20 MPH in Wales

[Jakubclaret]

Except I didn’t have a way of thinking until I found evidence to support that a 20mph speed limit causes less emissions than a 30mph speed limit. You appear to be projecting, and as ever it’s of great comfort to my confidence in this argument to be on the opposite side to you.

So that article automatically supercedes other experienced drivers arguing differently, you've given the game away with the word "found" you have purposely searched for something to align itself with your way of thinking & presented it as a evidence, I won't even ask if you have thoroughly & diligently researched the article you claim as evidence.

[Rileybobs]

So that article automatically supercedes other experienced drivers arguing differently, you've given the game away with the word "found" you have purposely searched for something to align itself with your way of thinking & presented it as a evidence, I won't even ask if you have thoroughly & diligently researched the article you claim as evidence.

Yes of course that study supersedes what a single person told Lowbank when he bought a car off him.

If I type in ‘less emissions at 30mph than 20mph’ the study I posted is the second link. And as far as I can see, every link on the first page suggests that emissions are less at 20mph than 30mph. And yes, I did read the study that I posted before I did so. I’m not sure why you would expect me to diligently research it.

What is strange and hypocritical beyond belief is that someone who is accusing someone else of making their mind up about something, and finding evidence to support that view, is dismissing the evidence when put in front of their eyes. But never change kiddo.

[aggi]

You have to bear in mind that Jakubclaret puts far more weight on anecdotes and what he reckons is right than actual science.

[Rileybobs]

You have to bear in mind that Jakubclaret puts far more weight on anecdotes and what he reckons is right than actual science.

Of course. And I have little intention of wasting any more time discussing with him. I just thought I’d put it straight that I have no dog in this fight, but the evidence points in one direction and a google search deliberately looking for the opposite result still points the same way.

[Jakubclaret]

Of course. And I have little intention of wasting any more time discussing with him. I just thought I’d put it straight that I have no dog in this fight, but the evidence points in one direction and a google search deliberately looking for the opposite result still points the same way.

It's very easy to find opposing views, but I personally find more value in the opinions of people who have spent years behind the steering wheel than somebody fresh out of university who's studied some data & still catches the bus/train. 1 of the problems this country has is we listen to the so called experts too much & don't listen to wise experience.

[claret2018]

Let’s be honest who actually does 20 in a 20 zone. Its going to make barely any difference, but some people need something in their life to be angry about, and this is the latest thing the Mail has told them to.

[Quicknick]

Does my degree in Spanish equal three CSEs

Si

[Quicknick]

Except I didn’t have a way of thinking until I found evidence to support that a 20mph speed limit causes less emissions than a 30mph speed limit. You appear to be projecting, and as ever it’s of great comfort to my confidence in this argument to be on the opposite side to you.

Only it's Jakubclaret that has got it right.

[Rileybobs]

Only it's Jakubclaret that has got it right.

I already asked you to back up your baseless opinion with some evidence but you failed to do so. But if you’re content enough that Jakubclaret is an ally then good luck to you sir.

[Quicknick]

I already asked you to back up your baseless opinion with some evidence but you failed to do so. But if you’re content enough that Jakubclaret is an ally then good luck to you sir.

I've got better things to do than find links to research to back me up. It's there, though. You believe what you want. Keep taking the bus/cycling/walking, whatever.

[Rileybobs]

I've got better things to do than find links to research to back me up. It's there, though. You believe what you want. Keep taking the bus/cycling/walking, whatever.

It seems a little bit like you don’t have better things to do and that you’ve probably looked but found that you’re wrong. Personally I would have admitted so, or at the least I would have stopped digging. Oh, and I drive, and have done so for over 20 years. Not sure why you would think I don’t, or how it would invalidate my argument in any case.

[dsr]

The study I posted contains evidence which disproves your theory that driving at 30mph results in less emissions than driving at 20mph. What evidence do you have to back up your claim?

Unfortunately it doesn't. What it proves (or provides evidence for, at least) is that under London driving conditions, a 20mph limit is better for emissions than a 30mph limit. This is not the same as saying that travelling a set distance at 20mph gives off fewer emissions than the same distance at 30mph.

On roads which are clogged up and have regular jams and stop-start traffic, 20mph may be better. On clear urban roads with decently moving traffic, it isn't.

[Taffy on the wing]

Thanks for the advice. Over 50 years of driving from Lambrettas to JCBs on our roads and I never knew about mirrors.

Maybe you're just unlucky.....& it's always the other drivers fault.
Six crashes (or thereabouts) is quite a lot.

