Resigned to Relegation

[elwaclaret]

For me the attempts to bring in Eric Dier on loan demonstrates VK had identified he was lacking a leader. I suspect they club were very confident it was going to happen, when it didn’t it left a massive whole in the building plan. We have been paying for that not happening when expected, so players have been thrown in at the deep end. They will be learning fast, and it is just a matter of when the penny drops and things come together.

It has gone on longer than I think most of expected, but it is not terminal and I think we will be setting records for the right reasons at the end of the season for surviving despite the start we’ve had.

Getting a little concerned, but still think we will find our feet in time to pull ahead of the bottom four dog fight at seasons end. Keeping our nerve will be key.

[CoolClaret]

Not really. The Championship is a very weak Division with no real depth to it. Looking at the current table the 3 relegated clubs occupy 3 of the top 4 positions and the club lying in 2nd place were the runners up last season in Division One. Perhaps VK thought that employing similar tactics and formations that bought success last season in the Championship would work in the PL.

Last season, all three promoted teams from the championship remained in the PL

[Big Vinny K]

Last season, all three promoted teams from the championship remained in the PL

And as you well know that is an exception to the norm.
Right now the bottom 3 teams are the promoted ones.
3 of the next 4 bottom teams are the ones promoted the season before.
And in the championship 3 of the top 4 sides are the ones who were relegated last season.

[RVclaret]

Last season, all three promoted teams from the championship remained in the PL

First time it had ever happened wasn’t it? Helped by there being a team that’d been hanging on for years (Saints) being awful and a team with no clear direction and odd owners (Leeds). Doesn’t seem to be any clear bad ens down there this season, Bournemouth aside? Everton were fancied but they look clear to me (unless 12 points deduction).

Worth highlighting Forest had to spend 170m across the season plus a very large wage bill to just stay up (remember Lingard on 200k a week there?). By comparison we’ve spent half of that and probably half their wage bill. Fulham actually went back down, maintained a strong squad and built again, adding just a few really high quality signings (Leno, Willian, Palhinha) to an already solid base. Perhaps the latter would be our aim *if* we do go down.

[Wokingclaret]

We got relegated along with Norwich and Watford. I personally think we're in a miles better position than either of those clubs, financially and wrt squad quality.

Watched the highlights yesterday and was quite impressed with the football we played and the chances created.

Based on what I saw I don't think the level of negativity shown in comments is warranted. If 4 of those near misses had gone in everyone would be raving about what an excellent performance it was....even if the rest was played out exactly as it was.

Basically what I'm saying is that people's summaries are purely based on goals and results and not on performances. Sounds nonsensical but it really isn't.

That's what happens during a classic relegation season, play well, create chances, don't take them, but bang let them in......

[CoolClaret]

The money argument is a non starter for me.

We simply have to improve and show more or it’s been a monumental failure on every level.

[Jamesy]

Eric Dier and Kalvin Phillips on loan in January and we stay up painful ride until then however

As if Eric Dier and Kalvin Phillips would come anywhere near us?

[expoultryboy]

Phillips might as he's said he needs game time to be selected for England .

[elwaclaret]

As if Eric Dier and Kalvin Phillips would come anywhere near us?

Doer was very close to happening in the summer, Phillips now got the like of Juve looking to bring him in in January… so far more unlikely.

[Gaia]

Company now down to 8/1 next premier league manager to be sacked.
https://www.sportinglife.com/football/n ... -go/213522

[Boss Hogg]

We got relegated along with Norwich and Watford. I personally think we're in a miles better position than either of those clubs, financially and wrt squad quality.

Watched the highlights yesterday and was quite impressed with the football we played and the chances created.

Based on what I saw I don't think the level of negativity shown in comments is warranted. If 4 of those near misses had gone in everyone would be raving about what an excellent performance it was....even if the rest was played out exactly as it was.

Basically what I'm saying is that people's summaries are purely based on goals and results and not on performances. Sounds nonsensical but it really isn't.

It was obvious a few games back that the football we are playing is completely ineffective at this level. It may be more pleasing on the eye in parts for some but we will just continue to lose matches playing the the same way so what’s the point. Another poster summed it up perfectly as ‘suicide football’

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not sure yesterday was anything to do with the style of football. It was a miscontrolled ball and a slip followed by losing a man at the back post. A few sides in our division may tell their man to hump that kind of ball out but I don’t think that is down to our style (that foul on Trafford was but that is by the by).

So there wasn’t any “suicide football” yesterday, our football actually resulted in us dominating the game, before and after the goal. We just missed a slight cutting edge and avoidance of mistakes at the back.

