what are our tactics?

[Newcastleclaret93]

No, no it’s not. Sometimes I think some of our fans are goldfish when it comes to memories.

I have never seen us so bad in the premier league. We aren’t even remotely competitive.

This is considerably worse than anything under Dyche.

Like I said on another thread VK will be lucky to make Christmas

[warksclaret]

I think when our two best CH's are back, and we play a hard core of the same team that includes Brownhill supported by Berge and Cullen in midfield , plus Foster and Amdouini (the only two that look like they can score goals), supported by Larsen and Zarroury, then by playing together reguarly we will become stronger and more resilient. Sadly VK has dropped in too many of our future players in thinking they would carve up the PL

[gandhisflipflop]

I have never seen us so bad in the premier league. We aren’t even remotely competitive.

This is considerably worse than anything under Dyche.

Like I said on another thread VK will be lucky to make Christmas

Total ********. I suggest you go and watch Dyches last game with us again. I was there that day and the football would have been an insult to league 2 sides.

[kaptin1]

In my opinion, we are still playing with a passing and possession based approach but the defence and goalkeeper are absolutely killing us.

Last season, when Muric was pressed it was actually brilliant news as he was usually capable of picking out the spare man and we would have an advantage straight away. Trafford quite clearly isn’t capable of doing that and more often than not lumps it forward and it comes straight back.

The times when he isn’t under pressure and passes it out to his back line are just as bad. There is only Roberts who is capable of taking it and playing it with confidence (apart from today obviously!). Taylor - Obviously can’t do it or he would have played more last season.
Al-Dakhil - Consistently takes one too many touches then plays it backwards or sideways creating huge pressure leading to a punt up the pitch.
O’Shea/Delcroix - Neither seem capable to doing what we were doing last season.

We need Muric back in the nets ASAP. We also need to pray for a Beyer recovery as he is more than capable of receiving the ball and doing something with it.

I think teams at this level are just much more effective at pressing. Players think quicker, move quicker, cut out a pass better and are better at challenging for the ball in 50:50s. Consequently, it’s just harder to play out from the back which puts the goalkeeper and defence under more pressure. We just can’t move the ball quick enough and so get caught out more.

[onewillieirvine]

Ferdinand Foch springs to mind.... My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, excellent situation, I am attacking!

[Newcastleclaret93]

Total ********. I suggest you go and watch Dyches last game with us again. I was there that day and the football would have been an insult to league 2 sides.

If that was an insult to league two sides then what was yesterday?

Kompany has got everything wrong so far

[gandhisflipflop]

If that was an insult to league two sides then what was yesterday?

Kompany has got everything wrong so far

You said that this season has been far worse than anything Dyche served up. I’ve pointed out that it isn’t. Yesterday wasn’t good, but it is far from being worse than anything Dyche ever served up. The fans have become far too impatient.

[Rileybobs]

You said that this season has been far worse than anything Dyche served up. I’ve pointed out that it isn’t. Yesterday wasn’t good, but it is far from being worse than anything Dyche ever served up. The fans have become far too impatient.

Yesterday definitely ranks up there as one of our worst performances in this division since Coyle. And did we ever pick up as few as 4 points from any 9 game run under Dyche? I’d be surprised if we did.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You said that this season has been far worse than anything Dyche served up. I’ve pointed out that it isn’t. Yesterday wasn’t good, but it is far from being worse than anything Dyche ever served up. The fans have become far too impatient.

It has,

Look how many goals we have conceded and how crap we played.

In 9 games I think we have been competitive in 3. That is how bad we are

[daveisaclaret]

Yesterday definitely ranks up there as one of our worst performances in this division since Coyle. And did we ever pick up as few as 4 points from any 9 game run under Dyche? I’d be surprised if we did.

We got 4 points in the first 9 games of our last PL season.

[RVclaret]

We got 4 points in the first 9 games of our last PL season.

[Rileybobs]

We got 4 points in the first 9 games of our last PL season.