[Rileybobs]

Unfortunately it doesn't. What it proves (or provides evidence for, at least) is that under London driving conditions, a 20mph limit is better for emissions than a 30mph limit. This is not the same as saying that travelling a set distance at 20mph gives off fewer emissions than the same distance at 30mph.

On roads which are clogged up and have regular jams and stop-start traffic, 20mph may be better. On clear urban roads with decently moving traffic, it isn't.

Well obviously the driving conditions in each town will differ. But in built up areas there is often traffic, and stopping and starting at junctions so this should naturally be taken into account. I don’t think the argument here is that driving x miles at exactly 20mph creates less emissions than driving the same amount of miles at exactly 30mph, because that isn’t a real-world scenario.

[dsr]

Well obviously the driving conditions in each town will differ. But in built up areas there is often traffic, and stopping and starting at junctions so this should naturally be taken into account. I don’t think the argument here is that driving x miles at exactly 20mph creates less emissions than driving the same amount of miles at exactly 30mph, because that isn’t a real-world scenario.

That was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.

I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.

[Quicknick]

It seems a little bit like you don’t have better things to do and that you’ve probably looked but found that you’re wrong. Personally I would have admitted so, or at the least I would have stopped digging. Oh, and I drive, and have done so for over 20 years. Not sure why you would think I don’t, or how it would invalidate my argument in any case.

Sorry, I thought I'd read that you don't drive. My mistake. I was skimming things.

[agreenwood]

Non-football thread checklist:

The usual posters

The stances you can predict they’ll take before even opening it

Tone turns arsey early

At least 3 pages long

Deleted -TBC

[claretonthecoast1882]

If I had to name a poster who would have been the 1 that had somebody who disagreed with this drive from Wales to buy a car off him it would have been a list of 1 and I would have been right.

Weird how lowbank is always involved in someway, be that anything from the then Burnley manager asking him for advice with training to a motorist angry at being told to drive slower then driving from Wales to Burnley to buy a car.

[Rileybobs]

That was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.

I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.

I haven’t offered a view on whether I think Wales have made the correct decision in reducing the speed limit. I’ve just debunked some of the popular arguments against the decision, namely that journeys will take much longer (they won’t) and that vehicle emissions will increase (they won’t).

It’s not that I even hold an opinion, I’ve just posted a link to a detailed study with actual evidence. There are a number of others published by the Welsh government with similar findings. So it’s hilarious, but not surprising, that these are being ignored due to pre-conceived beliefs - and then attempts to discredit the counter-argument with personal remarks and incorrect claims such as ‘fresh out of university’ or ‘you don’t drive’.

Unfortunately this is where we’re at with discourse in this country.

[boatshed bill]

Maybe you're just unlucky.....& it's always the other drivers fault.
Six crashes (or thereabouts) is quite a lot.

Some strange assumptions again.
I'd say that 1 minor incident (nobody injured) per decade is a pretty good record.
And I haven't said it was the other drivers' faults, I'd say about 50-50.

[Jakubclaret]

That was exactly quicknick's argument that started this whole kerfuffle. You hold an opinion, Quicknick (and later Jakub) holds an opinion, and there is no point trying to prove each other wrong because there is every possibility that you might both be right. Your opinions don't contradict each other.

I don't think that studies applying to London can automatically be extended to every city, town and village in the UK. In many places (eg. Colne) the residential streets are 20mph and the trunk roads or through routes are 30mph, which seems very sensible and it isn't controversial. Where Wales (and Scotland) have gone wrong is in taking it to the nth degree and extending the 20mph limits even to dual carriageway A roads, if they go through even the non-residential of a town.

Precisely, but there's no reasoning when 1 particular poster is that way out & on 1. An articles been found which ticks all the boxes there are to be ticked & that article is correct despite roads being different, towns & cities different & driving conditions different, it's an article which supports a certain view & it cannot be deviated away from despite the variety of different circumstances which pertain to the subject in question.

[atlantalad]

The ‘driving at 20 mph is more efficient and gives less emissions’ stance is totally illogical. IC engines have an efficient operating speed ( fuel consumption v’s rpm). Add in the effect of hearing and mass of car and you should end up with an optimum speed for each car.

Just think of it logically- if driving at 20 mph for say 30 miles gives off less emissions than 30 mph then, according to this logic driving at 1 mph should give off even less emissions and, taking to nth degree - letting the car engine idle while stationery will give off even less emissions.

