I won't deviate

[ŽižkovClaret]

This.

Humour me, why is it interesting?

Maybe its my flu addled brain, i don't know

[NewClaret]

This is really twisting history NewClaret - for a start we had no trouble taking in Maxwel Cornet in his last year - I also don't think Dyche will struggle signing players for Everton either. Paying good wages and being in the Prem is always an attractive situation no matter what.


A lot of this opinion really comes from the media and now social media - labling Dyche as this dinosaur with coaches like VK as some sort of Renaissance artist almost.

If another manager not named VK had his team where we are right now he'd be getting a lot harder questions from the media at pressers and more overall scrutiny - but because it's VK and he's a well liked name he gets a bit more time.

but like I've said all we can do now is back the manager and team.

Don’t really feel it is. I did think of Cornet but he looked like a Pace signing to me. Same with Weghorst, I think.

At that time Cornet talked a lot about how the Chairman had pursued (think he called him president) him. Also, Pace talked a lot about the recruitment committee he’d put together, that included him, Dyche and others.

That’s not to say Dyche didn’t play his part, or sanction the moves, just that I don’t imagine he was making omelettes for them.

Look at this summer (possibly cash constrained at Everton tbf) and he’s made a few ‘old pro/experienced’ loan signings in Young, Harrison, Danjuma and Beto, a massive striker, and Chermiti, a young one.

Just really my point being that I don’t sense a big shift in his approach at Everton. They’re all players I could’ve seen Bunrley being linked with. Time will tell in how he develops their squad, but it wouldn’t shock me if when he leaves they have a squad that’s older than when he joined and lacking attacking flair, that’s all.

Not to say he didn’t do an outstanding job for us and I’d have a few of them back in a heartbeat, just an observation it was pretty unsustainable for us, particularly the number leaving on frees.

Re: VK the BBC ran a report asking whether he should be sacked recently. Not sure he’ll get many favours from the press for being likeable, but more likely because they think this is where Burnley should be/we don’t deserve to be here so there’s no expectation of anything different.

[kentonclaret]

Basically he can't deviate. The players he signed both last season and this summer were all signed to play one way and they actually are playing that way I feel, but unfortunately the other teams in this division are (largely) much better. Are we suddenly going to start playing a hugely physical game and start booting long balls up to a big striker and feeding off the Knock downs? Or sticking over high balls and battering everybody and creating mayhem at set plays and bundling the ball over the line? Not with this squad we're not. The die was cast when VK started and it's been carried through with each new signing and it worked perfectly last season, which led to more of the same, but sadly it's clearly not working this season. He can't change it, but (imo) what he can do is be a bit more "creative" and pragmatic with some of his team selections. Jack Cork HAS to be worth a try in a struggling side, despite being in the twilight of a superb career and so has Muric to name a couple. It might seem like the proverbial shuffling of deck chairs on the Titanic and maybe it is, but by trying different things he doesn't have to abandon all that was brilliant about last season, even if he could.

It is not just the players but the managers in the PL are generally far more tactically astute than those that VK came up against regularly in the Championship.
Knowing how VK is going to set his team up and realising that he has no Plan B makes us canon fodder for the best teams in this league.

[gandhisflipflop]

Humour me, why is it interesting?

Maybe its my flu addled brain, i don't know

It’s actually quite impressive how some posters will turn anything political.

[ŽižkovClaret]

It’s actually quite impressive how some posters will turn anything political.

[CoolClaret]

Don’t really feel it is. I did think of Cornet but he looked like a Pace signing to me. Same with Weghorst, I think.

At that time Cornet talked a lot about how the Chairman had pursued (think he called him president) him. Also, Pace talked a lot about the recruitment committee he’d put together, that included him, Dyche and others.

That’s not to say Dyche didn’t play his part, or sanction the moves, just that I don’t imagine he was making omelettes for them.

Look at this summer (possibly cash constrained at Everton tbf) and he’s made a few ‘old pro/experienced’ loan signings in Young, Harrison, Danjuma and Beto, a massive striker, and Chermiti, a young one.

