Getting promoted too early

[Vegas Claret]

Yes. We also have two points fewer than Derby County had after 12 games, the season they came down with that record number of lowest points.

I'm actually amazed people aren't more angry.

i think people are bewildered and left scratching their heads mate, people are very disconnected and it's sad to see how quickly that has happened

[jos]

I saw an interview with Craig Bellamy quite early on during last season he stated that “if Burnley got promoted it would probably be too early as the team would not be ready for it, but if it happened then you can’t really say no”.

[northernpowerhouse]

No such thing. If we hadn't been promoted we would have had to sell Benson, Brownhill and/or Zaroury and would have been even further from PL ready. The sooner the better, always.

[Burnley1989]

I saw an interview with Craig Bellamy quite early on during last season he stated that “if Burnley got promoted it would probably be too early as the team would not be ready for it, but if it happened then you can’t really say no”.

Yeah, that’s one that sticks in my head, along with a few VK comments that give the impression he believes the gap is too big to compete against most sides, you have to imagine that filters down to the players . We have competed a lot better with previous players & squads that have far less quality but more fight.

[CoolClaret]

This is going to sound really odd as I loved winning the league but I honestly wouldn’t be angry if we went down this time, I’ve remembered why I disliked the premier league so much in the last few seasons we were in it.
I’d probably be a bit gutted for a few weeks but I don’t think as much as previous relegations, I just hate not being able to lay a glove on teams and being consigned to defeat before kick off most weeks

Getting battered in the PL is favourable than the same in the Champ though.

We have this rosey view of the Championship because our last three times there have all resulted in automatic promotion.

Nothing beats the feeling of a few wins in the PL.

Coming off United away with that 2-0 win that times was absolutely mega.

[fidelcastro]

This is going to sound really odd as I loved winning the league but I honestly wouldn’t be angry if we went down this time, I’ve remembered why I disliked the premier league so much in the last few seasons we were in it.
I’d probably be a bit gutted for a few weeks but I don’t think as much as previous relegations, I just hate not being able to lay a glove on teams and being consigned to defeat before kick off most weeks

You're right, of course, but it's the fact we can't lay a glove on teams that has made me the most angry. That fact lies squarely at the foot of the manager, who has spent 100 million quid rather badly in my opinion.

As for the Championship, it's a great league to be in if you're doing well, but if you're struggling, it can be bloody awful from memory.

I guess time will tell, but with the only three other teams we can finish above picking up points here and there, I can't see anything but defeat most weeks.

Hope I'm wrong, obviously.

[Dyched]

What I don’t get is that this is a 3/4 year project. Yet half our team was on loan, they would have left regardless. Now, say we finished 7th, those loan players carried us to that position, then went back. We’d no chance of keeping them and we’d be in the same position as now, but a league lower. You don’t have a 3 or 4 year project based around loanees.

[Vegas Claret]

Yeah, that’s one that sticks in my head, along with a few VK comments that give the impression he believes the gap is too big to compete against most sides, you have to imagine that filters down to the players . We have competed a lot better with previous players & squads that have far less quality but more fight.

battled hardened men, I don't think we don't fight now but you can see the lack of experience and street smartness

[Spijed]

Yeah, that’s one that sticks in my head, along with a few VK comments that give the impression he believes the gap is too big to compete against most sides, you have to imagine that filters down to the players . We have competed a lot better with previous players & squads that have far less quality but more fight.

That's the impression you get with the current side. They don't seem willing to put their bodies on the line to fight for every point.

[jojomk1]

That's the impression you get with the current side. They don't seem willing to put their bodies on the line to fight for every point.

Or is it maybe because they are somewhat bewildered with the standards of the Premier League and, indeed, are afraid of what they see

With the exceptions of Redmond and Berge, maybe O'Shea and Muric, none of the new signings had any experience of playing at such a high level of skill, pace and intensity

When you are being outplayed by the majority of the opponents maybe they just lose any confidence in their own ability to compete

What signs of confidence does VK show to them

We don't know what happens or is said on the training ground but we know he changes the team virtually every game so nobody is certain whether they will be playing or not (except Trafford - and that is not a snide remark, just fact)

I am not so sure blame can be laid on the players - the were just not ready for this level (and they probably think that themselves)

[bumba]

This is going to sound really odd as I loved winning the league but I honestly wouldn’t be angry if we went down this time, I’ve remembered why I disliked the premier league so much in the last few seasons we were in it.
I’d probably be a bit gutted for a few weeks but I don’t think as much as previous relegations, I just hate not being able to lay a glove on teams and being consigned to defeat before kick off most weeks