[atlantalad]

Gearing

[boatshed bill]

Road safety would be improved if banners and other advertising/unnecessary signage were removed from all roads. They are a major distraction.

[Rileybobs]

The ‘driving at 20 mph is more efficient and gives less emissions’ stance is totally illogical. IC engines have an efficient operating speed ( fuel consumption v’s rpm). Add in the effect of hearing and mass of car and you should end up with an optimum speed for each car.

Just think of it logically- if driving at 20 mph for say 30 miles gives off less emissions than 30 mph then, according to this logic driving at 1 mph should give off even less emissions and, taking to nth degree - letting the car engine idle while stationery will give off even less emissions.

But realistically you don't drive at 20mph for 30 miles. You accelerate up to 20mph and decelerate to a stop numerous times during that 30 mile journey - not that many journeys would be a 20mph limit for 30 miles. Just read the study I posted, it explains this, and uses real-world testing as opposed to flawed 'logic'.

[Firthy]

But realistically you don't drive at 20mph for 30 miles. You accelerate up to 20mph and decelerate to a stop numerous times during that 30 mile journey - not that many journeys would be a 20mph limit for 30 miles. Just read the study I posted, it explains this, and uses real-world testing as opposed to flawed 'logic'.

Too many variables. Depends on how fast you accelerate, how many times you have to stop etc. The difference in fuel consumption and emissions between 20 and 30 is negligible but the total emissions doing the same the same length of journey will be worse at 20 because the journey takes longer.

[Burnley Ace]

Have you read all 4 main manifesto for the next UK election??
My advise do not miss a 12 word sentence, might come back to bite you..

What are they meant to do, they discuss it, consult on it, mention it at Conference and put it in their Manifesto. If people can’t be arsed to read it then don’t complain when something in it actually happens.

[Big Vinny K]

I haven’t offered a view on whether I think Wales have made the correct decision in reducing the speed limit. I’ve just debunked some of the popular arguments against the decision, namely that journeys will take much longer (they won’t)

I have family in North Wales (both in the police) and right now the facts of the matters are that journeys are taking much longer.
Whether this will calm down in the future and return to a bit of normality time will tell but at the moment those people that have to live with daily are not happy about it.

[FCBurnley]

Just ban cars completely. Force people to walk. Don’t allow them to fart. Saves lives and money. Perfect planet

[aggi]

Too many variables. Depends on how fast you accelerate, how many times you have to stop etc. The difference in fuel consumption and emissions between 20 and 30 is negligible but the total emissions doing the same the same length of journey will be worse at 20 because the journey takes longer.

When it was modelled you needed something like an average of minimum of 900m at uninterrupted 30mph to make it more efficient than 20mph (obviously for an ICE, hybrids and EVs are more efficient at lower speeds). For anyone with a basic understanding of physics this isn't too surprising as the relationship is the square of the speed so accelerating up to 30mph requires 2.25 times more energy (fuel consumption) than accelerating up to 20mph. There's not many urban journeys where you get such clear routes with no junctions, traffic lights, crossings, etc.

[Rileybobs]

When it was modelled you needed something like an average of minimum of 900m at uninterrupted 30mph to make it more efficient than 20mph (obviously for an ICE, hybrids and EVs are more efficient at lower speeds). For anyone with a basic understanding of physics this isn't too surprising as the relationship is the square of the speed so accelerating up to 30mph requires 2.25 times more energy (fuel consumption) than accelerating up to 20mph. There's not many urban journeys where you get such clear routes with no junctions, traffic lights, crossings, etc.

I fear that, like myself, you're wasting your time. This is all in the study that people are telling me is wrong and is trumped by their 'logic'. And yes, EV's are certainly more efficient at 20mph than 30mph.

[Jakubclaret]

I fear that, like myself, you're wasting your time. This is all in the study that people are telling me is wrong and is trumped by their 'logic'. And yes, EV's are certainly more efficient at 20mph than 30mph.

The fundamental error with that study as DSR tried pointing out is that London doesn't cover all the environmental factors of the UK as an whole country. The united kingdoms transport infrastructure doesn't start & end in London you have other cities & towns & within them urban & rural areas with all different types of vehicles using them.

[JTClaret]

It's 20mph for large parts of Fleetwood.
Got to admit, it feels unnecessarily slow.

[Jakubclaret]

It's 20mph for large parts of Fleetwood.
Got to admit, it feels unnecessarily slow.

The amounderness way & A585 can be a bottleneck at certain times especially around the river wyre pub. I'm not quite sure what they are doing there but I know the egyptians built pyramids with their bare hands quicker.

