Another 18 people massacred in America

[Rowls]

Number of guns per 100 people in the USA is 120

Next closest country/colony is surprisingly the Falklands at 62

Assuming that the 80/20 rule applies then there's still a significant imbalance

Gun owners in the USA more likely to own more than one gun.

As a % of households the figures are a lot more comparable but yes, the USA is still out in front.

However, the stark fact remains that gun ownership in the USA is falling but mass shootings are increasing. There is clearly no correlation between the two or else mass shootings would be falling in line with gun ownership.

[yTib]

moving the goalposts again rowls. tut tut.

you said rates of gun ownership, not guns per household.

you really don't like to be wrong do you.

[Rowls]

moving the goalposts again rowls. tut tut.

you said rates of gun ownership, not guns per household.

you really don't like to be wrong do you.

You're correct and I was wrong about that.

There are far more guns in the USA than in other countries.

There are countries with rates of gun ownership that are close to the USA though. And your average gun owning American is more likely to own more than one gun.

This is why I don't often engage with you these days.

I've happily conceded I got it wrong. The truth is I was remembering one figure but I stated another, different figure.

Just take the win with a bit of grace.

****

Gun ownership in the US is declining and mass shootings are increasing significantly. So there is clearly no direct correlation between the two.

[yTib]

This is why I don't often engage with you these days.

I've happily conceded I got it wrong. The truth is I was remembering one figure but I stated another, different figure.

Just take the win with a bit of grace.

you've grudgingly conceded you've got it wrong and that is why you try to conflate one statistic with a different one.

and the reason you don't engage with me is because i constantly point out what you are.

a windbag.

[Commy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

This says that the number of people with guns is on the rise. Some states you don't even need a licence to carry one. Anyone here with a firearm has a visit from an officer every so often to check that they are being stored correctly.

The link also says the top 10 civilian gun owning countries.

[RMutt]

I think Rowls will get round to it in the end, but what he’s getting at, is the fact that they haven’t embraced enough Michaela type schools.

[Rowls]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

This says that the number of people with guns is on the rise. Some states you don't even need a licence to carry one. Anyone here with a firearm has a visit from an officer every so often to check that they are being stored correctly.

The link also says the top 10 civilian gun owning countries.

It doesn't quite say that. It tries to imply it, but what it says is this:

"More recent data out of the US suggests that gun ownership grew significantly over the last few years. A study, published by the Annals of Internal Medicine in February, found that 7.5 million US adults became new gun owners between January 2019 and April 2021."

The word they're using here is "suggests". Then they're quoting a study showing that 7.5 million adults became *new* gun owners between Jan 2019 and April 2021. What is the normal rate in the USA of new gun owners during such a period? Does this represent a long term trend?

This is where the BBC article is swaying from neutral journalism and moving towards pushing a specific narrative.

There are plenty of websites and articles out there showing that gun ownership in the USA is either flat or declining. Either way, these mass shootings have been on the increase for 20-30 years. My point being, they haven't suddenly increased "between January 2019 and April 2021".

Yes, the USA has a clear issue with gun culture. But the data is very, very, very clear here:

There is no correlation between gun ownership and these mass shootings.

There is simply NO correlation.

Please go and search these stats yourself.

If you care about these kind of incidents and want to see them reduced, you'd need to understand what is causing them. Because there is no correlation between levels of gun ownership and these mass shootings that if you focus *purely* on gun ownership restriction as a purported "solution" to the problem, you will undoubtedly reach a wrong conclusion.

[Rowls]

I think Rowls will get round to it in the end, but what he’s getting at, is the fact that they haven’t embraced enough Michaela type schools.

No. As I said, I don't want that debate right now.

I don't think the USA school system has changed significantly in the past 20-30 years.

I'm confident that good schooling might help reduce the instances but I wouldn't put bad schooling down as a cause of mass shootings.

[timshorts]

I've posted links showing that gun ownership is declining yet mass shootings are increasing.

There clearly is no direct correlation between the two. That's the only point I really want to make.

That's because they've got past the stage where it makes a great deal of difference. All the mad redneck types have got guns - and probably more than one. Having less "normal" people or more normal people with a gun won't make a difference. Even if your teenanxst killer hasn't got a gun, they can just go out and get one (or more) and that's only one added to the list.

