Let’s make Turf Moor a fortress again…

[DCWat]

Your last paragraph has nailed it for me.

One of my highlights of Dyches tenure was watching players like Tarks crunch players like Zaha.

We are desperately missing some bite. We have half as many yellow cards as spurs for example

I definitely don’t see a real leader in the team.

[TPClaret]

Would love the Turf to become a cauldron, but let's have it right here, when the team we've got is wetter than a reservoir, it ain't going to happen.

Maybe the players need the fans more than ever right now. Instead of calling them why not back them

[jedi_master]

Interesting they’ve sent this out just as our tough run of home games has ended. Why didn’t they send this out last season? Was it because we were winning every week and thus the atmosphere was ‘coincidentally’ great? If we beat Palace in a few weeks the atmosphere will be bouncing too. Turf Moor has not needed a drum to push an atmosphere at any point in its history, why does the current fanbase apparently require one now?

Just imagine we had been drumming since the start of the season. It wouldn’t have affected the results one iota for starters, but would the atmosphere be great having someone rat-a-tat-tatting whilst watching City go 0-3 up, Spurs go 1-5 up or Chelsea go 1-4 up? Is that what we have been missing this season? Why should the fans be made to feel guilty for paying a large amount of money to sell out game in game out but not make much noise after going behind whilst witnessing the horror shows that we have (barring United 1st half)? Fans and players drive each other onwards - the atmosphere has been absolutely fine at the games whilst there has been a goal in it, intensity and belief then drops off a cliff as games have run away from us (which is exactly the same for the players on the pitch themselves).

[Vegas Claret]

From what you saw on tv.

actually, more so from what I was told from the lads who go. You keep banging that dumb **** drum though.

[jrgbfc]

people saying it's about results, it's not - it wasn't good in quite a few games last season when we were beating everyone.

Some games last season were too easy! We need a happy medium of not getting hammered but not winning too easily

[ksrclaret]

Maybe the players need the fans more than ever right now. Instead of calling them why not back them

I back them 100% when I’m on the Turf.

I’m explaining why the atmosphere it shite though.

[NewClaret]

The way we've been playing I'd happily take "you only sing when you don't concede four goals at home!"

I’d accept this argument if the atmosphere was good before we started conceding goals or even before the match starts. At Chelsea we were leading and very competitive in the first half and it was still ****e!

[daveisaclaret]

My other thought on all this is that I'm starting to think VK and ALK are wanting the fans to create an atmosphere that we are never going to. I've always thought that when VK talked about making the place "hell" he was just trying to gee the fans up but I'm now starting to think he really thinks it's possible.

I've been going on about 25 years and when it's at its loudest (Spurs league cup semi, 1-0 v United) it's a great atmosphere. The truth is that the atmosphere at Turf Moor will never, ever be like that for an average 3pm Saturday kickoff no matter what anyone does.

There's been a lot of focus on what the atmosphere has been like and with most people agreeing a drummer won't help and the leading cause of the lull is the performances and results. But if the club seriously want to create a "hell" like atmosphere that you'd associate with some European clubs, they're in fantasy land.

[RVclaret]

Hmmm…. not sure only drawing games at the start of last season is the same as being tubbed conceding fours and fives. The problem is the game is usually over by the last quarter, if we were actually still in the game the atmosphere would be better.

Ironically the atmosphere when we were 5-1 down against Spurs and most fair weathers had left was the best it’s been all season.

[northernpowerhouse]

Isn't this just modern football? I don't think it's specific to us. The average age of match attending fans is over 40 now compared to around 18 back in the sixties. At the end of the day lots of older fans are season ticket holders here to sit and watch the game, not youngsters wanting to get rowdy and shout their heads off. Nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is. If the owners are serious about tackling it they need to increase capacity and give under 25's cheap tickets. Failing that give everyone a free drink before the match and at half time.

[NewClaret]

But if the club seriously want to create a "hell" like atmosphere that you'd associate with some European clubs, they're in fantasy land.

I agree with your point, but think that’s a shame, given we’re a small town club fighting the big boys. It’d be great if we could create a similar atmosphere.