[Stalbansclaret]

Yep…. I drive that way all the time. You have to hope the River Wyre pub got a massive compensation payment from someone otherwise it’s a miracle they are still trading. The main activity that goes on around that stretch of road is rearranging the hundreds of traffic cones into ever more elaborate patterns.

[Rick_Muller]

it's when they find out someone involved in the decision making process also has shares in the Welsh sign making firm that you need to start digging...

[disclaimer - this is a joke and does not make any allegations at all]

[Taffy on the wing]

Some strange assumptions again.
I'd say that 1 minor incident (nobody injured) per decade is a pretty good record.
And I haven't said it was the other drivers' faults, I'd say about 50-50.

To be fair i did say maybe... I've never had a crash in almost 50 yrs driving, maybe i'm just lucky.

[aggi]

I fear that, like myself, you're wasting your time. This is all in the study that people are telling me is wrong and is trumped by their 'logic'. And yes, EV's are certainly more efficient at 20mph than 30mph.

Yes, I'm well aware that for some on here actual physics is trumped by what Bob down the pub said.

[boatshed bill]

To be fair i did say maybe... I've never had a crash in almost 50 yrs driving, maybe i'm just lucky.

Not even a tiny bump?
I hit a badger once, that counts as one of mine.

[Lowbankclaret]

I fear that, like myself, you're wasting your time. This is all in the study that people are telling me is wrong and is trumped by their 'logic'. And yes, EV's are certainly more efficient at 20mph than 30mph.

Did the study realise that loads of journeys would be spent doing less than 15 mph in grid lock.
If a journey took 20 minutes before and now it takes 50 minutes, you’re going to use more fuel.
That even applies to an electric car, probably even worse in an electric car in winter, lights and heating on. With its cold efficiency being worse as well.

[Jakubclaret]

Yes, I'm well aware that for some on here actual physics is trumped by what Bob down the pub said.

I know this might sound like an alien concept to you, but some of us just call it plain common sense you either it or you don't & you my friend are clearly lacking.

[Rileybobs]

Did the study realise that loads of journeys would be spent doing less than 15 mph in grid lock.
If a journey took 20 minutes before and now it takes 50 minutes, you’re going to use more fuel.
That even applies to an electric car, probably even worse in an electric car in winter, lights and heating on. With its cold efficiency being worse as well.

Yes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.

I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.

[Lowbankclaret]

Yes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.

I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.

Yea get that , scenario planning never really predicts the reality.
It’s getting so much bad press, it will be overturned.

[Lowbankclaret]

Yes, the study accounted for the fact that a lot of journeys through built up areas include a level of congestion and stopping and starting, and that the average speed across a journey is far less than the actual speed limit.

I doubt they modelled a situation where a journey that took 20 minutes with a 30mph limit then took 50 minutes with a 20mph limit because it’s just not a realistic scenario.

RR used modelling for a new turbine blade facility in Derby.
Made all the employees sign new contracts .
Shut the old facility, opened the new one.
Two weeks later after the new facility had made no blades.
They re opened the old one, moved everyone back.
Took real engineers a year to get the new facility back open and another year to transition across.

You cannot model real issues.

Making every 30 mph to a 20 just is not going to work.

[Roosterbooster]

I'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me

[Rileybobs]

You cannot model real issues.

Well, you obviously can.

[aggi]

I'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me

Having applied some common sense to this I reckon it will take a smidge under 3 days.

[Roosterbooster]

I'm going to test this issue of a 20mph speed limit taking so much longer on my way home from work later. Waze says it should take 14 minutes. I will not go above 20mph in the 30mph zones and see how long it takes me

In an entirely unexpected/unbelievable/predictable turn of events....

It took me exactly 14 minutes

[evensteadiereddie]

And that ties in with exactly what I experienced in Snowdonia and Anglesey.
In normal driving conditions ie no traffic jams - which would cost you time anyway - it made no noticeable difference.
Those claiming times are doubled or whatever have a political agenda and are not interested in the reality.

[CaptJohn]

The feedback I'm getting from people who live in Wales is that journeys are taking longer but strangely enough traffic jams are taking place in areas where there were none before. I feel that some of this will be due to people adapting to the new regulations but I'm still of the opinion that apart from schools and heavily pedestrianised areas 20mph is too damned slow. I set my cruise control at 20mph and the engine handled it fine but an old lady on a motorised cart waved as she sped past and cyclists were getting agitated behind me