The Reckoning

[yTib]

i thought jakub only deemed someone to be guilty of anything if he'd personally witnessed it.

or was he talking nonsense for a change?

[Jimmymaccer]

theroux was groomed like many a victim and when faced with this notion on the follow up show he (theroux) totally rejected the idea.

i see some people still put flowers on savile's grave as well which just goes to show his powers of manipulation have followed him into death.

Didn’t the funeral directors remove his headstone and dig him up overnight? Tho wouldn’t surprise me about what you said even if he’s no longer at that spot………………..

[claretonthecoast1882]

The thing is back then you needed something called evidence to back up your suspicions it wasn't trial by twitter or Facebook or other forms of social media, people did suspect but having something 100% concrete to corroborate them suspicions proved more difficult.

Yeah back then there was no evidence nor victims just idle chit chat. Considering in your words that you don't know if Johnson is a liar or not as he hadn't lied to you I am going to presume you don't know for certain if this vile **** is guilty either.

You really should live on the planet your mind exists in.

[Herts Clarets]

Aye you wouldn’t want to risk a new hospital ward in favour for a few hundred people sexually abused.
Last thing you would want to do is jeopardise that charity funding eh

I seem to recall in the aftermath of his death and the subsequent revelations, someone was interviewed who knew what he had been up to and had threatened to report him. The comeback from Savile was who are they going to believe, you as a single member of the public with absolutely no evidence or me as a TV star, DJ and charity fundraiser. You do know i raise £2m a year for Addenbrookes, do you want to be the person responsible for the hospital losing that money? I am guessing that this was not a unique response and how he bullied people into keeping quiet.

[dushanbe]

There were clues all over popular culture as to what he was up to.

Theres a theory that The Smiths song ‘Panic’ could have been about Savile, certainly a case to be made if you listen to it

“On the Leeds side streets that you slip down
Provincial towns you jog 'round”

“Hang the DJ” etc

I remember in the 90s reading ‘Ecstasy’ by Irvine Welsh and being struck by how similar the character Freddy Royle was to Jimmy Savile. That all came out after his death.

[Jakubclaret]

I seem to recall in the aftermath of his death and the subsequent revelations, someone was interviewed who knew what he had been up to and had threatened to report him. The comeback from Savile was who are they going to believe, you as a single member of the public with absolutely no evidence or me as a TV star, DJ and charity fundraiser. You do know i raise £2m a year for Addenbrookes, do you want to be the person responsible for the hospital losing that money? I am guessing that this was not a unique response and how he bullied people into keeping quiet.

Exactly, some people don't realise what the consequences could have been reporting him & bearing in mind some people back then couldn't even be sure. it's not a decision that could have been made lightly when it could have all been a pack of lies & the threat of withdrawing the funding that was desperately needed.

[bobinho]

Not long after Saville’ s death Leeds United came to Turf Moor.
The away fans started singing ‘He’s one of our own’ about one of their players.Instantly our fans replied ‘Jimmy Saville ! He’s one of your own’ That quietened them straightaway !

No it didn’t. Quite the opposite in fact. They replied with the chant “he ***** who he wants, he ***** who he wants, Jimmy saville, he ***** who he wants”.

Saville and Leeds…. They don’t spoil a pair do they?

[Bordeauxclaret]

I think that was met with a reply of
“Jimmy Savile he could be your dad”

Playground stuff but very bleak in the scheme of the whole story.

[gandhisflipflop]

No it didn’t. Quite the opposite in fact. They replied with the chant “he ***** who he wants, he ***** who he wants, Jimmy saville, he ***** who he wants”.

Saville and Leeds…. They don’t spoil a pair do they?

Yes, that what I remember too.

[Venkys4eva]

Didn’t the funeral directors remove his headstone and dig him up overnight? Tho wouldn’t surprise me about what you said even if he’s no longer at that spot………………..

His headstone was removed but due to the way he was buried it wouldnt be possible to remove him. So the grave is now unmarked.

[Anonymous Claret]

John Lydon said everyone knew about Saville and called him out in 1977. All these people at various hospitals and many of his media colleagues knew Saville was a wrong 'un yet the security around the Royal Family and the senior management at the BBC knew nothing of these crimes the sick pervert was committing. Incredible!

[claretonthecoast1882]

John Lydon said everyone knew about Saville and called him out in 1977. All these people at various hospitals and many of his media colleagues knew Saville was a wrong 'un yet the security around the Royal Family and the senior management at the BBC knew nothing of these crimes the sick pervert was committing. Incredible!

And the BBC decided to ban Lydon when he did speak out

[Anonymous Claret]

And the BBC decided to ban Lydon when he did speak out

It stinks of a cover up but I guess we will never know the full truth.