Consider me surprised. Just looked and we won the tenth. Hope we follow the same pattern.

[KRBFC]

Everything that made us a good side tactically has been abandoned.

The press has gone.
The overloads out wide have gone.
One fullback inverted has gone.
Cullen dropping into fullback has gone.
One fullback high and wide is gone.
The GK pass to Cullen under pressure who then passes out wide is gone.

Completely ripped up the formation and style that made us successful and now I’m not sure what we’re trying to do.

[123EasyasBFC]

Haven’t played that once

You keep banging this drum, just because his average position stats show him alongside Berge, doesn’t mean he’s been as deep as berge. Amdouni has been much further forward. Amdouni wasn’t anywhere near berge and Cullen for the first goal yesterday.
Against Villa at home he was again much further forward than Cullen and berge

[Newcastleclaret93]

Let’s be honest VK doesn’t know the tactics either

[ClaretPete001]

Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.


I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

I am not sure of your point to be honest, I think we bought Ward in 2014 and Brownhill in 2020.

[CoolClaret]

Just done some calculations -

We are on pace to concede 109.25 goals if our current form extended to the entire season.

To put it in to context of just how bad that is, Leeds' shambolic defence last season conceded 78 for the entire season.

On average, we are currently losing every game by two goals.

Of course, I would hope and think (expect) it will change but I'm just showing how utterly dreadful these first 8 games have been.

[ClaretPete001]

You keep banging this drum, just because his average position stats show him alongside Berge, doesn’t mean he’s been as deep as berge. Amdouni has been much further forward. Amdouni wasn’t anywhere near berge and Cullen for the first goal yesterday.
Against Villa at home he was again much further forward than Cullen and berge

The point is mute anyway, is there anybody on here who really thinks Amdouni, Berge and Cullen are good enough to play as VK wants them to in the PL?

I watched two games yesterday, ours and the Merseyside derby. Everton showed how to defend in the PL and still lost partially because SD keeps picking Keane but you can see the plan.

Ultimately, VK will have to go the Dyche way and play 4-5-1 with 3 central midfielders, two wingers and Foster up front.

I just hope he does it against Bournemouth because we won't beat Bournemouth with the team that started yesterday. Confidence must be ebbing away we need to get Brownhill back in the side, swamp the midfield and get Kolosheo and Zaroury bombing down the wings.

We are not as bad as we currently seem to be but the experiment is over in my view.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I am not sure of your point to be honest, I think we bought Ward in 2014 and Brownhill in 2020.

It was replying to the Chap that said Dyche had no spend , when transfers were much cheaper than they are now so not comparative to the inflated market that now exists.

I was trying to get a bit of balance into the argument.

There are some good buys there granted even over a few years.

[BabylonClaret]

I know what you mean but he did have “some” spend.

Not in the last couple of seasons - Collins and Cornet were too little too late to plug the gaps that had opened.

Anyway - back to our current side - tactically we are trying to pass like we did last season but without a) a settled side, b) key players from our successful last season , c) inferior opposition.

At times you can see it works - agsint Forest I thought we did well, 1st half against Luton, first half against Utd and to a lesser extent against Chelsea.

But when sides close and deny space and stop us moving the ball quickly we start to get into a backward momentum and from then it just becomes more and more likely we will cough up the ball (often in our own half) and we are so so poor off the ball (not surprising - we spent most of last year on it).

Too many young players with no experience in the country let alone the league thrown in at once. That's 100% on Vincent and the Board. We need to get a settled group of maybe 6/7 players to have a long run in the side to get some consistency - for me I'd be looking at Brownhill, Cullen, Berge, Foster, Redmond, Taylor and Roberts to provide most of that along with Beyer and JGB when fit. Maybe also Zaroury. Everyone else needs to be used off the bench.