VK said the same in his presser today - English atmospheres are different to Europe where they chant for 90 minutes come what may.

I’m against a drum but if it led to more of an atmosphere like you get in Europe I may be able to get my head around it.

[CoolClaret]

My other thought on all this is that I'm starting to think VK and ALK are wanting the fans to create an atmosphere that we are never going to. I've always thought that when VK talked about making the place "hell" he was just trying to gee the fans up but I'm now starting to think he really thinks it's possible.

I've been going on about 25 years and when it's at its loudest (Spurs league cup semi, 1-0 v United) it's a great atmosphere. The truth is that the atmosphere at Turf Moor will never, ever be like that for an average 3pm Saturday kickoff no matter what anyone does.

There's been a lot of focus on what the atmosphere has been like and with most people agreeing a drummer won't help and the leading cause of the lull is the performances and results. But if the club seriously want to create a "hell" like atmosphere that you'd associate with some European clubs, they're in fantasy land.

I think after seeing the parade at the end of last season they think it’s possible.

Turfcast on Twitter raised a good point - re: in terms of deciding to sell all the home tickets at once at the start of the season (and the price of them for that matter).

Point is - there’s a lot of folk in on matchday that aren’t loyal fans right now and that’s fact

[NewClaret]

Ironically the atmosphere when we were 5-1 down against Spurs and most fair weathers had left was the best it’s been all season.

That is very true. That was the most enjoyable atmosphere all season, and the loudest, with half the crowd.

The early emptying seemed to galvanise the crowd left on that day and I was definitely the most hoarse I’ve been all season the next day.

[TPClaret]

We really are becoming an only sing when your winning set of fans.

[123EasyasBFC]

Being 1-0 down and not signing is something but when you start second half 1-1 and before you know it, your 3-1 down what does Pace or whoever came up with this email expect the fans to sing about.

Try not cash grabbing by putting every home game on sale before start of season, too many people in the home end this season who are there to watch the opposition and not there for Burnley

[jedi_master]

We really are becoming an only sing when your winning set of fans.

We’re not becoming anything - Turf Moor has been the same for the last 30 years. We have never been this all encompassing wall of noise or a ‘tough place to go’ (a throwaway comment that seems to be applied to Burnley on the basis of it being a deprived North West Town with **** weather more than the atmosphere within). It’s always been a crowd that runs in parallel with the performances on the pitch - you sometimes get a decent atmosphere via gallows humour on the odd occasion that we’re getting pummelled (I remember it being laughably great as we lost 4-7 to Watford and 2-7 to Wednesday, for example) but by and large it’s shite when the team isn’t performing or is consistently losing. I don’t think that is something that is easily changed.

Away fans? Different matter entirely.

[StayingDown4Ever]

actually, more so from what I was told from the lads who go. You keep banging that dumb **** drum though.

You’d like me to bang that “dumb **** drum” on the Turf wouldn’t you to make this faux atmosphere you clearly desire to hear through your tv speakers

[123EasyasBFC]

Kompany has said himself we haven’t put together a full 100 minute performance, when they do then the fans might to

[Chester Perry]

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Interesting from an ownership group that has shown little interest in the 2% (match going legacy fans) and has sought to engage with and know the key data of the 98% so that they can make lots of money for themselves

[Vegas Claret]

You’d like me to bang that “dumb **** drum” on the Turf wouldn’t you to make this faux atmosphere you clearly desire to hear through your tv speakers

banter aside, we don't need a bloody drum, but it needs to be improved. We ask the lads to give everything and yet some of those in the stands don't reciprocate.

[ksrclaret]

banter aside, we don't need a bloody drum, but it needs to be improved. We ask the lads to give everything and yet some of those in the stands don't reciprocate.

I completely understand the desire to create a better atmosphere because it is shite right now, but come on.

The players get paid tens of thousands each week to give everything on a Saturday, and the fans pay their own money to watch it. This isn't an equal partnership. Totally fine as far as I'm concerned if some fans want to sit quietly and just observe the game, rather than screaming for 90 minutes even when 3-0 down.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not sure how we would organise it but I think the all the fans should remain deathly silent for the whole match. I reckon it would confuse the opposition fans and players so much that we would be 3 or 4 up before they managed to work out what was going on.