Just really my point being that I don’t sense a big shift in his approach at Everton. They’re all players I could’ve seen Bunrley being linked with. Time will tell in how he develops their squad, but it wouldn’t shock me if when he leaves they have a squad that’s older than when he joined and lacking attacking flair, that’s all.

Not to say he didn’t do an outstanding job for us and I’d have a few of them back in a heartbeat, just an observation it was pretty unsustainable for us, particularly the number leaving on frees.

Re: VK the BBC ran a report asking whether he should be sacked recently. Not sure he’ll get many favours from the press for being likeable, but more likely because they think this is where Burnley should be/we don’t deserve to be here so there’s no expectation of anything different.

Cornet and Wout came with more pedigree than any of our signings under the new regime, ultimately the longer you’re in the top flight having moderate - good success the better quality of player you’re gonna get linked to… let’s not forget Everton have been a bit of a basket case as of recently though Harrison is a very good player, Beto coming with pedigree from Serie A, Pickford signed a new deal… definitely over stated some of that stuff.

For us right now it’s important because we don’t have a huge standing in the game and of course VK can attract players because of that but if an Everton managed to get into Europe and have a few top half finishes then they’d also be levelling up in player recruitment.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I don’t think anyone is asking him to deviate from his principles. We would love his team to play 200 passes and walk it into the net as we seem to be trying to do. I’m just thinking most fans would like us to be more in games when the 80 minute mark comes around. We went into slow motion against palace when we came out for the second half passing sideways and backwards with no urgency.

That’s fine when you are winning 1-0 but gets a bit wearing when you actually need to get back into a game.

Also we can’t do a Pep and just buy the best players in the world so we have to play in a more pragmatic way.

Trying to play like city with inferior players just isn’t working.

[CoolClaret]

First presser I’ve noticed with a challenging question in there straight away:

https://youtu.be/RUg3ClpnZBE?si=Uluc1Jm1_PSpYhER

[jojomk1]

My first question is

Is the system he is currently trying to play so different from that of last season - if at all ?

If the answer is no, why has he brought in so many new, young players who seem to be really struggling to adapt to "his" system. Did he and the recruitment team see them playing to a similar level when scouted - and if someone say they were just recruited off stats then that is totally irresponsible

We keep being told that one of the problems is that we did not expect this promotion to the Premier League so soon and it would be a case of supporting, grooming, improving young players at Championship level to then be ready to make the move to a higher grade of football standards seen at Premier League level in a couple of years time

OK - so we then get promotion before we are ready (in terms of VK/Pace's planning)

Given VK's own experience of standards that are played at Premier League level, why did he then therefore see fit to continue a policy of signing inexperienced youth that was never going to work at this higher level - some experience was clearly needed to supplement the squad

Whether it is the style, formation, tactics, recruitment or experience, we are currently well off the level required to stay up and something has to change

The Premier League is not a place where you can continually change the starting eleven just to give all of these young guys a "bit" of experience

[Hipper]

I won’t deviate and take myself into anything other than making sure we stay on plan, we stay ready to get the best out of this team.

Surely before anyone can comment on VK 'staying on plan' we need to know what the plan is.

What is 'the plan'? It may not necessarily include staying up.

[Dark Cloud]

I don’t think anyone is asking him to deviate from his principles. We would love his team to play 200 passes and walk it into the net as we seem to be trying to do. I’m just thinking most fans would like us to be more in games when the 80 minute mark comes around. We went into slow motion against palace when we came out for the second half passing sideways and backwards with no urgency.

That’s fine when you are winning 1-0 but gets a bit wearing when you actually need to get back into a game.

Also we can’t do a Pep and just buy the best players in the world so we have to play in a more pragmatic way.

Trying to play like city with inferior players just isn’t working.

Certainly agree re stringing loads of passes together which is ok unless they never actually take you anywhere. You mention against Palace, but I thought it was even worse against Utd. We were a goal down, having loads of possession and it was clear they were no great shakes and yet we must have wasted 30 minutes of the second half playing triangles between the goalie and the two CBs. Utd, unsurprisingly, just sat back and watched us do it.

[brexit]

I won’t deviate and take myself into anything other than making sure we stay on plan, we stay ready to get the best out of this team.

