Frustrated/angry - more sensible Bournemouth reaction

[BabylonClaret]

Agree, and in part the reason I'd employ Brownhill in a more advanced role with a focus on the press. He does have the experience to lead it. I'd also be sorely tempted to start with one of JBG or Redmond opposite Amdouni because they are also experienced in that high press, and you can even make an argument for both of them ahead of Amdouni.

I think you don't need to make an argument to replace Amdouni at all. He has been a total.passemger for 80-90% of his time on the pitch and I'd be looking to use the experience of Redmond and JBG who have both looked likely enough when played. As we start to get some clarity of gameplay and a better shape (let's assume we do) we can start to introduce some of our less experienced players

[TsarBomba]

Where’s the aggression in this side?

We’re weak and the opposition know we are.

It’s ludicrous to be even saying this, but letting Barnes go is proving to be a mistake. He wouldn’t be putting up with these half arsed displays.

Not signing Tella (for what may have been legitimate reasons at the time) was a mistake. His high press was instrumental last season.

We have zero leadership, which could be offset by the reintroduction of Cork. Again, it’s ridiculous to be even suggesting Cork as a solution after spending £100M in the summer, but we’ve made such a fudge of it that we need him for the element of calmness and control he can give us.

We all get Vincent is principled and wants to play a certain way, but at present it’s lambs to the slaughter.

[DCWat]

The more that I see of Berge, the more my view is the opposite of Spice’s view that he should be played further back.

I don’t think that he’s nimble enough to break up play. He’s such a big unit that he can look quite slow and cumbersome when trying to deal with an opposition that pass, move and manipulate the ball, quickly.

Get Berge driving forward with the ball and I see a far more comfortable player. In fact, in a more advanced midfield role, I see someone that offers more at this level than Brownhill does in the same role.

Brownhill, after a much improved season last time around, is showing the level of performance that saw many of us question his capability at the higher level.

He was anonymous yesterday, which in some respects is worse than Cullen’s awful display. At least Cullen stood out for something, Brownhill simply went missing for large swathes of the game.

It’s a big concern that there are question marks about our whole midfield and until January comes, Cork probably needs to be given some game time for his experience and footballing nouse.

Another concern is our lack of discipline. We seem to be picking up a lot of silly bookings (last season too). We simply don’t have the depth to deal with such poor discipline.

[CrosspoolClarets]

As mentioned above; we just don’t have the players to play the passing game we want to play at this level as our defenders/midfielders aren’t good enough at passing out and beating the press. However, we also don’t have the personnel to play a direct game either, so we are very much left in a quandary.

We have to persist with the passing game, but perhaps with some tweaks.

1. Muric has to start. Trafford May develop into a good goalkeeper (don’t think he will ever be as good as some seem to think) but our game relies on a keeper who can pass quickly and accurately, short and long. Arguably, we have missed Muric’s long game more than his short, he nearly always finds a Burnley shirt with a ping, whereas Trafford rarely does.

2. We have to play with a double pivot, and the AM needs to also be able to drop in and create a genuine 3 when we are getting overrun, so Berge, Brownhill/Cork and Cullen have to play together every game.

3. Our midfielders need to be able to press high, and willing to do the work with and without the ball. They also need to be technically proficient enough to keep the ball, despite Koleosho and Odoberts pace they just can’t keep the ball. Our two wingers need to come from Redmond, Larsen, JBG and Zaroury (with Benson perhaps coming on to cause havoc)

4. Foster has to play every game, but when he can’t, Jay has to be next choice. Amdouni is never a number 9, and to be honest, I don’t see where he, Tresor, Ramsey etc fit at the moment.

5. Our centre backs have to be comfortable on the ball, so the first choice has to be Beyer and Ekdal, with AAD as first reserve. O’Shea and Delcroix are both terrible (made my decision on O’Shea after the Spurs game)

A back to basics approach (of sorts) is needed, but definitely not ripping up the blueprint and starting again.

Far too intelligent a post for this messageboard after a defeat so the poster must be an undercover spy.

Agree with 100% of the above.

It is as simple as ensuring solidity and making sure we use our experience while also ensuring our side gets used to each other. We have already shown the goals will come, we have scored in almost all games (the Manchester clubs are exceptions) and have been robbed of more by VAR (galling to see sides like City get a soft penalty today entirely due to VAR when we have been denied 5-10 identical ones already).