I have emailed this suggestion to Mr Pace though also did tell him I thought the drummer was a good idea and backed by the silent majority

[Swizzlestick]

Sick and tired of the fanbase being blamed for the team's failings to be honest with you. Thought the e-mail was patronising, especially after across the board price rises in the summer. Could the atmosphere be better - yes, probably - but it's being killed by scratchy performances and the team being overwhelmed, often in short spells. I agree there's been too many changes to the starting XI and it's difficult for both players and fans to get things going. Not sure a fan wide e-mail saying 'most supporters would agree that the atmosphere at the Turf has fallen flat' (would they? What's that based on? Did they do a poll?), essentially digging out the fans who spend a lot on the club, is the way forward.

[ArnoldBenson]

There is a disconnect with the players due to to a 2nd season of high recruitment. Tell, Zarouri, and Benson etc won the fans over quickly last season due to performances but also their enthusiasm to celebrate success with the fans. It's difficult for the recent recruits to share similar enthusiasm when there has been little success to celebrate.
I also feel there has been a disconnect with both Sean Dyche and Vincent Kompany. The are both very intelligent people who would almost certainly have been a success in other walks of life. But sometimes that intelligence gives an impression of aloofness that fans don't relate to. Some of the best atmospheres I have experienced were with Mullen (in the early days) and Coyle. Dyche and Kompany are/will be far better Managers but don't seem to relate to fans the same despite the successes both have enjoyed.

[Swizzlestick]

I don't think Kompany gives off an air of aloofness at all, quite the opposite in fact.

[ArnoldBenson]

I don't think Kompany gives off an air of aloofness at all, quite the opposite in fact.

Probably bad terminology on my part. I respect his honesty in pre match conferences and post match interviews and I hope he's our Manager for a few years yet. I just feel that, speaking for myself as a fairly basic person, some Managers are more relatable than others. This doesn't necessarily mean that relatability makes them good long term managers, but sometimes helps towards the atmosphere in the short term. Usually ends in tears though.

[Chester Perry]

To be honest this is a problem of football's own making

most owners are not interested in 'legacy fans' (as they refer to them) because they make very little money from them (legacy fans tend to reject the commercialisation of the game), but as the TV companies know, it is the legacy fans that create the soundtrack and engagement to the product they are selling to the armchair fans, which is why they backed the fixed price away ticket.

The same thing that attracts the armchair fan brings the occasional match going fan who on their occasional will spend more in the club shop, fanzone and concourses in a single visit than many legacy fans in a season - this is the dichotomy of modern football with its new owners looking to build asset value for their own gain as opposed to a core supporter base that prefer their traditions and ideally being able to group together as they once could on the terraces, as they do in their familiar haunts before and after matches - often making their own entertainment.

It is not just a new owner thing, it is years of clubs and leagues slowly squeezing and rinsing those that kept their clubs and the game alive in the dark times

[Swizzlestick]

Probably bad terminology on my part. I respect his honesty in pre match conferences and post match interviews and I hope he's our Manager for a few years yet. I just feel that, speaking for myself as a fairly basic person, some Managers are more relatable than others. This doesn't necessarily mean that relatability makes them good long term managers, but sometimes helps towards the atmosphere in the short term. Usually ends in tears though.

I get what you're saying. Kompany has surprised me with how open and honest he's been. He related this difficult period back to an even more difficult time he had at Hamburg, where he was struggling with injury and lost his mum in the same period - it was really quite moving and just lifted away the PL intensity for a brief period. I think the issue, if you can call it that, with both Dyche and Kompany is that they have been so successful with us that it sanitises the connection in some ways, allied with the modern game generally. You maybe lose that 'us against the world' mentality - perhaps we need to regain that now. I must admit, Dyche did seem a little 'detached' from the club, but maybe that's no bad thing - he's here to do a job and get results, and that's what he achieved.

[CoolClaret]

To be honest this is a problem of football's own making

most owners are not interested in 'legacy fans' (as they refer to them) because they make very little money from them (legacy fans tend to reject the commercialisation of the game), but as the TV companies know, it is the legacy fans that create the soundtrack and engagement to the product they are selling to the armchair fans, which is why they backed the fixed price away ticket.