Surely before anyone can comment on VK 'staying on plan' we need to know what the plan is.

What is 'the plan'? It may not necessarily include staying up.

There has been speculation on other threads that "the plan" is a business one which is supported by flipping players regardless of division.

[Silkyskills1]

Silky you do realise I am not a professional manager, I am also not getting paid millions of pounds right?

This is literally what VK is paid to do. He is paid to find a system that works.

Not stick with a style that is failing. As mentioned again, we could go down as the worst premier league team in history at this rate and VK is saying he’s not going to change anything.

I know you are not a professional manager but you do have plenty of opinions on this board. No problem with that but with regards to our present awful form you have been asking for a 'change' in direction but with no specific detail of what it might involve.
Reminds me of the fan seeing his side surprisingly find themselves behind in a game shouting to the team 'do something' and expecting an upturn in fortune.

[Dark Cloud]

There has been speculation on other threads that "the plan" is a business one which is supported by flipping players regardless of division.

That came across pretty clearly in the Mission to Burnley, but we're not flipping anyone for more than we paid in the foreseeable future as they are more or less all looking keen, enthusiastic and out of their depth unfortunately.

[Kilson810]

Do we have the players to change?

[ClaretPete001]

Don’t really feel it is. I did think of Cornet but he looked like a Pace signing to me. Same with Weghorst, I think.

At that time Cornet talked a lot about how the Chairman had pursued (think he called him president) him. Also, Pace talked a lot about the recruitment committee he’d put together, that included him, Dyche and others.

That’s not to say Dyche didn’t play his part, or sanction the moves, just that I don’t imagine he was making omelettes for them.

Look at this summer (possibly cash constrained at Everton tbf) and he’s made a few ‘old pro/experienced’ loan signings in Young, Harrison, Danjuma and Beto, a massive striker, and Chermiti, a young one.

Just really my point being that I don’t sense a big shift in his approach at Everton. They’re all players I could’ve seen Bunrley being linked with. Time will tell in how he develops their squad, but it wouldn’t shock me if when he leaves they have a squad that’s older than when he joined and lacking attacking flair, that’s all.

Not to say he didn’t do an outstanding job for us and I’d have a few of them back in a heartbeat, just an observation it was pretty unsustainable for us, particularly the number leaving on frees.

Re: VK the BBC ran a report asking whether he should be sacked recently. Not sure he’ll get many favours from the press for being likeable, but more likely because they think this is where Burnley should be/we don’t deserve to be here so there’s no expectation of anything different.

Not sure how Dyche came into this but I'm not sure the facts corroborate this...

In 2017/18 we finished 7th, in the European season we finished 15th and in 2019/20 we finished 10th.

After that the investment dried up and relegation and an ageing squad became somewhat inevitable.

VK has his chance to prove himself in this division and we are all hoping he does so.

[boatshed bill]

Do we have the players to change?

This is very much the point.
I doubt it.

[ClaretPete001]

Do we have the players to change?

Yes, double pivot Cullen and Cork with Berge and brownhill ahead of them....

Jay Rod leading the line Kolosheo causing havoc as a number 10. Narrow the pitch and play 4-5-1/4-3-3.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Certainly agree re stringing loads of passes together which is ok unless they never actually take you anywhere. You mention against Palace, but I thought it was even worse against Utd. We were a goal down, having loads of possession and it was clear they were no great shakes and yet we must have wasted 30 minutes of the second half playing triangles between the goalie and the two CBs. Utd, unsurprisingly, just sat back and watched us do it.

I didn’t see the United game so can’t comment on that.


If we could pass from back to front a lot more quickly I’m sure we would get more joy on the break and get the speed merchants involved more. The slow passing around especially in midfield feels very laboured at the moment and wastes a lot of our own time to actually do something positive in the game.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I know you are not a professional manager but you do have plenty of opinions on this board. No problem with that but with regards to our present awful form you have been asking for a 'change' in direction but with no specific detail of what it might involve.
Reminds me of the fan seeing his side surprisingly find themselves behind in a game shouting to the team 'do something' and expecting an upturn in fortune.

There’s been plenty of suggestions across numerous threads.