[KRBFC]

Here's my frustration:
All last season, every single game, we played out through Muric or Cullen dropping into the back line

This season we aren't doing either.

It's unfathomable that a man who is supposed to be super smart is doing something as stupid as he is this season

I agree with this 100%, if we play the same system and style as last season I’d fancy us to stay up. We aren’t a passing out from the back team and we aren’t a long ball side, I don’t actually know what we’re trying to do at the minute.

[claretspice]

The more that I see of Berge, the more my view is the opposite of Spice’s view that he should be played further back.

I don’t think that he’s nimble enough to break up play. He’s such a big unit that he can look quite slow and cumbersome when trying to deal with an opposition that pass, move and manipulate the ball, quickly.

Get Berge driving forward with the ball and I see a far more comfortable player. In fact, in a more advanced midfield role, I see someone that offers more at this level than Brownhill does in the same role.

Brownhill, after a much improved season last time around, is showing the level of performance that saw many of us question his capability at the higher level.

He was anonymous yesterday, which in some respects is worse than Cullen’s awful display. At least Cullen stood out for something, Brownhill simply went missing for large swathes of the game.

It’s a big concern that there are question marks about our whole midfield and until January comes, Cork probably needs to be given some game time for his experience and footballing nouse.

Another concern is our lack of discipline. We seem to be picking up a lot of silly bookings (last season too). We simply don’t have the depth to deal with such poor discipline.

Everything good I've seen of Berge has had him picking the ball up deep and driving or distributing from there. The Rodriguez "goal" yesterday is a case in point --Berge picked the ball up in the 6 position and prompted from there, into Redmond. I also think he can handle the ball generally when it is played into him.

Defensively I think there are questions but his build is not so different to Rice, or Rodriguez and I'm not sure how much of his perceived cumbersomeness is s reault of uncertainty about wxactly where to position himself. Think him and Cullen can work effectively together as a pair in that area if the structure is simplified and they are a straight double pivot.

Brownhill is more limited technically but presses better than the other two. That is why I think the balance would be better that way round.

[DCWat]

Everything good I've seen of Berge has had him picking the ball up deep and driving or distributing from there. The Rodriguez "goal" yesterday is a case in point --Berge picked the ball up in the 6 position and prompted from there, into Redmond. I also think he can handle the ball generally when it is played into him.

Defensively I think there are questions but his build is not so different to Rice, or Rodriguez and I'm not sure how much of his perceived cumbersomeness is s reault of uncertainty about wxactly where to position himself. Think him and Cullen can work effectively together as a pair in that area if the structure is simplified and they are a straight double pivot.

Brownhill is more limited technically but presses better than the other two. That is why I think the balance would be better that way round.

The driving element we agree on, Spice. It’s a real strength of his game and one that we need to exploit effectively.

I just haven’t seen him looking capable of breaking up play on a consistent enough basis. Too much passes him by, for me, in a deeper position.

Cullen certainly needs something alongside him though. Currently he’s like a fish out of water and yesterday was probably the worst display that I have seen from him.

[DingleDangle]

Serious question,

Why is it ridiculous to question a manager that is clearly miles out of his depth?

It isn’t like we are just losing after some really closely fought out games. We are getting demolished week in week out

And here he is again, like one of those annoying pop up ads or an annoying bluebottle that you have to keep swatting away.

Why do you feel the need to reply to every thread and bring it down to your own depths of mind numbing tripe?

Go back to the lame, bed wetting 'Kompany Out' thread if you want to keep spitting your dummy out. You seem more at home there!

[claretspice]

The driving element we agree on, Spice. It’s a real strength of his game and one that we need to exploit effectively.

I just haven’t seen him looking capable of breaking up play on a consistent enough basis. Too much passes him by, for me, in a deeper position.

Cullen certainly needs something alongside him though. Currently he’s like a fish out of water and yesterday was probably the worst display that I have seen from him.

Well, if he can help us hold the ball better and build better from deep, that in itself would be a good outcome. As for his defending, I think its a little harsh to judge because he has only once that I've seen been deployed alongside Cullen. That was against City on the opening night when I thought they screened effectively- City rarely passed through us and their chances were mostly set plays or long balls over the top from deep. He also played deeper to some effect in the first half against Chelsea when we sat off and again kept them at arms length (one of ironies/lessons of that game is that the possession stats became much more equal after half time and as we got into our possession shape more, so we looked more vulnerable defensively).