Cork might be useful alongside Cullen but I fear he will be just outstripped for pace. He took loads of yellows last year because he was a bit off the pace - it will be worse this year.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

This is worse than anything under Dyche

Is a shambles but at least we aren’t just launching it from the back to front. There is a semblance of a passing move despite the cock ups. I’m pretty sure if we had last seasons defence and keeper playing with Maatsen we would be loads better.

I was probably the only dissenting voice last season when most games bored me to tears with this backwards passing stuff. I think the only enjoyable game i watched was Blackburn at home when we had a right go at them.

[Stayingup]

Defour £8m
Brady £13m
Cork £10m
Hendrick £10m
Pope £1m
Gray £9m
Guddy £1m
Right back £1m
Tarks £3m
Chris wood £15m
Vydra £10m
Westwood £5m
Ward £500k?
Brownhill £7m

£93.5m

can’t remember his other buys so maybe more than those.


I get what you mean but saying he had no spend is misleading. This looks a lot more value than we have on the pitch at present.

This was before stupidly high fees though.

In one seaon!!! That's not misleading.

[alwaysaclaret]

We're clearly no longer a passing team, we were out passed by one of the most direct teams in the league today and that has been the case most matches.

We're not direct, we don't press, we don't go down the wings and whip crosses in or slip balls through the middle.

What is the plan?

Not sure we have one anymore, as each game goes by we seem to be losing the plot a little bit more, vk supposedly but I wish someone would convince him it's not working.

[BabylonClaret]

The point is mute anyway, is there anybody on here who really thinks Amdouni, Berge and Cullen are good enough to play as VK wants them to in the PL?

I watched two games yesterday, ours and the Merseyside derby. Everton showed how to defend in the PL and still lost partially because SD keeps picking Keane but you can see the plan.

Ultimately, VK will have to go the Dyche way and play 4-5-1 with 3 central midfielders, two wingers and Foster up front.

I just hope he does it against Bournemouth because we won't beat Bournemouth with the team that started yesterday. Confidence must be ebbing away we need to get Brownhill back in the side, swamp the midfield and get Kolosheo and Zaroury bombing down the wings.

We are not as bad as we currently seem to be but the experiment is over in my view.

I wouldn't have Koleosho anywhere near my starting 11. He's too much to learn in his final decision making and has no end product.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

In one seaon!!!

A lot of people seem to act like Dyche had 300k to spend over his whole tenure, all I’m trying to do is get a bit of balance to the argument.

No doubt Vinny has spunked a lot of money that is not in question!

Treating footballers like nfts is probably not the way forward!

Bought some good bargains

I Forgot about Keane so it’s £96.5m

[Stayingup]

A lot of people seem to act like Dyche had 300k to spend over his whole tenure, all I’m trying to do is get a bit of balance to the argument.

No doubt Vinny has spunked a lot of money that is not in question!

Treating footballers like nfts is probably not the way forward!

Bought some good bargains

I Forgot about Keane so it’s £96.5m

No comparison. 100 million in one transfer window not over about 7 seasons or more. Its a nonesense point of view. His last season 500k on Stevens wasn't it? Garlick stirched his wallet uo. Come on get real.

[boatshed bill]

No comparison. 100 million in one transfer window not over about 7 seasons or more. Its a nonesense point of view. His last season 500k on Stevens wasn't it? Garlick stirched his wallet uo. Come on get real.

That's half the story.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

No comparison. 100 million in one transfer window not over about 7 seasons or more. Its a nonesense point of view. His last season 500k on Stevens wasn't it? Garlick stirched his wallet uo. Come on get real.

He spent £96.5 million is nonsense?

Sorry I’m not following you.

I’m not arguing with you.

People always say Dyche didn’t spend any money which is a completely false claim. They don’t qualify it by how many years he spent it over they say he had nothing to spend so I’m glad I’ve put that to bed.

[ClaretPete001]

I wouldn't have Koleosho anywhere near my starting 11. He's too much to learn in his final decision making and has no end product.

Well ok then who? Given Benson and JBG are injured.