[k90bfc]

If its any consolation,Man City,WONT be coming for Vincent Kompany,to dismantle a CHAMPION winning team!

[KRBFC]

As if Eric Dier and Kalvin Phillips would come anywhere near us?

Why what is Dier doing now? Does he even get on the bench for Spurs?

[CoolClaret]

Tom Lockyer free transfer a few seasons back for Luton.

Miles better than the dross we’ve seen at centre half for us this season

[KRBFC]

Tom Lockyer free transfer a few seasons back for Luton.

Miles better than the dross we’ve seen at centre half for us this season

Course he is lol

[Spijed]

Not sure yesterday was anything to do with the style of football. It was a miscontrolled ball and a slip followed by losing a man at the back post. A few sides in our division may tell their man to hump that kind of ball out but I don’t think that is down to our style (that foul on Trafford was but that is by the by).

So there wasn’t any “suicide football” yesterday, our football actually resulted in us dominating the game, before and after the goal. We just missed a slight cutting edge and avoidance of mistakes at the back.

Do you really think we can still do well playing the way we are?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Doer was very close to happening in the summer, Phillips now got the like of Juve looking to bring him in in January… so far more unlikely.

Bayern Munich have been linked with Dier and Phillips has been linked with a number of top clubs.

Absolutely no chance either happen

[ClaretPete001]

Do you really think we can still do well playing the way we are?

Hard to see it isn't it.

Everton held Brighton with 20 per cent possession. Forest beat Villa with 26 per cent and Luton have held Liverpool after 100 minutes with the same.

The pundits on Toffee TV summed it up when they said something like: 'it looks like Burnley judge themselves not based upon 3 points but on the number of passes they can string together. Once they reach the allotted number (10 or whatever) they just gave us the ball back.

We have the second lowest XG in the division and have scored 8 goals.

I mean you can say an old BS you like on here but where is the evidence for the optimism?

[aggi]

I've only skimmed through the thread but I think the main cause for optimism is that even after this run we're only 2 points (maybe 3 given the goal difference) from safety.

My prediction at the start of the season was that we would finish 17th with 34 points and it's becoming clear that there is a group of 4 teams that are going to struggle this season.

Obviously the trouble is that at the moment we are on a dire run of form and it's difficult to see what the tactics we're developing are going to be. However, in some ways, Kompany being inexperienced could be a benefit. Last season we saw him learning and become more pragmatic as the season went on and we can hope that this may happen again this year.

It's not looking great but I think we do still have a decent chance.

[spt_claret]

The pundits on Toffee TV summed it up when they said something like: 'it looks like Burnley judge themselves not based upon 3 points but on the number of passes they can string together. Once they reach the allotted number (10 or whatever) they just gave us the ball back.

Jeez that might be the most cutting & concise description of us possible. Stat-padding for passes.

[Dark Cloud]

Tom Lockyer free transfer a few seasons back for Luton.

Miles better than the dross we’ve seen at centre half for us this season

I went to Luton and actually thought Lockyer looked a donkey tbf, especially bearing in mind it's the "best league in the world". He wouldn't have made a difference to our season (imo) and for the record I was resigned to relegation after seeing our first two matches. We're all well aware of the current standards required for PL survival after numerous seasons watching under Dyche recently and it was immediately obvious we didn't have it (imo).

[JTClaret]

Got to admit, I feel the same way in being resigned to it now.
We don't appear to have any grit or determination to take control of a game if we aren't able to casually pass it around... and we aren't creating enough chances if we are supposed to be playing attacking possession football.

I'd love it if the defence clicked, or we stopped with the sloppy possession that gives the opposition clear cut chances. Although that feels like a monumental ask now.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Do you really think we can still do well playing the way we are?

Well, we totally dominated the game, without Foster and Obafemi to stretch them. I’ve seen enough to say yes, we shouldn’t change style comprehensively (tweaks always happen, between games and during games).

Whether we change personnel in January, that remains to be seen, but too many managers this season have praised the way we play and I don’t think they are damning us with faint praise. He needs a consistent back four, removing players making lots of errors like AAD and in my view Vitinho. The Cullen or Berge question at the base of the diamond at home, that is another issue, but no need to fundamentally change style. I’d be playing Muric until itnis proven to be not working but that one is done to death on the other thread.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Hard to see it isn't it.

Everton held Brighton with 20 per cent possession. Forest beat Villa with 26 per cent and Luton have held Liverpool after 100 minutes with the same.