In between those games our midfield shape has generally seen Berge pushed on slightly further, even out of possession and actually that plays to your point: we've often defended as individuals, with Cullen deeper, then 4 spread wide across the pitch, rather than forming anything like a narrow 4. That itself has made it easier to play through us and has made all of Cullen, Berge and Brownhill look like they're chasing shadows. It's hard to be a unit in that set up.

[ksrclaret]

Well, if he can help us hold the ball better and build better from deep, that in itself would be a good outcome. As for his defending, I think its a little harsh to judge because he has only once that I've seen been deployed alongside Cullen. That was against City on the opening night when I thought they screened effectively- City rarely passed through us and their chances were mostly set plays or long balls over the top from deep. He also played deeper to some effect in the first half against Chelsea when we sat off and again kept them at arms length (one of ironies/lessons of that game is that the possession stats became much more equal after half time and as we got into our possession shape more, so we looked more vulnerable defensively).

In between those games our midfield shape has generally seen Berge pushed on slightly further, even out of possession and actually that plays to your point: we've often defended as individuals, with Cullen deeper, then 4 spread wide across the pitch, rather than forming anything like a narrow 4. That itself has made it easier to play through us and has made all of Cullen, Berge and Brownhill look like they're chasing shadows. It's hard to be a unit in that set up.

Why on earth can't the manager see this?

What is he hoping to gain by having us sat spread around the pitch off the ball? If we pressed high I could sort of understand it, but it seems to me we try to sit each player between two different zonal positions when the opposition have the ball.

[KRBFC]

Muric
Roberts Ekdal Beyer Taylor
Cullen Cork
Bruun-L Berge Redmond
Foster

Playing the same system/tactics as last season, Roberts inverted, Cullen deep to receive.

We have to get some kind of base to build on. Some kind of consistency and continuity through the spine, a solid structure. If you want to pass the ball, Brownhill cannot play and Berge has to.

[dougcollins]

Playing Berge deeper could be a bigger nightmare than we've got now.

[claretspice]

Why on earth can't the manager see this?

What is he hoping to gain by having us sat spread around the pitch off the ball? If we pressed high I could sort of understand it, but it seems to me we try to sit each player between two different zonal positions when the opposition have the ball.

It's not an unusual set up in fairness. But I do think it is fair to say that when inferior players play against better ones, it is a system that allows those players to be isolated and so the difference in class exploited. It places a premium on individual athleticism to effectively create a series of pressing contests. Im not sure we have the personnel for that and it is one of our issues right now.

I note incidentally that Berge replaced Cullen yesterday at the base of midfield for 30-odd minutes and is one of the players emerging with credit on the player ratings.

[Woonderbah]

Here's my frustration:
All last season, every single game, we played out through Muric or Cullen dropping into the back line

This season we aren't doing either.

It's unfathomable that a man who is supposed to be super smart is doing something as stupid as he is this season

I've just rewatched highlights of our FA Cup win over Bournemouth last season. Ok there were defensive clangers on our part but we had 4 pressing from the front and looked dangerous with pace and urgency. We look lethargic and disinterested compared to that game.
I just hope Vincent can restoke that fire.

[RVclaret]

I’m with claretspice on this. Like I’ve been saying Berge and Cullen haven’t play in a typical double pivot since the City game, where we/he did alright, given signing only 4 days earlier. The 4-3-3 type shape with Cullen as the sole 6 has left only Cullen ball side and we’ve been killed on transition, time and time again. Berge is pretty composed at receiving the ball and while not a ball winning midfielder, at least adds some presence in there. Brownhill playing further forward and pressing in more of a 4-4-2 shape like he/we did countless times last season also makes sense. Amdouni on one side and JBG/Redmond on the other and you’ve got a far more balanced, compact team.

[Carwin261]

I know we’ve been through all this with Tarkowski ,but when Beyer is fit it might be an idea to play him in front or AAD and Ekdal ,and start trying to be more rigid at the back,we’re running out of options.

