‘terrible’, regardless of their form. All getting a bit Billy big ********. We should have had a result against United, played well - we lost because a fantastic player scored a fantastic goal and missed some good chances. We were poor yesterday but you can’t just write off players like Sterling and Enzo because Chelsea are in a transitional phase (that’s their third win on the spin btw including much vaunted Brighton in the cup).

This isn’t to say we don’t have a lot to improve but let’s not be getting ridiculous about the quality of opposition we’re facing.

[claretspice]

But Manchester United were poor and should have been beaten
Chelsea weren't good yesterday

I don't agree with this re Chelsea. I thought they were pretty good. Their midfield was increasingly coherent as the game wore on, and the front 3 in the second half was very good indeed. They had a bit of a weakness at full back which we exploited a bit in the first half but overall they looked like a team of top class individuals (they are) growing into an increasingly coherent team.

United, I agree, we're pretty average.

[taio]

It is abject nonsense to describe United and Chelsea as ‘terrible’, regardless of their form. All getting a bit Billy big ********. We should have had a result against United, played well - we lost because a fantastic player scored a fantastic goal and missed some good chances. We were poor yesterday but you can’t just write off players like Sterling and Enzo because Chelsea are in a transitional phase (that’s their third win on the spin btw including much vaunted Brighton in the cup).

This isn’t to say we don’t have a lot to improve but let’s not be getting ridiculous about the quality of opposition we’re facing.

I suppose the point about both Man Utd and Chelsea is that when we played them it's the weakest they've been in our PL history and we should have got something out of at least one of those games after good first half performances.

[ClaretTony]

I don't agree with this re Chelsea. I thought they were pretty good. Their midfield was increasingly coherent as the game wore on, and the front 3 in the second half was very good indeed. They had a bit of a weakness at full back which we exploited a bit in the first half but overall they looked like a team of top class individuals (they are) growing into an increasingly coherent team.

United, I agree, we're pretty average.

Worst Chelsea side I've seen at Burnley, nowhere near good enough and we allowed them back into the game. I totally disagree with you.

[quoonbeatz]

The only two results that have been wrong this season are Forest, where we were robbed of 2 points, and United, who we should really have beaten. Amdouni scores his big chance and we'd have won that.

The rest we can have no complaints about. Chelsea are a good side in a false position. They won't be at the top but they will finish a lot higher than us. United were abject.

[Jakubclaret]

I suppose the point about both Man Utd and Chelsea is that when we played them it's the weakest they've been in our PL history and we should have got something out of at least one of those games after good first half performances.

It's equally fair as well when other teams that are supposedly at our level or not far in front or behind are capable of picking up points against them but we haven't. You can say they are quality opposition & argue that we shouldn't be beating them but other teams have found a way despite not being favourites. Some people want to have it both ways dismissing this & not making it accountable.

[taio]

It's equally fair as well when other teams that are supposedly at our level or not far in front or behind are capable of picking up points against them but we haven't. You can say they are quality opposition & argue that we shouldn't be beating them but other teams have found a way despite not being favourites. Some people want to have it both ways dismissing this & not making it accountable.

Yes, and exemplifies Man Utd and Chelsea's weaknesses so far.

[Belial]

Agree with the OP. It's a bit early to be hitting the panic button, however we really do need to cut out the individual errors and stop letting games run away from us when we concede at home.

The international break has come at a good time. We've got a big month or two ahead.

Yeah pretty much sums it up. We've got talent up top but every man and his dog can see each game so far we've put ourselves in trouble and been our own worst enemy. It only takes 1 or 2 great players or individual moments to kill us off... i.e. Sterling yesterday, Fernandez's strike, Almerion's etc. It didn't happen last season but this season is already proving that we're getting punished for misplaced passes or pi55ing about with the ball at the back.

Sort that out and we'll be reight

[Roosterbooster]

Admittedly this is very rudimentary, but if you accept we need 10 win and 10 draws, and split the table up to see where you get them from, we aren't too far behind par

Interestingly, some of the other clubs are miles behind.
Yes, it needs us to actually pick up those points, and we could lose 3 or 4 against the worst 4 or 5 teams and still stay up. But it's not the worst way of seeing how we are doing compared to other teams

[Hipper]

As I posted before, this is how I see The Premier League. It contains three sections: what is now the top seven - City, Man Utd, Newcastle, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool; a middle group of six - Palace (and they looked dire last night without Eze or Olice), Wolves, Brighton, West Ham, Aston Villa, Fulham; and the bottom seven - Luton, Sheff Utd, Us, Bournemouth, Everton, Brentford, Forest.

On that basis, the bottom seven have performed as follows:

Played Group 1 2 3 Points

Forest 4 1 3 9
Everton 1 3 3 7
Brentford 3 2 3 7
Luton 2 4 2 4
Burnley 5 1 2 4
Bournemouth 4 2 2 3
Sheff Utd 3 3 2 1

Points to note:

We've had the toughest start but Bournemouth and Forest haven't had it easy. Everton have.
Forest have achieved what you might expect. The others haven't.

We've got two games against the bottom group and one against Palace (who were woeful last night) coming up.

[Spijed]

Agree with the OP. It's a bit early to be hitting the panic button, however we really do need to cut out the individual errors and stop letting games run away from us when we concede at home.

The international break has come at a good time. We've got a big month or two ahead.

The question is whether VK is willing to grind out results when we have a foothold in games.

[claretspice]

Worst Chelsea side I've seen at Burnley, nowhere near good enough and we allowed them back into the game. I totally disagree with you.

Each to their own Tony. I'm not sure it was the worst Chelsea team I've seen but in any event that isn't a low bar given they've been a consistent top 4 or better team in the years we've been playing them. The front 6 Chelsea deployed in the second half was as good as anything anyone other than City have put up against us - outstanding individuals developing as a team. I thought Caceido and Fernandes, as well as Sterling were terrific and that is also the best I've seen Gallagher play. I think there's an element of expectation that given the general media narrative Chelsea are not gelling, that must still be the case. I am not sure it was true at Fulham, or yesterday. They have weaknesses, most obviously at the back, but they have a good coach and I suspect the trajectory will be to improve as the season goes on.