I did an in depth post on what Forrest did last year to change there points per game.

They were an open free flowing time that was struggling, they have set up be much more rigid and as a result had a dramatic increase in points.

[Big Vinny K]

In todays press conference did he not say that they (him, the board etc) had planned for all scenarios ?
I doubt that will be as linear as staying up and relegation.
It could be as detailed as relegation and potentially flipping some players who had done well or relegation and trying to go back up at the first attempt without selling any (or many) players.

Under his stewardship we were able to sell Wood, Cornet, Collins and McNeil at significant profit. There was nothing he could do about the contracts of Tarks, Mee and Pope being run down but he has tried to mitigate this happening again by extending contracts of players who did well last season.

I find it hard to believe that based on our dealings since the takeover that Pace and the board will not have planned for worst case scenarios. I think going up the way we did last season with a big positive net transfer spend was probably THE best case scenario they planned for.

Right now I think worst case scenario is getting relegated having spent what we have and not getting promoted next year. What the scenario plan for that is none of us know. With the players they have bought they will I am sure understand that they may not be able to sell those at big profits if they have had difficult or poor seasons. But that does not mean that is the only plan the owners will have developed.

[spt_claret]

Do we have the players to change?

We have plenty of pace (and cover at that) on both wide areas and in central attacking positions, although centre forward is limited if Foster & Obafemi are unavailable.
We have adequate options in central midfield, moreso if we play 3 for the added man's cover, although I would like an upgrade in January.
We could easily be a faster-breaking ambidextrous team with real counter attacking threat and direct dangermen looking for the outball on either wing. 442, 433, 4231, 4411, take your pick of formation but I'd lean 433 or 4231 with current available players.

[Kilson810]

Yes, double pivot Cullen and Cork with Berge and brownhill ahead of them....

Jay Rod leading the line Kolosheo causing havoc as a number 10. Narrow the pitch and play 4-5-1/4-3-3.

I wish it were true, Cork could barely move last season in the championship. PL players will breeze past him

[boatshed bill]

Pace? It has to be matched by other factors or it's useless.

[Silkyskills1]

There’s been plenty of suggestions across numerous threads.

I did an in depth post on what Forrest did last year to change there points per game.

They were an open free flowing time that was struggling, they have set up be much more rigid and as a result had a dramatic increase in points.

If I recall correctly you showed two different systems, the second of which appeared more compact than the first.
Yes, their results improved but I'm sure that was as a result of an influx of new players. The new players with so.e of the previous signings must have bought into a fresh system and fresh ideas. These are the areas that you continually fail to explain when you suggest that VK has to change. What specifically do you think he has to do ...... apart from change?

[ClaretPete001]

I wish it were true, Cork could barely move last season in the championship. PL players will breeze past him

That is a bit harsh.... he played over 40 games and we achieved over a 100 points barely getting beat.

And you could say the same thing about Jay Rod but he's started two games and scored two goals albeit offside but one only a toenail offside.

Smart players play percentages and cut down space. Of course, there will be times when the pace of the game bypasses him but I think he is worth a try.

Of course, he's 34 and in an ideal world you wouldn't play him but how can you play over 40 games in a Championship winning season and 3 months later put him out to pasture with a bag of hay and half an apple?

[Jakubclaret]

That is a bit harsh.... he played over 40 games and we achieved over a 100 points barely getting beat.

And you could say the same thing about Jay Rod but he's started two games and scored two goals albeit offside but one only a toenail offside.

Smart players play percentages and cut down space. Of course, there will be times when the pace of the game bypasses him but I think he is worth a try.

Of course, he's 34 and in an ideal world you wouldn't play him but how can you play over 40 games in a Championship winning season and 3 months later put him out to pasture with a bag of hay and half an apple?

It’s getting to the point where anybody & anything is worth a try being perfectly honest.

[Hipper]

In todays press conference did he not say that they (him, the board etc) had planned for all scenarios ?
I doubt that will be as linear as staying up and relegation.
It could be as detailed as relegation and potentially flipping some players who had done well or relegation and trying to go back up at the first attempt without selling any (or many) players.