If there are four beings in an alabama house: a cat, a gerbil, a lop-eared rabbit and a red-neck-make-america-great-again type and they all have two guns each, does it make any difference if the cat and the gerbil had only one gun, and the rabbit none at all? No. But it would make a lot of difference to the statistics.

[Rowls]

It doesn't quite say that. It tries to imply it, but what it says is this:



The word they're using here is "suggests". Then they're quoting a study showing that 7.5 million adults became *new* gun owners between Jan 2019 and April 2021. What is the normal rate in the USA of new gun owners during such a period? Does this represent a long term trend?

This is where the BBC article is swaying from neutral journalism and moving towards pushing a specific narrative.

There are plenty of websites and articles out there showing that gun ownership in the USA is either flat or declining. Either way, these mass shootings have been on the increase for 20-30 years. My point being, they haven't suddenly increased "between January 2019 and April 2021".

Yes, the USA has a clear issue with gun culture. But the data is very, very, very clear here:

There is no correlation between gun ownership and these mass shootings.

There is simply NO correlation.

Please go and search these stats yourself.

If you care about these kind of incidents and want to see them reduced, you'd need to understand what is causing them. Because there is no correlation between levels of gun ownership and these mass shootings that if you focus *purely* on gun ownership restriction as a purported "solution" to the problem, you will undoubtedly reach a wrong conclusion.

*This should read "There is no direct correlation between gun ownership and these mass shootings."

[Rowls]

That's because they've got past the stage where it makes a great deal of difference. All the mad redneck types have got guns - and probably more than one. Having less "normal" people or more normal people with a gun won't make a difference. Even if your teenanxst killer hasn't got a gun, they can just go out and get one (or more) and that's only one added to the list.

If there are four beings in an alabama house: a cat, a gerbil, a lop-eared rabbit and a red-neck-make-america-great-again type and they all have two guns each, does it make any difference if the cat and the gerbil had only one gun, and the rabbit none at all? No. But it would make a lot of difference to the statistics.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making. Can you re-phrase it?

Are you saying that there is a tipping point in terms of gun ownership which, once passed, will result in a significant rise in mass shootings?

[RMutt]

No. As I said, I don't want that debate right now.

I don't think the USA school system has changed significantly in the past 20-30 years.

I'm confident that good schooling might help reduce the instances but I wouldn't put bad schooling down as a cause of mass shootings.

Mini whoosh there, as it was a joke. Although I do now see there was a small reference to education earlier.

[Rowls]

Mini whoosh there, as it was a joke. Although I do now see there was a small reference to education earlier.

Yes, I could tell you were ribbing me but I'm sure there are plenty out there who might say things like "bring back the birch and it will stop XXX/mass shootings". I just wanted to put it out there that's not my opinion.

[Yanquiclaret]

There are about 393 million privately owned firearms in the US, according to an estimate by the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey – or in other words, 120 guns for every 100 Americans. That’s the highest rate of any country in the world, and more than double the rate of the next country on the list.

A majority of those guns, however, are owned by a minority of people, studies show.

How US gun culture stacks up with the world
Take, for example, a report published in 2017 by researchers at Harvard and Northeastern universities. The authors estimate that of the 265 million privately owned firearms in the US, about half are owned by 3% of the US adult population. And while about half of gun owners own one or two guns, 8% of gun owners own 10 or more – a figure that amounts to about 40% of the total US gun stock, according to the report.

Another finding that bears that out: National polls show that gun ownership has declined modestly since the 1970s, while FBI firearm background checks show that gun purchases are at record highs. What that suggests is that while the share of gun owners in the US is getting smaller overall, those who do own guns are buying more and more of them.

Note that the study these stats are based on was published in 2017 as it is almost impossible to know who is buying guns because most places don't keep track of gun sales in a usable manner. So a lot of gun stats rely on voluntary responses to polls.

Three in 10 adults say they personally own a gun, while four in 10 say they live in a household where someone owns a gun, according to a 2017 survey from Pew Research Center.

On the whole, gun owners are more likely to be White and male. They’re also more likely to live in rural areas and identify as Republican.