[Hipper]

Refusal to investigate reports and complaints was very clearly nothing to do with a lack of evidence.
In order to find evidence you have to look and the authorities, politicians, BBC, police etc all looked the other way.

Would have been pretty easy to find DNA, eye witnesses and other evidence.

DNA testing first began in 1987 and isn't what it is now.

The culture in those days was different. Mothers wouldn't believe their daughters if they were told, or would likely dismiss it as typical behaviour of people in the music business. The same of course applies to the acting profession - Weinstein etc. - not to mention royalty (maybe!) and other powerful people (e.g. Maxwell). I bet there's many who have got away with things and have somehow covered it up. Not only the 'authorities, politicians, BBC, police etc.' look the other way but so did many individuals who knew first hand what was going on. They too didn't want to rock the boat. Being a whistle blower is often traumatic and comes with lots of negatives for the individual and their family. Far easier to push it to one side.

I haven't watched the programme as I read about it at the time, including the official report. I doubt there's more to learn of this horrible affair.

[Big Vinny K]

Exactly, some people don't realise what the consequences could have been reporting him & bearing in mind some people back then couldn't even be sure. it's not a decision that could have been made lightly when it could have all been a pack of lies & the threat of withdrawing the funding that was desperately needed.

No not “exactly” !!

How can charitable donations take higher precedent than child abuse ?

The issue that has emerged in so many of these cases is that the establishment not only turned a blind eye - it’s far worse than that as many of these were doing the same thing. Look at the Cyril Smith case and many others

[daveisaclaret]

You don't have to argue with a troll about nonces. Nobody is compelling you.

[evensteadiereddie]

If this is alluding to my earlier post, I'll make it clear for those unable to grasp anything beyond the obvious that I said SOME would bring up the "Woke" and cancel culture nonsense if this Savile issue were happening today.
We've seen it recently with Russell Brand, despite what he's said in various types of media, despite the claims of plenty of alleged victims, despite a police investigation, people - however much of a misguided minority - will claim that men like him, and Savile I'd argue, are victims of cancel culture.
Hope that helps, flipflop.

[boatshed bill]

Would someone be kind enough to explain "cancel culture", please.
I genuinely have no idea what it means.

[ŽižkovClaret]

His headstone was removed but due to the way he was buried it wouldn't be possible to remove him. So the grave is now unmarked.

Not sure. AFAIK he was initially buried at a 45 degree angle overlooking Scarborough Bay, however he was dug up and re-buried somewhere more anonymous, which is hinted at with the shot of the field with some flowers on an unmarked grave.

[ŽižkovClaret]

Would someone be kind enough to explain "cancel culture", please.
I genuinely have no idea what it means.

It can be anything from people being rightly called out on heinous ****, Mary Whitehouse-esque puritancialism, or more often, something bellends whine about in their national newspaper columns or in interviews on national broadcasters

[Billy Balfour]

Only seen the first one. Coogan will win awards for this.

Savile had the police in his pocket, even before he came to national prominence. From local plod to prime ministers, right through to the heir to the throne. What chance did working class kids have when it came to their word against his? Same with the ill, the disabled, girls in approved schools, kids home on Jersey and inmates in Broadmoor.

Thatcher made four attempts to give Savile a knighthood before eventually succeeding. To me, this shows that they all knew, apart from the stupid, the hoodwinked, and the wilfully ignorant.

Every time a newspaper got close, he would use his legal team to scare them off. Don't forget, this was back in the day when libel payouts could run into the hundred of thousands, and way over a million with costs. The Sun came close to exposing him in 2008, but backed off when he started legal proceedings.

[arise_sir_charge]

If this is alluding to my earlier post, I'll make it clear for those unable to grasp anything beyond the obvious that I said SOME would bring up the "Woke" and cancel culture nonsense if this Savile issue were happening today.
We've seen it recently with Russell Brand, despite what he's said in various types of media, despite the claims of plenty of alleged victims, despite a police investigation, people - however much of a misguided minority - will claim that men like him, and Savile I'd argue, are victims of cancel culture.
Hope that helps, flipflop.

That’s the thing though; I think there is a huge difference in anonymous adults making allegations against somebody and suggestions of child sexual abuse, abusing vulnerable/disabled folk and sleeping with dead bodies!

I dare say the reaction to Russel brand would be much difference if there was evidence or even suggestions that he’d partaken in such activities.

I’d also argue that anyone, even famous people, that has been accused/found guilty of such crimes has been dealt with appropriately.

[evensteadiereddie]

You may well be correct, however I'm not sure of any huge difference between "anonymous allegations of" and "suggestions of" disgusting behaviour.

[evensteadiereddie]

Sorry, couldn't edit that post to get shut of the misplaced quotation marks...

[Jimmymaccer]

His headstone was removed but due to the way he was buried it wouldnt be possible to remove him. So the grave is now unmarked.