Under his stewardship we were able to sell Wood, Cornet, Collins and McNeil at significant profit. There was nothing he could do about the contracts of Tarks, Mee and Pope being run down but he has tried to mitigate this happening again by extending contracts of players who did well last season.

I find it hard to believe that based on our dealings since the takeover that Pace and the board will not have planned for worst case scenarios. I think going up the way we did last season with a big positive net transfer spend was probably THE best case scenario they planned for.

Right now I think worst case scenario is getting relegated having spent what we have and not getting promoted next year. What the scenario plan for that is none of us know. With the players they have bought they will I am sure understand that they may not be able to sell those at big profits if they have had difficult or poor seasons. But that does not mean that is the only plan the owners will have developed.

The other factor with relegation, possibly, is that some of the player purchase agreements may include a fee for staying up. For example, if we are relegated, will Trafford cost less?

[Boss Hogg]

Thought the questioning at the pre match press conference had improved considerably. They actually asked VK challenging questions for once. There’s more pressure despite VK’s outwardly calmness.

[spt_claret]

That is a bit harsh.... he played over 40 games and we achieved over a 100 points barely getting beat.

And you could say the same thing about Jay Rod but he's started two games and scored two goals albeit offside but one only a toenail offside.

Smart players play percentages and cut down space. Of course, there will be times when the pace of the game bypasses him but I think he is worth a try.

Of course, he's 34 and in an ideal world you wouldn't play him but how can you play over 40 games in a Championship winning season and 3 months later put him out to pasture with a bag of hay and half an apple?

Cork is too slow for the style we're playing. He was too slow for it last year and had to rack up a lot of tactical stopper yellows. Technically he's a great midfielder, in terms of intelligence & experience as good as any, but he hasn't the physical demands for this system. He could still do a job but we'd have to play a midfield 3 with 2 pressers and runners besides him to make up for his lack of dynamism/energy in the middle or from a defensive perspective, we'd get out-pressed, out-ran and out-paced in the middle.

The problem is I'm not convinced he really has the passing range to make this work from an attacking perspective if we did such a switch. Cullen might but is struggling. Gudmundsson might and has slightly more legs left in him, but isn't as good defensively. Cork could only play that sitting midfield anchor role, setting the tempo, and if he can't be doing Pirlo-balls all over the shop then he's going to need two real runners to move for him to have an outball. Basically I can understand why Kompany would favour Cullen over Cork at this time, even if Cullen's struggling he has similar/maybe a little better passing range and has more pressing & pace. We'd need a colossal style overhaul to accomodate Cork and while I'm all for a style adjustment, I can't see us making one that big and I'm not sure it's worth it when we have other players who could serve the role he'd serve with a bit more in their legs.

[Big Vinny K]

The other factor with relegation, possibly, is that some of the player purchase agreements may include a fee for staying up. For example, if we are relegated, will Trafford cost less?

Agree.
Could be a long list of mitigating actions planned.
New investors
Refinancing options
Built in options within existing financing agreements around restructuring loans in case of relegation
Obvious ones like wage reductions in players contracts
Even the recent contract extensions to the likes of Benson, Foster, Zaroury etc have financial consequences on amortisation
Etc etc

Rather than jump to extremes basket case clubs who have gone bust is it not better to ask why would investors and in particular Pace who has moved himself and his family to a new country risk everything by “betting the ranch” rather than do what most sound business men would do and try and plan for as many scenarios as possible and especially plan for the worst case scenarios.

Transfer fees are also often inflated and the ones quoted can be to help create headlines as the highest possible ones if lots of conditions are met. Last January the fees reported for buying Foster were all much higher than the £7m VK said in the documentary. I personally think that the one quoted for Beyer is much higher than the actual fee (based on what I was told from the closest source you could get and the same source who told me that we had an option to buy Beyer when his German club was fabricating stuff in the media)

[Anthonini]

Yes, double pivot Cullen and Cork with Berge and brownhill ahead of them....

Jay Rod leading the line Kolosheo causing havoc as a number 10. Narrow the pitch and play 4-5-1/4-3-3.

Am I dreaming here?
That would be a change though...