Kolosheo certainly gives defences more to think about than odebert or Tresor and that in itself causes defenders to think twice about pushing on etc.

But yes, if JBG or Benson are fit your wouldn't play Kolosheo.

[Stayingup]

He spent £96.5 million is nonsense?

Sorry I’m not following you.

I’m not arguing with you.

People always say Dyche didn’t spend any money which is a completely false claim. They don’t qualify it by how many years he spent it over they say he had nothing to spend so I’m glad I’ve put that to bed.

He spent what he spent in about 10 seasons. We have just splurged @100 million in one transfer window. Big difference. Sorry if you can't understand that because is my point

[CoolClaret]

He spent £96.5 million is nonsense?

Sorry I’m not following you.

I’m not arguing with you.

People always say Dyche didn’t spend any money which is a completely false claim. They don’t qualify it by how many years he spent it over they say he had nothing to spend so I’m glad I’ve put that to bed.

Do you want to do it vs money generated by staying in the league and player sales in that time?

Let’s not forget his success is why we built a state of the art training facility and had a whole load of dry powder (that ALK ****** out of the club)

[Carwin261]

Surely tactics can’t be that complicated
1 If your a forward and we have the ball get into a position to receive a pass
2 if your a forward and we lose the ball get back in a position to help the defender behind you
3 if your a defender and they have the ball either mark your man or try and take the ball off the opposition
4 if your a defender and we have the ball and you receive it ,get your head up and pass to a man that’s not being marked.

[KRBFC]

No comparison. 100 million in one transfer window not over about 7 seasons or more. Its a nonesense point of view. His last season 500k on Stevens wasn't it? Garlick stirched his wallet uo. Come on get real.

No it was closer to 40£m

Cornet 14m
Weghorst 12m
Collins 12m
Roberts 3m

[daveisaclaret]

Don't think Cornet or Weghorst were Dyche signings.

[KRBFC]

Do you want to do it vs money generated by staying in the league and player sales in that time?

Let’s not forget his success is why we built a state of the art training facility and had a whole load of dry powder (that ALK ****** out of the club)

Throughout your constant meltdown on here you’re forgetting Dyche got relegated after his first PL season, we are 9 games in and leagues aren’t decided after 9 games. Also Dyche won like 1 game in his first 25 in his final season.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

No it was closer to 40£m

Cornet 14m
Weghorst 12m
Collins 12m
Roberts 3m

Ha I forgot all about them!

So that makes it £138.5m spent, has anyone else been missed off the list?

Edit: Dale Stephens £1m

[boatshed bill]

He spent what he spent in about 10 seasons. We have just splurged @100 million in one transfer window. Big difference. Sorry if you can't understand that because is my point

This is so wrong.

[CoolClaret]

Throughout your constant meltdown on here you’re forgetting Dyche got relegated after his first PL season, we are 9 games in and leagues aren’t decided after 9 games. Also Dyche won like 1 game in his first 25 in his final season.

No meltdown just calling a spade a spade; we’re right now stinking the league out.

Dyche signed journeymen with 0 budget - also for promoted after selling Austin when the season started.

[boatshed bill]

No meltdown just calling a spade a spade; we’re right now stinking the league out.

Dyche signed journeymen with 0 budget - also for promoted after selling Austin when the season started.

Sean Dyche did a very good job until the last few seasons, that's indisputable.
But the talk of signing players you describe as "journeymen" is so far off the mark.
Sean Dyche signed some highly rated players for sums in excess of £10 million.

[CoolClaret]

Sean Dyche did a very good job until the last few seasons, that's indisputable.
But the talk of signing players you describe as "journeymen" is so far off the mark.
Sean Dyche signed some highly rated players for sums in excess of £10 million.

I meant specifically for that first PL season that KRBFC keeps liking to bring up

[ClaretPete001]

This is so wrong.

Count those up Barnyard and see what it comes to....