If someone gave me the option to take half the cash for promotion but stay down I'd snap there hands off, I've hated the premier league for years I'm watching less and less games and rarely ever watch MOTD now. Much prefer European leagues now or lower league football.
Not sure how the championship will change once VAR filters down though.
Premier league is a business league
Championship is a fan league.
The only worry I have about relegation is how the club would end up

[ashtonlongsider]

There's no such thing as getting promoted too early. You take the chance when it's offered. For me, the biggest mistake we made was not reversing the Luton game, especially after the opening game against City. Accepted a win wouldn't be nailed, on but the crowd would have been up for it and a win could have given us some much needed momentum and confidence moving forward.

[fidelcastro]

There's no such thing as getting promoted too early. You take the chance when it's offered. For me, the biggest mistake we made was not reversing the Luton game, especially after the opening game against City. Accepted a win wouldn't be nailed, on but the crowd would have been up for it and a win could have given us some much needed momentum and confidence moving forward.

We won at Luton anyway. Kompany then changed the team for the next game.

[Boss Hogg]

We didn't get promoted too early. We have completely messed up our recruitment, to follow a venture capitalist approach.

Additionally, we have signed far too many wingers and still not replaced Cork.

In particular, our ability to defend is hopeless. Also, we are too easily bullied all over the pitch and our manager is too stubborn. It's okay to put the ball out for a throw in if under pressure.

All of the above. Its not really about getting promoted too early.

[Kilson810]

This is going to sound really odd as I loved winning the league but I honestly wouldn’t be angry if we went down this time, I’ve remembered why I disliked the premier league so much in the last few seasons we were in it.
I’d probably be a bit gutted for a few weeks but I don’t think as much as previous relegations, I just hate not being able to lay a glove on teams and being consigned to defeat before kick off most weeks

Would you be angry if we ended up with less points than Derby and totally embarrassed ourselves as the worst PL team ever?

[boatshed bill]

I think the original plan was to be prepared take a couple of seasons' development before promotion.
Fact is we couldn't really help but win the Championship.

[Boss Hogg]

You get the feeling some are happy to go backwards to get back on track. It’s only a small town and we used to be in the 4th division mentality. It’s a good job industry leaders don’t think like this. Most other clubs would have given anything to have our place in the PL. Let’s fight for it and make the right decisions to retain it.

[Burnley1989]

Would you be angry if we ended up with less points than Derby and totally embarrassed ourselves as the worst PL team ever?

A little bit but I don’t think that will happen, neither do you

[Quicknick]

A little bit but I don’t think that will happen, neither do you

Agreed. No way will it happen. We may not even go down.

[KRBFC]

I know you have gone off topic slightly to reply to another poster, but do you think we got promoted too early because them two players aren't ready?

It’s not just two players though is it?

[Jakubclaret]

I think the original plan was to be prepared take a couple of seasons' development before promotion.
Fact is we couldn't really help but win the Championship.

It'd be an highly unusual action plan to say hey lads take your foot off the gas this isn't supposed to be happening

[boatshed bill]

It'd be an highly unusual action plan to say hey lads take your foot off the gas this isn't supposed to be happening

Exactly.

[KRBFC]

We won at Luton anyway. Kompany then changed the team for the next game.

What you obviously forgot to mention was we played 3 games in 7 days and looked spent second half against Luton. Newcastle away, Luton away then Chelsea at home.

[Jakubclaret]

Apart from the slight upturn palace & arsenal they have looked shot in all games & at certain sporadic points when they have looked lively it hasn't been sustained for long.

[Quickenthetempo]

It’s not just two players though is it?

Do you think these players will come on more with the better players in training or playing easy games in the championship?

I would think one season in the championship is plenty for any player who wants to make it at Premier league level.
There's too many bad habits to pick up the lower down you go in sport.

[CrosspoolClarets]

This thread reads like a self help therapy group.

I refer to my thread last week about the stats being fairly encouraging. We may stay up, we may not (the Bournemouth and Blades results last weekend were disappointing). But the stats aren’t disastrous, many goals conceded from errors not being overrun. Trossard’s goal being the first we have conceded from a header in the league (I think) is also encouraging.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72826&p=2216525&hil ... s#p2216525

So I don’t see any argument for being promoted too early, nor that we are worse than our main rivals.

[Quickenthetempo]

This thread reads like a self help therapy group.