The pundits on Toffee TV summed it up when they said something like: 'it looks like Burnley judge themselves not based upon 3 points but on the number of passes they can string together. Once they reach the allotted number (10 or whatever) they just gave us the ball back.

We have the second lowest XG in the division and have scored 8 goals.

I mean you can say an old BS you like on here but where is the evidence for the optimism?

On xG alone we would be on 9 points having beaten Man U, Palace and Forest. At least 3 other games were very close including Luton and Bournemouth away.

On the 20% possession one, I recall when we beat Liverpool with that really low possession figure it was heralded as almost unheard of for a team to win in that way.

So I don’t think selectively cherry picking negative stats is the right approach. We can also debate which stats have most merit (e.g. we were a lot better on Saturday at “touches in the opposition box” it was something like 30-4 from memory and that stat often correlates with goals).

Let’s just call it what it is - a worrying start but with some justified hope for the rest of the season now we are into the easier games at home.

[Big Vinny K]

Hard to see us surviving right now as so many things are wrong and have gone wrong too like injuries and key players missing for big games.
But if the last couple of years have taught us anything it’s how quickly things can change.
Couple of our better players back, bit of a confidence build up from a win and Kompany changing a few things as he adapts to the league etc and we could potentially still have a chance to stay up.
Looking like a low points total to survive this year and I don’t think there is much between the bottom 4 sides.

[dandeclaret]

Who will want to sign for a team that according to stats are the worst ever Premier League team?

Which stats are these? Because, it seems a bit absurd, to me anyway, that THE WORST EVER premier league team, aren't even bottom of this year's table....

[Pickles]

Who will want to sign for a team that according to stats are the worst ever Premier League team?

Sheffield United must be bad then.

[boyyanno]

On xG alone we would be on 9 points having beaten Man U, Palace and Forest. At least 3 other games were very close including Luton and Bournemouth away.

On the 20% possession one, I recall when we beat Liverpool with that really low possession figure it was heralded as almost unheard of for a team to win in that way.

So I don’t think selectively cherry picking negative stats is the right approach. We can also debate which stats have most merit (e.g. we were a lot better on Saturday at “touches in the opposition box” it was something like 30-4 from memory and that stat often correlates with goals).

Let’s just call it what it is - a worrying start but with some justified hope for the rest of the season now we are into the easier games at home.

To be fair someone once argued with me that Chris Wood was going to start scoring in that last season because he was under preforming against his XG, that didn't go so well.

Stats like these can be used to support both sides of the argument imo, a higher XG and still getting beat doesn't mean you are doing everything right, it means you are still doing the fundamentals wrong imo.

[CoolClaret]

On xG alone we would be on 9 points having beaten Man U, Palace and Forest. At least 3 other games were very close including Luton and Bournemouth away.

We bettered United on xG, didn’t better the rest.

Anyway, some analysts usually say that a differential of 0.5 xG + usually signifies enough to consider that you should probably have won the game.

To be fair someone once argued with me that Chris Wood was going to start scoring in that last season because he was under preforming against his XG, that didn't go so well.

Stats like these can be used to support both sides of the argument imo, a higher XG and still getting beat doesn't mean you are doing everything right, it means you are still doing the fundamentals wrong imo.

That’s the thing - xG doesn’t is just showing the par for the course.

If someone is routinely underperforming their xG then they’re either out of form/low on confidence or just a perennially bad finisher.

That’s why it needs to go (as with all data) along the old eye test, imo.

[ArmchairDetective]

It is an odd game to come to the conclusion after that we're destined for relegation. Fair enough after the previous two matches, but I believe there was some truth in Roy Hodgson's comments post-match. We were improved on Saturday. I think at win at the Turf when it does come will be massive for us all - players, fans, management to bring back some of last season's feel good factor. We might have to wait until December for that to happen but a lot can change over December and January with a couple of decent results in a short space of time. There's plenty of time between now and the end of the season.

Keep the faith for now if you can. Things can change quickly in football.

[aggi]

To be fair someone once argued with me that Chris Wood was going to start scoring in that last season because he was under preforming against his XG, that didn't go so well.

Stats like these can be used to support both sides of the argument imo, a higher XG and still getting beat doesn't mean you are doing everything right, it means you are still doing the fundamentals wrong imo.

I posted on another thread earlier but probably also relevant here:

I think one thing that is missed about xG is that some clubs/players should outperform it. It's based on the average striker and the average team, if you're Erling Haaland or Man City you should outperform xG every season, if you're rubbish you will consistently underperform it.

[ClaretPete001]

On xG alone we would be on 9 points having beaten Man U, Palace and Forest. At least 3 other games were very close including Luton and Bournemouth away.