The same thing that attracts the armchair fan brings the occasional match going fan who on their occasional will spend more in the club shop, fanzone and concourses in a single visit than many legacy fans in a season - this is the dichotomy of modern football with its new owners looking to build asset value for their own gain as opposed to a core supporter base that prefer their traditions and ideally being able to group together as they once could on the terraces, as they do in their familiar haunts before and after matches - often making their own entertainment.

It is not just a new owner thing, it is years of clubs and leagues slowly squeezing and rinsing those that kept their clubs and the game alive in the dark times

Totally agree CP, reasons why I dislike our ownership model and current method of operating - and it’s another reason why I want the super league to come and we can actually return to have a functioning and proper football pyramid.

[Vegas Claret]

I completely understand the desire to create a better atmosphere because it is shite right now, but come on.

The players get paid tens of thousands each week to give everything on a Saturday, and the fans pay their own money to watch it. This isn't an equal partnership. Totally fine as far as I'm concerned if some fans want to sit quietly and just observe the game, rather than screaming for 90 minutes even when 3-0 down.

well me and my mates managed it when we were 2-0 at Southend after 10 minutes etc etc etc etc. You pay your money you have your choice and everyone is different. The club are asking for help for a reason......

[ksrclaret]

well me and my mates managed it when we were 2-0 at Southend after 10 minutes etc etc etc etc. You pay your money you have your choice and everyone is different. The club are asking for help for a reason......

Fair enough

[CrosspoolClarets]

I don't think Kompany gives off an air of aloofness at all, quite the opposite in fact.

I love the guy, but he has a weakness, which is his tendency to say things like “I have played in this league for 11 years…..” then probably thinks “so I am the only one qualified to state an opinion on this matter”.

Comes across as aloofness, but is probably insecurity being very young in a job of this scale. I’ve met loads of people like this before in big roles while young.

Not a problem, I think he’ll achieve good things with us in the next 2-3 years, but he just needs to chill a bit and not make too much effort to look on top of everything.

[CrosspoolClarets]

To be honest this is a problem of football's own making

most owners are not interested in 'legacy fans' (as they refer to them) because they make very little money from them (legacy fans tend to reject the commercialisation of the game), but as the TV companies know, it is the legacy fans that create the soundtrack and engagement to the product they are selling to the armchair fans, which is why they backed the fixed price away ticket.

The same thing that attracts the armchair fan brings the occasional match going fan who on their occasional will spend more in the club shop, fanzone and concourses in a single visit than many legacy fans in a season - this is the dichotomy of modern football with its new owners looking to build asset value for their own gain as opposed to a core supporter base that prefer their traditions and ideally being able to group together as they once could on the terraces, as they do in their familiar haunts before and after matches - often making their own entertainment.

It is not just a new owner thing, it is years of clubs and leagues slowly squeezing and rinsing those that kept their clubs and the game alive in the dark times

Agree with the sentiment but would prefer a line like “ most owners are not interested in 'legacy fans' (as they refer to them) because they NAIVELY THINK THEY make very little money from them”.

I tend to think it is the legacy fans who create value by driving their team to achieve big things, e.g. our promotion last season which may be a bad example given the winning margin but our support, away in particular, helped drive them over the line.

That is why the traditional “legacy clubs” with a hard core fanbase, many of whom would die for their club, tend to do well these days.

A few outliers like Brentford and Brighton, achieved with very clever and wealthy owners, doesn’t disprove that.

So, to get back on topic, I feel the legacy fans are the key, and our owners need to nurture them which, to be fair, they seem to be trying to do. As I wrote on the other thread the way to do that is to maximise the CFS, shuffle the away fans somewhere else with a lower allocation, tell the safety authorities to stuff their seat sale restrictions and try to make that end like our away end always is, as it will be on Saturday.

[Swizzlestick]

I love the guy, but he has a weakness, which is his tendency to say things like “I have played in this league for 11 years…..” then probably thinks “so I am the only one qualified to state an opinion on this matter”.