Ah, ok…………

[Venkys4eva]

Not sure. AFAIK he was initially buried at a 45 degree angle overlooking Scarborough Bay, however he was dug up and re-buried somewhere more anonymous, which is hinted at with the shot of the field with some flowers on an unmarked grave.

He was never 'dug up' google it. He was incased in concrete and the cost of him being exhumed was 20k. They tried to raise the money and failed so the grave was left unmarked.

[ChrisG]

There were clues all over popular culture as to what he was up to.

Theres a theory that The Smiths song ‘Panic’ could have been about Savile, certainly a case to be made if you listen to it

“On the Leeds side streets that you slip down
Provincial towns you jog 'round”

“Hang the DJ” etc

I remember in the 90s reading ‘Ecstasy’ by Irvine Welsh and being struck by how similar the character Freddy Royle was to Jimmy Savile. That all came out after his death.

There's a similar theme in Welsh's latest book, The Long Knives.

[Billy Balfour]

Good to see there was a nod to the sainted Bowie and John Peel.

[Ptangyangkipperbang]

There were clues all over popular culture as to what he was up to.

Theres a theory that The Smiths song ‘Panic’ could have been about Savile, certainly a case to be made if you listen to it

“On the Leeds side streets that you slip down
Provincial towns you jog 'round”

“Hang the DJ” etc

I remember in the 90s reading ‘Ecstasy’ by Irvine Welsh and being struck by how similar the character Freddy Royle was to Jimmy Savile. That all came out after his death.

Panic was a reaction to Steve Wright playing a Wham song straight after a news report about Chernobyl disaster which Morrissey and Marr were listening too at the time and were aghast at such a song being played after such a horrible news story.

[Jakubclaret]

No not “exactly” !!

How can charitable donations take higher precedent than child abuse ?

The issue that has emerged in so many of these cases is that the establishment not only turned a blind eye - it’s far worse than that as many of these were doing the same thing. Look at the Cyril Smith case and many others

You say child abuse but you are consistently failing to remember back then the authorities couldn't be sure if it was child abuse or a pack of lies & on that basis the funding couldn't be compromised. They say hindsight is a wonderful thing & it is & for sure mistakes were made & he should have been stopped sooner but I can understand why he wasn't with what was at stake.

[DCWat]

You say child abuse but you are consistently failing to remember back then the authorities couldn't be sure if it was child abuse or a pack of lies & on that basis the funding couldn't be compromised. They say hindsight is a wonderful thing & it is & for sure mistakes were made & he should have been stopped sooner but I can understand why he wasn't with what was at stake.

Hindsight!? Baffling!!

[Big Vinny K]

Holy sh-it
Phrases like a “pack of lies”, “compromised”, “what’s at stake” etc I find incredible.

It’s pretty unanimously accepted that a lot of people knew what he was doing and covered this up deliberately. This was clearly nothing to do with a lack of evidence - he was doing this in plain sight and was actually employing people to guard his dressing room door and instructing others to send young girls to him.

He was reported to bosses and the authorities several times.

There were more than 400 reported cases of abuse and god knows how many unreported. We are talking about abuse by a single person on an industrial level.

But Jakub wants to give all those that covered up these horrors rather than potentially stop hundreds of people being abused the benefit of the doubt.

Even for you it’s an all time low…..and that’s saying something

[TheFamilyCat]

Panic was a reaction to Steve Wright playing a Wham song straight after a news report about Chernobyl disaster which Morrissey and Marr were listening too at the time and were aghast at such a song being played after such a horrible news story.

Although that was the inspiration behind the song, the "Leeds side streets" and "provincial towns" lines do seem very specific and not really in keeping with the rest of the lyrics.

Having said that, Morrissey did write lines and pieced them together into songs so it maybe coincidence that those lines were used as they happened to fit.

Additionally, if it was about Savile, I'm sure Morrissey would be shy about saying so.

[Garnerssoap]

They queued around the queens hotel in leeds while he was lying in state. Lol

[Darnhill Claret]

Maybe someone will be brave enough now to try to tie together the rich and or powerful individuals who engaged in organised and systematic abuse of vulnerable people of all ages. Many rumours that need some brave individuals to come forward and give their accounts. Although a couple of names were dropped in by 'Savile', well he would, wouldn't he. From politicians, to law enforcement, to the judiciary, to the church and to trusted organisations there is still much to uncover, but will anyone in the know blow the whistle? There must be some journalists sitting on explosive stories.

[Jakubclaret]

Hindsight!? Baffling!!

Hindsight meaning the people (non victims) that couldn't be 100% sure at that point in time, I really wish I had the same crystal ball some of you possess & I could hone in the same supernatural clairvoyancy skills I'd be down at the bookies making myself a fortune.

[Billy Balfour]

You don't half pick some strange hills to die on. Then you wonder why some on here give you pelters.