Players Club Transfer sum
Zeki Amdouni FC Basel 1893 FC Basel €18.60m
James Trafford Manchester City U21 Man City U21 €17.30m
Aaron Ramsey Aston Villa U21 Aston Villa U21 €16.45m
Jordan Beyer Borussia Mönchengladbach Bor. M'gladbach €15.00m
Sander Berge Sheffield United Sheff Utd €13.90m
Wilson Odobert ESTAC Troyes Troyes €12.00m
Dara O'Shea West Bromwich Albion West Brom €7.80m
Michael Obafemi Swansea City Swansea €4.00m
Luca Koleosho RCD Espanyol B RCD Espanyol B €3.00m
Hannes Delcroix RSC Anderlecht RSC Anderlecht €3.00m
Lyle Foster KVC Westerlo KVC Westerlo €11.00m
Ameen Al-Dakhil Sint-Truidense VV Sint-Truiden €5.00m
Anass Zaroury RSC Charleroi RSC Charleroi €4.00m
Benson Manuel Royal Antwerp FC Royal Antwerp €4.00m
Darko Churlinov VfB Stuttgart VfB Stuttgart €3.50m
Josh Cullen RSC Anderlecht RSC Anderlecht €3.00m
Arijanet Muric Manchester City Man City €3.00m
Scott Twine Milton Keynes Dons MK Dons €2.90m
Hjalmar Ekdal Djurgårdens IF Djurgården €2.80m
Luke McNally Oxford United Oxford United €1.85m
Vitinho Cercle Brugge Cercle Brugge €1.00m
Samuel Bastien Standard Liège Standard Liège €800k
Enock Agyei RSCA Futures RSCA Futures €350k

[THEWELLERNUT70]

A lot of people seem to act like Dyche had 300k to spend over his whole tenure, all I’m trying to do is get a bit of balance to the argument.

No doubt Vinny has spunked a lot of money that is not in question!

Treating footballers like nfts is probably not the way forward!

Bought some good bargains

I Forgot about Keane so it’s £96.5m

You forgot the lad from Boro too

[Shaggy]

Each year that passes transfer fees are going up very quickly. £15m player now is like a £5m player 7 or 8 seasons ago.

Also to add Dyche inherited a very good squad of players, VK inherited a disaster from a fire sale.

Their tactics are polar opposites. One sets up to win and the other not to lose.

Vinny seems he’ll bent on following the Pep plan at the moment. The thing with Pep is he has premium elite players who are all excellent technically and has pace throughout the side. Vinny has to realise that we are not capable of playing in such a way at present.

We will improve a lot when Beyer and Ekdal are back, hopefully Muric behind them. He has to play Cork until January and then find a replacement. Brownhill is better use further forward but for me has very little end product at this level. Amdouni and Berge are better than Brownhill.

[CoolClaret]

No, no it’s not. Sometimes I think some of our fans are goldfish when it comes to memories.

I think the Brentford loss was all things considered.

They had half a team out and absolutely battered us.

[ClaretAL]

Each year that passes transfer fees are going up very quickly. £15m player now is like a £5m player 7 or 8 seasons ago.

Also to add Dyche inherited a very good squad of players, VK inherited a disaster from a fire sale.

Their tactics are polar opposites. One sets up to win and the other not to lose.

Vinny seems he’ll bent on following the Pep plan at the moment. The thing with Pep is he has premium elite players who are all excellent technically and has pace throughout the side. Vinny has to realise that we are not capable of playing in such a way at present.

We will improve a lot when Beyer and Ekdal are back, hopefully Muric behind them. He has to play Cork until January and then find a replacement. Brownhill is better use further forward but for me has very little end product at this level. Amdouni and Berge are better than Brownhill.

Agreed, and I think we need Redmond in their too.

[Conroy92]

Started another thread but then spotted this so will add to here:-

The tactics have changed this season. Its not all down to personal but some of it is affected by this.

The pivot role appears to have gone completely. I'd suggest this is linked to not having a full back in the same vein as Maatsen. Last season saw the left back step out with the other full back or pivot player tucking in. Its not something that's happening currently and is leaving Cullen without a real role.