About 48% of White men say they own a gun, the Pew survey found. By contrast, 24% of White women and 24% of non-White men said they owned a gun. Women of color reported the lowest rates of gun ownership at 16%.


States with the most gun violence share one trait
Perhaps unsurprisingly, there is a stark partisan divide in gun ownership. About 44% of adults who identify as Republican or lean Republican say they own a gun, while just 20% of those who identify as Democrat or lean Democrat say they do, according to Pew.

[dougcollins]

With respect Rowls, I don't see why your correlation fixation is relevant.

[Rowls]

With respect Rowls, I don't see why your correlation fixation is relevant.

Because nearly every media outlet in the UK, is suggesting that gun controls and less guns is the answer but it clearly isn't.

The BBC article that Commy linked is a case in point.

I'd much rather these stories weren't so heavily featured in the UK news. I know that sounds daft as I so often comment on these matters but it's as if these journalists want to be the UK's representatives of the US Democrat party. I find that distasteful. Not because of my own partisan beliefs but because it's yet another example of us importing crappy US culture war style "wedge issues" into our lives, even though they have so little to do with our UK culture.

And my other big gripe with the argument that these appalling instances are caused by the sheer number of guns in the US is that, as I keep saying, it is clearly and falsifiably wrong.

If anybody cares about these dreadful murders and what can be done to reduce them, prevent them or even stop them entirely then they ought to care about not making an incorrect diagnosis of the cause of these killing sprees. This is something I do care about. So there you have it, doug.

[Spijed]

If anybody cares about these dreadful murders and what can be done to reduce them, prevent them or even stop them entirely then they ought to care about not making an incorrect diagnosis of the cause of these killing sprees. This is something I do care about. So there you have it, doug.

Isn't the problem the NRA who simply don't want to do anything about it?

Like I said earlier the 2nd amendment is far more important than any number of fatalities from gunshots

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Isn't the problem the NRA who simply don't want to do anything about it?

Like I said earlier the 2nd amendment is far more important than any number of fatalities from gunshots

This is something that doesn’t get highlighted enough, the NRA’s “ownership” of numerous US politicians

https://people.com/politics/the-lawmake ... -from-nra/

[Taffy on the wing]

This is something that doesn’t get highlighted enough, the NRA’s “ownership” of numerous US politicians

https://people.com/politics/the-lawmake ... -from-nra/

This is the problem.....a great many politicians receive donations from the NRA.
The USA ceased to be a true Democracy a long time ago....
A third party is desperately needed IMO.

[Rowls]

... it's yet another example of us importing crappy US culture war style "wedge issues" into our lives, even though they have so little to do with our UK culture.

[daveisaclaret]

I'm not interested in imported American culture wars. I just pretend to not understand why everyone having a gun leads to more shootings.

[Vegas Claret]

Isn't the problem the NRA who simply don't want to do anything about it?

Like I said earlier the 2nd amendment is far more important than any number of fatalities from gunshots

the problem is Republicans taking money from the NRA to look the other way. Typical of any self interest politician

[CoolClaret]

Spent a lot of time in America - lots of aspects that I absolutely love, lots that I do not love...

What they have right now is an absolute recipe for violent crime - mix that in with availability of guns then it's inevitable in what's going happen.

The recipe for violent crime : rampant/growing wealth inequality, unstable jobs & job markets, poor workers rights, no substantiated healthcare - both for physical/mental health and a culture of bombarding every inch of their life with aggresive advertisements, Drs handing out pills like candy, two party 'us vs them' politics & culture, hyper aggresive individualism vs collective mentality that ALL results in people that are quite literally a ticking timebomb.

Heck I know numerous smart, grounded Americans and their almost dependance to visit a Dr or take something for the most trivialist things is quite alarming.

The quickest fix to stop these attrocities would be to first heavily clamp down on the sale/distribution of semi auto/auto weapons and then implementing more progressive politics to balance out America.

America had it's best growth and development as a nation when the overton window was more left; the 80s/Reaganomics/Neoliberalism/Jack Welch culture has properly ****** it (much like it has us).

[AmbleClaret]

Looks like he's just become his own victim, suicide.