[Vegas Claret]

I've just rewatched highlights of our FA Cup win over Bournemouth last season. Ok there were defensive clangers on our part but we had 4 pressing from the front and looked dangerous with pace and urgency. We look lethargic and disinterested compared to that game.
I just hope Vincent can restoke that fire.

like I've said on a few threads, the personalities in that team are either gone or injured. I was hoping Zaroury would have had some fire in his belly yesterday and played with confidence but he looked like a player who knows he is out of form (has been since the World Cup) and isn't trusted.

We need a win from somewhere in the League, 2-0 at home to Palace as an example but I genuinely don't see it happening.

The amazing connection we had with the side last season is gone and that is the biggest mistake the club made in the summer.

[k90bfc]

As it stands,Alan Pace,makes decisions,the New Turf Moor,no respect and feelings for the older generation fans,Players Portraits out side the ground,drummer etc,feels like a hospitality circus,which not many can afford to do,VK at the moment is as bad as the Chairman,his way or no way,on both points,just aint working,We really didnt expect and deserve this,can not believe what is happening to OUR GREAT CLUB,if this is the future,bring back the past,which Alan has forgot,UTC.

[Carlos the Great]

Our performances are getting worse .. we did well at United .. forest .. Luton .. but have been well beaten at Brentford and Bournemouth .. looking shambolic .. we need some motivation skills as well as putting a shift in on the pitch

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

As it stands,Alan Pace,makes decisions,the New Turf Moor,no respect and feelings for the older generation fans,Players Portraits out side the ground,drummer etc,feels like a hospitality circus,which not many can afford to do,VK at the moment is as bad as the Chairman,his way or no way,on both points,just aint working,We really didnt expect and deserve this,can not believe what is happening to OUR GREAT CLUB,if this is the future,bring back the past,which Alan has forgot,UTC.

One of the oddest posts on this thread and that’s saying something.

Big week ahead a couple of wins changes everything.

[CoolClaret]

Everything good I've seen of Berge has had him picking the ball up deep and driving or distributing from there. The Rodriguez "goal" yesterday is a case in point --Berge picked the ball up in the 6 position and prompted from there, into Redmond. I also think he can handle the ball generally when it is played into him.

Defensively I think there are questions but his build is not so different to Rice, or Rodriguez and I'm not sure how much of his perceived cumbersomeness is s reault of uncertainty about wxactly where to position himself. Think him and Cullen can work effectively together as a pair in that area if the structure is simplified and they are a straight double pivot.

Brownhill is more limited technically but presses better than the other two. That is why I think the balance would be better that way round.

There's an argument to be made that the second goal we conceded is because we didn't have a proper 6 in there that could sense Vitinho was under pressure and hold his position instead of trying to push on.

He's miles off Rice's agility - once he builds up a head of steam by all means but he struggles moving laterally at pace.. if he sits I think he needs a terrier alongside him to do more of his leg work.

[claretspice]

There's an argument to be made that the second goal we conceded is because we didn't have a proper 6 in there that could sense Vitinho was under pressure and hold his position instead of trying to push on.

He's miles off Rice's agility - once he builds up a head of steam by all means but he struggles moving laterally at pace.. if he sits I think he needs a terrier alongside him to do more of his leg work.

Which would be Cullen.

I didn't say he was as agile as Rice - he's clearly nowhere near as good a player. I just observed Rice and Rhodri (not Rodriguez- that's a typo!) were off similar stature so build alone does not mean he's unsuited to a defensive midfield role.

[CoolClaret]

Which would be Cullen.

Perhaps.

I'm not convinced of him playing there in all honesty - just don't think he has the sort of 'defensive mind' needed if you will to sniff out danger - though I will concede he could help us keep the ball and progress it up the pitch to greater effect.

What I do want to see now though is more of your Berge's / Redmonds / Larsens that have that experience.. We're crying out for it to start games.

[randomclaret2]

More tearing into Newcastle for daring to express an opinion , even on the " sensible " thread

[123EasyasBFC]

I would like to see some acknowledgement from the players on their social media that they realise it’s not been good enough, show abit of passion to try and get the fans back in side and know they are fighting for it, just feels like they are going through the motions at the minute

[Jakubclaret]

I would like to see some acknowledgement from the players on their social media that they realise it’s not been good enough, show abit of passion to try and get the fans back in side and know they are fighting for it, just feels like they are going through the motions at the minute

Forget the social media BS that means nothing what should mean something is the feelings becoming actions. The players are best saying nothing & concentrating on actually doing something.