[Jakubclaret]

Or I possibly reserve judgement on things until I can be 100% sure, I'm not defending the people who allowed savile to be continuing doing what he was doing but what I will maintain is that some of them people wouldn't have been 100% sure about him & in effect not complicit.

[DCWat]

Hindsight meaning the people (non victims) that couldn't be 100% sure at that point in time, I really wish I had the same crystal ball some of you possess & I could hone in the same supernatural clairvoyancy skills I'd be down at the bookies making myself a fortune.

I think what you’re missing here, Jakubclaret, is that that there was more smoke than bonfire night.

People were literally turning a blind eye and shutting down any voices that they feared wouldn’t serve them well.

There were various reasons, the positions he held, the power he appeared to yield, the connections that he had.

They were doing so, not because they weren’t sure, but because in the case of the BBC, he was a ratings winner, in hospitals etc. because he brought in piles of charity money etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if ‘some’ of those not acting, from positions of power, were doing so because they too were up to similar things.

I’m not disputing some of the reasons that you are citing, but what I can’t agree with, is that those reasons justify him not being brought to justice many, many years before his death.

[Jakubclaret]

I think what you’re missing here, Jakubclaret, is that that there was more smoke than bonfire night.

People were literally turning a blind eye and shutting down any voices that they feared wouldn’t serve them well.

There were various reasons, the positions he held, the power he appeared to yield, the connections that he had.

They were doing so, not because they weren’t sure, but because in the case of the BBC, he was a ratings winner, in hospitals etc. because he brought in piles of charity money etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if ‘some’ of those not acting, from positions of power, were doing so because they too were up to similar things.

I’m not disputing some of the reasons that you are citing, but what I can’t agree with, is that those reasons justify him not being brought to justice many, many years before his death.

But you wasn't the 1 back then making the decision whether or not to close down a cancer wing in a hospital not being 100% sure about a certain individual other people were. It's unfair to criticise others when we ourselves might have followed that same course of action in them said circumstances.

[DCWat]

Or I possibly reserve judgement on things until I can be 100% sure, I'm not defending the people who allowed savile to be continuing doing what he was doing but what I will maintain is that some of them people wouldn't have been 100% sure about him & in effect not complicit.

So, if you suspected someone that worked for you might be a pedophile, what would you do?

You’re perhaps only 80% sure - you’ve not seen conclusive proof, but you’ve seen enough to have really serious concerns, what would you do?

You do nothing, the person goes on to abuse countless others (ruining lives) you’re not complicit?

[DCWat]

But you wasn't the 1 back then making the decision whether or not to close down a cancer wing in a hospital not being 100% sure about a certain individual other people were. It's unfair to criticise others when we ourselves might have followed that same course of action in them said circumstances.

Ah so it’s Top Trumps now? Cancer trumps pedophilia.

[Jakubclaret]

So, if you suspected someone that worked for you might be a pedophile, what would you do?

You’re perhaps only 80% sure - you’ve not seen conclusive proof, but you’ve seen enough to have really serious concerns, what would you do?

You do nothing, the person goes on to abuse countless others (ruining lives) you’re not complicit?

You might be 80% complicit but you wouldn't be 100% complicit in any hospital deaths if it could be demonstrated that the funding withdrawal led to that, does the other 20% count for anything towards the greater good? That's the balancing job people had to decide upon.

[DCWat]

So, if that was their logic, was that their decision to make?

[yTib]

can someone please take that shovel off jakub and maybe tw@t him with it?

[Jakubclaret]

It certainly wasn't ours but that's not stopping some of us judging them unfairly in my view.

[Big Vinny K]

It’s beyond belief that you are trying to defend people because they might have chosen to continue receiving charity monies for their hospital to potentially save peoples lives before choosing to put a stop to child abuse.

If somebody dies (as lots did and still do) because of a funding issue or lack of hospitals / doctors then that’s nobody who works in a hospitals fault. It’s just the way of the world.

If somebody gets abused and you turn a blind eye or don’t report it or put a stop to it - and you know that it’s happening (as some people very clearly did - that’s not even up for debate now)…..then you are responsible for that abuse and you have made a choice to allow that abuse to happen. Even worse you are actually facilitating it by giving Saville access to vulnerable children and adults.

The way you are trying to justify this is actually quite worrying.

[Bordeauxclaret]

It’s a lot easier when you accept that Jakub is just the latest invention from ablueclaret.

[Jakubclaret]

There is no right & wrong, 2 things - he shouldn't have been doing what he was doing & secondly we shouldn't have been depending on him for his charity work, it's sad that we was so reliant on him for his charity work that he was free to abuse children the way he did. A choice shouldn't have to be made between letting a pervert roam free & letting hospital's go to rack & ruin.

[evensteadiereddie]

So there is actually right and wrong.