Comes across as aloofness, but is probably insecurity being very young in a job of this scale. I’ve met loads of people like this before in big roles while young.

Not a problem, I think he’ll achieve good things with us in the next 2-3 years, but he just needs to chill a bit and not make too much effort to look on top of everything.

Sorry, I just don’t get that vibe from him at all. He has shown naivety at this level, certainly, but to be expected from a young manager. He’s been courteous, open and transparent when talking with the press etc.

[Boss Hogg]

Some of the team selections and signings in the wrong positions have been baffling. Think we got the transfer window quite wrong. We’ve looked fairly diabolical at home. Not heard any booing just stunned silence.

[Vegas Claret]

Some of the team selections and signings in the wrong positions have been baffling. Think we got the transfer window quite wrong. We’ve looked fairly diabolical at home. Not heard any booing just stunned silence.

the one I don't get is we've completely abandoned playing through Cullen, it's bizarre

[Vegas Claret]

I don't think Kompany gives off an air of aloofness at all, quite the opposite in fact.

agree 100%, absolutely spot on with your comments about him

As to your other point on 'Sick and tired of the fanbase being blamed for the team's failings to be honest with you' - I'm not seeing that at all tbh, I'm seeing the club responding to the criticism of the drum farce and asking people what can we do as a collective. Could they have worded things better ? I think so, but for me they've got so much right in a short space of time that we probably should cut them a bit of slack now and again. Not sure about you but I don't know any person or business that gets every decision or message right. We all want a successful team so I don't get the animosity from some towards the club (not you just in general)

[xxmunkyennuixx]

Not sure any of them would make a difference.

I think certain sets of fans react really well to hard challenges and the physical side of the game. I think we are one of them sets of fans.

The physical side of our game has completely disappeared with the likes of cork and Barnes not in the side.

Would agree with this. Moved around the country a bit and perceptions of footballl are different. Playing at Uni was eye opening, a mixture of UK areas represented alongside some players from Europe and Africa. We love a proper tackle.

I know it has been quiet but it has not been overly critical of the players. There has been an acceptance that we are raw. Quite surprised the club have gone down this route. I would also agree that if they want atmosphere then it will be less family friendly.

[ClaretAL]

I sit in NU5 and there is a lot of attempts to get the atmosphere going, and to be honest probably been better this season than last season, but its always the same "we are the longside Burnley," rinse and repeat.... I was amazed when I sat in the Cricket field for a cup match and you cant hear the longside at all but i can hand on heart testify it is singing so whether that is to do with the acoustics of the stand I'm not sure, but from the longside you can hear the cricket field stand loud and proud. However I was shocked to see how many left when Chelsea scored their 3rd so I think it is linked to what we are seeing on the pitch, I personally don't agree with it and think you should get more behind the you lads to encourage them, but the link is there.

[ANASS]

Get the CFS full of home fans and put the away fans in the JML. Having the cricket field a full home stand would make quite a racket.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

That is very true. That was the most enjoyable atmosphere all season, and the loudest, with half the crowd.

The early emptying seemed to galvanise the crowd left on that day and I was definitely the most hoarse I’ve been all season the next day.

This.

Happened with Laws and the City rinsing.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Sorry, I just don’t get that vibe from him at all. He has shown naivety at this level, certainly, but to be expected from a young manager. He’s been courteous, open and transparent when talking with the press etc.

Just to be clear he is all three of those things, the guy is a diamond.

I was referring to his answers when put under pressure with a question that implies the interviewer thinks VK has made an error. That can come across a bit aloof to me.

But I don’t feel that issue causes any poor atmosphere, the heads dropping on the pitch can do, but not VK’s style.

[wilks_bfc]

Get the CFS full of home fans and put the away fans in the JML. Having the cricket field a full home stand would make quite a racket.

As much as we’d all like that, as things are now, that will never happen.

The current set up keeps the away supporters “contained” and is easy to keep separate from the home support

Moving them to the JML, would mean a mix of fans using the entrances to the upper & lower tiers, with the away fans in the inner turnstiles, along with supporters walking through them to get to the longside & CFS

[beddie]

I’ve not received the email in the opening post. It’s the first time I’ve seen it. I assume it was intended to be sent to all season ticket holders. I had replied and made comment on the post about the drummer though.