[IanMcL]

After pondering and looking at the other teams in the Prem, I conclude that we have the least organised team in the league! The players do not create space for each other, as they did last year. Anyone with the ball has limited options - usually, sideways or more often, backwards.

I also conclude that, as I thought and said somewhere, at the outset, playing so many NEW, young players at the outset and omitting the core that remained from last season, was a monumental error - a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I further conclude that, at present, we do not have any energy in our team. They are overawed and fail to press, when compared to all other teams, who fight for every ball. Wrong players? Unfit? Demoralised? Not up to it?

The result is that these young players gave all lost value, not gained it. They have no senior players like Ashley Barnes and Jack Cork, to guide them with conviction, on the pitch. Barnes last season carried the line and inspired those around him. Whilst he may not be the sharpest now, he is sharper than anyone else, Inc Foster, at present. Foster needs Barnes not Amdouni, for a powerful partnership. Oops too late. Baby out with bathwater.

The managers shortcoming is that he sees lots of young possibles and fails to introduce them at a viable rate, alongside a stable set of teammates.

Unless there is a massive mindset change, these players are not xapable of winning matches. They are capable of making many mistakes and creating many an uphill battle.

Too many youngsters being burnt off.

The biggest failure is expecting to burn off 10 games on the Prem, vefore you think you might start playing. That is not possible as anyone could say. Sadly, the process has set the team backwards. No one has grown/developed at all. Foster has continued his development and so did Beyer, prior to injury.

The rest are shot and need taking out of the firing line
Damn shame. Cannot believe the manager thought last seasons miracle could happen in the Prem.

[boatshed bill]

Is it possible to conclude 3times?

[CoolClaret]

Is it possible to conclude 3times?

To conclude, or not to conclude - that is the question.

[IanMcL]

Is it possible to conclude 3times?

Of course it is!

Conclusions!

[Taffy on the wing]

After pondering and looking at the other teams in the Prem, I conclude that we have the least organised team in the league! The players do not create space for each other, as they did last year. Anyone with the ball has limited options - usually, sideways or more often, backwards.

I also conclude that, as I thought and said somewhere, at the outset, playing so many NEW, young players at the outset and omitting the core that remained from last season, was a monumental error - a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I further conclude that, at present, we do not have any energy in our team. They are overawed and fail to press, when compared to all other teams, who fight for every ball. Wrong players? Unfit? Demoralised? Not up to it?

The result is that these young players gave all lost value, not gained it. They have no senior players like Ashley Barnes and Jack Cork, to guide them with conviction, on the pitch. Barnes last season carried the line and inspired those around him. Whilst he may not be the sharpest now, he is sharper than anyone else, Inc Foster, at present. Foster needs Barnes not Amdouni, for a powerful partnership. Oops too late. Baby out with bathwater.

The managers shortcoming is that he sees lots of young possibles and fails to introduce them at a viable rate, alongside a stable set of teammates.

Unless there is a massive mindset change, these players are not xapable of winning matches. They are capable of making many mistakes and creating many an uphill battle.

Too many youngsters being burnt off.

The biggest failure is expecting to burn off 10 games on the Prem, vefore you think you might start playing. That is not possible as anyone could say. Sadly, the process has set the team backwards. No one has grown/developed at all. Foster has continued his development and so did Beyer, prior to injury.

The rest are shot and need taking out of the firing line
Damn shame. Cannot believe the manager thought last seasons miracle could happen in the Prem.

I agree with a fair bit of that....i really think we should have kept Barnes around.

For me though Kompany's stubbornness with Trafford is the big issue.
Our defenders spend most of their time facing their own goal, passing back towards Trafford....(after his delayed, poor pass).. has put them under pressure, only for him to lump it to mid-field towards one of our midgets, who then gets muscled off the ball & we are exposed......this is happening in every game..from the off.
After the Bournemouth game Al-Dakil looked like he was suffering a mental breakdown, whilst Kompany and the other players were applauding the traveling fans....a lot of the players look shot, because they're under constant pressure due to the basket case we have in our goal....He's nowhere near ready!
Other players are playing in unfamiliar positions.
The line-up is different every game & our midfield is overrun, yet Jack Cork hasn't had a sniff..Why?

All the positivity at the club is being undermined by Kompany's stubbornness IMO.