[KRBFC]

Yes, double pivot Cullen and Cork with Berge and brownhill ahead of them....

Jay Rod leading the line Kolosheo causing havoc as a number 10. Narrow the pitch and play 4-5-1/4-3-3.

Jesus

[scamander]

It is not just the players but the managers in the PL are generally far more tactically astute than those that VK came up against regularly in the Championship.
Knowing how VK is going to set his team up and realising that he has no Plan B makes us canon fodder for the best teams in this league.

Just to elaborate on this. It's more probable that the players are more tactically aware and able to understand what's being asked of them. There's often a discussion by a team about why X is playing and the chances are it is because that player, perhaps not as fancy as a rival in his position, understands his role better in the wider team structure. The manager knows that they are less likely to leave a gap or not make a rehearsed run as part of a move.

At the PL level the game is measured in half seconds and inches, adherence to a game plan and not being a liability team structure wise is an unseen skill set which is worth a lot.

[Kilson810]

That is a bit harsh.... he played over 40 games and we achieved over a 100 points barely getting beat.

And you could say the same thing about Jay Rod but he's started two games and scored two goals albeit offside but one only a toenail offside.

Smart players play percentages and cut down space. Of course, there will be times when the pace of the game bypasses him but I think he is worth a try.

Of course, he's 34 and in an ideal world you wouldn't play him but how can you play over 40 games in a Championship winning season and 3 months later put him out to pasture with a bag of hay and half an apple?

He did well but the step up in quality is massive (as we are being reminded of). Would love to be proved wrong but I just think he would be chasing shadows.

There has to be doubts about his fitness as well because he has missed the bench a few times (I still think he is a decent squad player).

[deanothedino]

He could still do a job but we'd have to play a midfield 3 with 2 pressers and runners besides him to make up for his lack of dynamism/energy in the middle or from a defensive perspective, we'd get out-pressed, out-ran and out-paced in the middle.

We’ve been getting out pressed, outran and outpaced in the middle all season. Not sure it can get much worse.

We have more points in the past 2 seasons when Cork starts than when he doesn’t. His legs may have gone, but he still brings something to the side.

[brexit]

I don't know accurate this site is https://understat.com/team/Burnley/2023, but it looks 4-1-4-1 is our best chance of not leaking goals

[spt_claret]

We’ve been getting out pressed, outran and outpaced in the middle all season. Not sure it can get much worse.

We have more points in the past 2 seasons when Cork starts than when he doesn’t. His legs may have gone, but he still brings something to the side.

I agree on the first point, which is why I keep banging the drum for a midfield 3 and a more fast-transition approach. I just don't think that a midfield 3 with Cork would solve that issue as we'd lose the advantage gained from that extra body because even if he has the nous & technical ability to be a sitting midfielder at this level, we need someone who has enough in the tank for the physical/athletic side of the game as well, and with 3 in midfield we'd definitely need it to offset the reduced attack. I'd try him for a game because we've tried everything else but I don't think he'd solve the problem.

[Chester Perry]

A piece in todays Guardian on this topic - gives lots of details, but possibly the most salient part for fans is the final paragraph

Kompany wedded to style of play but statistics do not bode well for Burnley
Clarets face struggle to avoid relegation after becoming the first English top flight side to lose their opening six home matches
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... or-burnley

[ClaretPete001]

Jesus

Does anybody over the age of 12 actually use emojis to mock people? Genuine question, it's an interesting sociological phenomenon.

[ClaretPete001]

He did well but the step up in quality is massive (as we are being reminded of). Would love to be proved wrong but I just think he would be chasing shadows.

There has to be doubts about his fitness as well because he has missed the bench a few times (I still think he is a decent squad player).

They are all chasing shadows. City, Chelsea and Spurs scored 3,4 and 5 at Turf. Palace score twice and only bothered to venture past the half way line twice.

It's not like I am picking Cork over Bernardo Silva. But yes, it may be too much for him but we're going to the Emirates against a team that quickly transitions into 5 forwards and to be honest I think an older head could organise things better and maybe play a bit smarter to give us a bit more solidity at the back.

Otherwise, you are back to Cullen and Brownhill or Berge and it hasn't worked.