Stepping out from the back. I think I've seen Beyer do it once this season. Last season the defenders stepping out and past the striker often beat the press early and enabled us that extra space to play. I'm not sure if its confidence or ability but neither centre half look interested in progressing with the ball.

Wide player. Wingers look isolated completely. Fosters doing a decent job as a lone striker but isn't the same hold up type striker as Barnes was. We seem happy to give the ball to the wide men and say beat 3 men and run at goal. We are asking a lot of kids like Odebert and Koleosho. Overlapping runs have been poor and when we have beaten men and made it into the box there's only Foster to aim for. Last season the likes of Zaroury and Tella were both making runs arriving at the back post from out wide.

We seem stuck between last years system and deploying a new system.
Personally we either need to can what we are trying and revert to a more tested formula from last season. Or ditch last years tactics and set up as a counter attacking unit. Currently we are trying to do both.

[mdd2]

Yesterday definitely ranks up there as one of our worst performances in this division since Coyle. And did we ever pick up as few as 4 points from any 9 game run under Dyche? I’d be surprised if we did.

I think 2021-22 season 4 pts from 10 games but he hadn’t spent £100 million boosting an aging squad nor were we heading to shipping over 90 goals in a season

[CoolClaret]

Each year that passes transfer fees are going up very quickly. £15m player now is like a £5m player 7 or 8 seasons ago.

Also to add Dyche inherited a very good squad of players, VK inherited a disaster from a fire sale.

Their tactics are polar opposites. One sets up to win and the other not to lose.

Vinny seems he’ll bent on following the Pep plan at the moment. The thing with Pep is he has premium elite players who are all excellent technically and has pace throughout the side. Vinny has to realise that we are not capable of playing in such a way at present.

We will improve a lot when Beyer and Ekdal are back, hopefully Muric behind them. He has to play Cork until January and then find a replacement. Brownhill is better use further forward but for me has very little end product at this level. Amdouni and Berge are better than Brownhill.

This is complete nonsense.

Football has absolutely not had inflation three fold at all.

Dyche didn’t set up to not win - always tried to win games - you don’t play two up top to not try and ‘win’ a game. The only obvious example I can think is when we have been really short and maybe twice played five at the back.

Dyche had a few players and added to it with clever frees and also sold Austin to start the season.

VK benefited from a lot of Dyche’s ways and players and a lot of the incomings were managed to be financed because of some sales of players that Dyche developed

[willsclarets]

I think the philosophy is the same, we just can't execute it against a far superior set of opposition. We're also missing maatsen in an attacking sense and tellas pace. Both of those players are huge assets in transition to attack.

We're caught between the way we want to play, and how the opposition is making us play. Some of it is just simple things we aren't doing well. Getting caught in possession, not being sharp enough on second balls etc. But I do think we're just trying to play a game we don't have the quality of personnel to execute, namely in cm and at fullback. If we had Rodri, Maatsen and Trippier we'd have a shout. We don't. We need an extra man in midfield pronto. We're not getting any of the best of Amdouni, he can't play where he's playing without putting us under pressure

[KRBFC]

I think the philosophy is the same, we just can't execute it against a far superior set of opposition. We're also missing maatsen in an attacking sense and tellas pace. Both of those players are huge assets in transition to attack.

We're caught between the way we want to play, and how the opposition is making us play. Some of it is just simple things we aren't doing well. Getting caught in possession, not being sharp enough on second balls etc. But I do think we're just trying to play a game we don't have the quality of personnel to execute, namely in cm and at fullback. If we had Rodri, Maatsen and Trippier we'd have a shout. We don't. We need an extra man in midfield pronto. We're not getting any of the best of Amdouni, he can't play where he's playing without putting us under pressure

I don’t think we’re playing with an inverted full back and a high and wide full back at all. I don’t think we’re pressing the same at all either.