[Chester Perry]

Agree with the sentiment but would prefer a line like “ most owners are not interested in 'legacy fans' (as they refer to them) because they NAIVELY THINK THEY make very little money from them”.

I tend to think it is the legacy fans who create value by driving their team to achieve big things, e.g. our promotion last season which may be a bad example given the winning margin but our support, away in particular, helped drive them over the line.

That is why the traditional “legacy clubs” with a hard core fanbase, many of whom would die for their club, tend to do well these days.

A few outliers like Brentford and Brighton, achieved with very clever and wealthy owners, doesn’t disprove that.

So, to get back on topic, I feel the legacy fans are the key, and our owners need to nurture them which, to be fair, they seem to be trying to do. As I wrote on the other thread the way to do that is to maximise the CFS, shuffle the away fans somewhere else with a lower allocation, tell the safety authorities to stuff their seat sale restrictions and try to make that end like our away end always is, as it will be on Saturday.

Legacy fans tend to buy season tickets (at early bird prices not match day prices), may buy a shirt in the club shop for themselves, but often not, tend to drink in pubs before and after the match not on the concourse or in the fanzone, and prefer to spend their money travelling to away matches rather than with the club

all this is covered in a podcast I posted on the MMT which makes direct reference to conversations with Alan Pace and the situation he is trying to develop to multiply the value of ALK/VSL's 'investment' in the club

[KRBFC]

Not having a wide open defence and conceding 3+ goals per game would help.

This doesn’t add up though because we were winning against Chelsea for most of the first half and there was no atmosphere just moans and groans. I thought we were excellent first half against United but it was still very flat.

[AlargeClaret]

Would it be such a huge logistical feat to put away fans in the lower beehole? And simply open up the CFS to be a proper home end rather than the isolated mess it is at present ? Surely people could be re-located easily enough from that section ? Though capacity may be too small in the JML ?

[getbennyon]

Probably bad terminology on my part. I respect his honesty in pre match conferences and post match interviews and I hope he's our Manager for a few years yet. I just feel that, speaking for myself as a fairly basic person, some Managers are more relatable than others. This doesn't necessarily mean that relatability makes them good long term managers, but sometimes helps towards the atmosphere in the short term. Usually ends in tears though.

Burnley has had 5 successful managers in the last 40 years but only 2 ever really connected with the fanbase - Mullen and Coyle - the others(Ternent, Dyche and Kompany) never quite connected in the same way. The best atmospheres in the last 40 years came when either Mullen or Coyle were the managers and their departures hurt the most(some have never forgiven Coyle for going to Bolton whilst I've never forgiven Tony Livesey for driving Jimmy out of the club). Even thinking about other clubs it was noticeable just how great the atmosphere was at Newcastle when Keegan was the manager and what it's been like since he left.

Mullen and Coyle gave the impression they'd get the beers in for the fans whilst Stan, Sean and Vinny would be upstairs in the function room hoping not to be disturbed.

Fan/manager connection is everything to an atmosphere.

[bfcjg]

Perhaps fans having time to watch the game instead of queuing ages for food and drink might help .
This season feels like after the Lord mayor's show. Possession football with no end result doesn't inspire edge of the seat tension and atmosphere. Couple of wins will help and although I don't like orchestrated atmospheres we could do with a really good catchy song on the tannoy.

[ANASS]

As much as we’d all like that, as things are now, that will never happen.

The current set up keeps the away supporters “contained” and is easy to keep separate from the home support

Moving them to the JML, would mean a mix of fans using the entrances to the upper & lower tiers, with the away fans in the inner turnstiles, along with supporters walking through them to get to the longside & CFS

I know what you mean but to be honest, a lot of grounds I’ve visited don’t have away fans as contained as we do.

Take villa park for example. The away entrance is on the corner of the ground. The same stand houses home fans who use the turnstiles adjacent with no problems whatsoever. If it took some minor investment to alter an entrance more appropriate for away fans to enter the JML I think this would solve a lot of problems.

Another solution would be to give away fans a section of the James hargreaves upper and lower blocks.