On the 20% possession one, I recall when we beat Liverpool with that really low possession figure it was heralded as almost unheard of for a team to win in that way.

So I don’t think selectively cherry picking negative stats is the right approach. We can also debate which stats have most merit (e.g. we were a lot better on Saturday at “touches in the opposition box” it was something like 30-4 from memory and that stat often correlates with goals).

Let’s just call it what it is - a worrying start but with some justified hope for the rest of the season now we are into the easier games at home.

What stats do you want to pick? We've scored the lowest number of goals and conceded the joint highest number.

We are second bottom with 4 points having been beaten in one week by the 18th from bottom, 16th from bottom and a perennial mid table team without its best players.

If I was using stats to try to argue that the lowest scorers in the league with the second lowest XG and the worst defence should have more than double the points we do have then I could see your point.

But I'm not you are. I'm not clever enough to look at the stats and make the argument you are making - it would require far more imagination than I have.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Im not, with the right players on the pitch and a manager with a coherrent plan we have a good chance of staying up.

Im expecting Pace to act in around 3-4 games time, heres hoping anyway!

[JarrowClaret]

Not resigned yet, but got to admit it isn’t looking great. As with any season there are many twists and turns yet to be seen there is still time for the likes of Palace, Forest, Fulham etc to get dragged into the relegation.

[Quickenthetempo]

Bayern Munich have been linked with Dier and Phillips has been linked with a number of top clubs.

Absolutely no chance either happen

Both wages will be over 100k a week.

Plus Phillips is struggling with the tactics side of the game, and seeing as Vinny copies Pep, it would be silly of him to come here.
Let him run wild like Leeds did and he will perform.

[Longsidejono]

We was like Celtic and rangers domestically in the championship it’s good times get that ‘winning mentality’ fans are confident to travel away knowing there’s a good chance of a good day out and a win that’s why fans are so annoyed when we lose

Play against someone decent of champions league quality get hammered like Celtic did 6-0 last night just enjoy the season if you can’t stand getting beat don’t go on

Heck we even made a legacy of ‘capital punishment’ when we beat a few of the London clubs in the cup now it should be a given? We are still little old Burnley

Yeah we spent 100million if that only bought us caicedo we would still be in the same position

If we had a an amazing season this season and maybe even got into Europe I personally would still get more enjoyment out of winning the league at deadwood last season

[Tall Paul]

To be fair someone once argued with me that Chris Wood was going to start scoring in that last season because he was under preforming against his XG, that didn't go so well.

I think you'll find that was the season before and it did go well actually.

[ElectroClaret]

Haven't seen anything lately to change my mind.
Just cannot see games out.

[Rileybobs]

Anyone still think we’ll finish in the top half?

[kentonclaret]

You can stick the fork in now “Burnley are Done”.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Up there with the most angry I’ve felt coming off a game and I’ve watched some serious shite over the last 30 odd years.

[boatshed bill]

What I don't understand is why lose optimism.
The opposite is so depressing.

[JohnMcGreal]

What I don't understand is why lose optimism.
The opposite is so depressing.

It's easy to say that. But when you're losing every game (7 on the bounce now in all competitions and 7 on the bounce at home) it's pretty hard to feel optimistic about anything.

Anyone who still feels optimistic at this point is probably bordering on delusional.

[boatshed bill]

It's easy to say that. But when you're losing every game (7 on the bounce now in all competitions and 7 on the bounce at home) it's pretty hard to feel optimistic about anything.

Anyone who still feels optimistic at this point is probably bordering on delusional.

I'd settle for that.
Beats depression every time.

[BurnleyFC]

Next Sky documentary should be called ‘Submission for Burnley’.

[Terry Cochrane]

Football does not depress me no matter how bad we are. It disappoints me but Im long past the moody sulks I used to get in when I was younger. Football is rotten now ruined by big money. It really isnt worth affecting your morale to the point of ruining your weekend. Not anymore.

[cockneyclaret]

Football does not depress me no matter how bad we are. It disappoints me but Im long past the moody sulks I used to get in when I was younger. Football is rotten now ruined by big money. It really isnt worth affecting your morale to the point of ruining your weekend. Not anymore.

So true, definitely lost interest the past 4-5 years.. ok last season got me back in love with it but I've found better things to do at the weekend..
This season is.. well.. life carries on

[willsclarets]

With 10 minutes to go the whole picture looked completely different. Luton found a goal, we capitulated and it looks done and dusted instead of optimistic. I think the lads try really hard, but that's different to bottle and nous. We have neither of those things