I refer to my thread last week about the stats being fairly encouraging. We may stay up, we may not (the Bournemouth and Blades results last weekend were disappointing). But the stats aren’t disastrous, many goals conceded from errors not being overrun. Trossard’s goal being the first we have conceded from a header in the league (I think) is also encouraging.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72826&p=2216525&hil ... s#p2216525

So I don’t see any argument for being promoted too early, nor that we are worse than our main rivals.

It was a chance for the people that say we were promoted too early, to give their reasons.
None have yet.

[KRBFC]

Do you think these players will come on more with the better players in training or playing easy games in the championship?

I would think one season in the championship is plenty for any player who wants to make it at Premier league level.
There's too many bad habits to pick up the lower down you go in sport.

I just think time, physical growth and training in a competitive environment will see a lot of them shine. This is by far and away the most talented squad I have ever seen at BFC, it’s just really young, naive and inexperienced because of that it’s full of individual errors and inconsistency.

For example I believe Beyer has to make that mistake against Palace whilst he’s young to learn from it, it’s great for his development but not the teams short term results.

Clearly some fans don’t want to give this manager and group the time it needs, so I’m not sure where we go. A new manager doesn’t speed up the process.

[boyyanno]

This thread reads like a self help therapy group.

I refer to my thread last week about the stats being fairly encouraging. We may stay up, we may not (the Bournemouth and Blades results last weekend were disappointing). But the stats aren’t disastrous, many goals conceded from errors not being overrun. Trossard’s goal being the first we have conceded from a header in the league (I think) is also encouraging.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72826&p=2216525&hil ... s#p2216525

So I don’t see any argument for being promoted too early, nor that we are worse than our main rivals.

I was beginning to worry then until I saw this.

Thank god being bottom of the league doesn't matter as long as the stats aren't disastrous.

[Quickenthetempo]

I just think time, physical growth and training in a competitive environment will see a lot of them shine. This is by far and away the most talented squad I have ever seen at BFC, it’s just really young, naive and inexperienced because of that it’s full of individual errors and inconsistency.

For example I believe Beyer has to make that mistake against Palace whilst he’s young to learn from it, it’s great for his development but not the teams short term results.

Clearly some fans don’t want to give this manager and group the time it needs, so I’m not sure where we go. A new manager doesn’t speed up the process.

The problem we have is not enough experienced players to help cover their mistakes.

[CoolClaret]

I just think time, physical growth and training in a competitive environment will see a lot of them shine. This is by far and away the most talented squad I have ever seen at BFC, it’s just really young, naive and inexperienced because of that it’s full of individual errors and inconsistency.

For example I believe Beyer has to make that mistake against Palace whilst he’s young to learn from it, it’s great for his development but not the teams short term results.

Clearly some fans don’t want to give this manager and group the time it needs, so I’m not sure where we go. A new manager doesn’t speed up the process.

Really? Most talented?

Must be impressed by by different things - a few nice touches on a pitch but ultimately being powder puff doesn't mean anything in my book.

We are giving them time - given the actual results I think the fanbase has been decent in all honesty.

The pressure is on now though - two huge games coming up at home. It's sink or swim time.

[fidelcastro]

What you obviously forgot to mention was we played 3 games in 7 days and looked spent second half against Luton. Newcastle away, Luton away then Chelsea at home.

That plan worked well then.

[KRBFC]

Really? Most talented?

Must be impressed by by different things - a few nice touches on a pitch but ultimately being powder puff doesn't mean anything in my book.

We are giving them time - given the actual results I think the fanbase has been decent in all honesty.

The pressure is on now though - two huge games coming up at home. It's sink or swim time.

Top goalscorers in the Euro 2024 qualifiers is

Lukaku, Ronaldo, Hojlund, Kane, Amdouni, Haaland, Mbappe (in order)

[bumba]

Top goalscorers in the Euro 2024 qualifiers is

Lukaku, Ronaldo, Hojlund, Kane, Amdouni, Haaland, Mbappe (in order)

Tough group Switzerland..... Romania, Israel, Kosovo, Belarus and Andorra

[boyyanno]

Top goalscorers in the Euro 2024 qualifiers is

Lukaku, Ronaldo, Hojlund, Kane, Amdouni, Haaland, Mbappe (in order)

Ali Daei is currently sat 2nd on the all time international top goalscorers list below Ronaldo and above Messi.

[KRBFC]

Tough group Switzerland..... Romania, Israel, Kosovo, Belarus and Andorra

Trust you to find the negative, all of the groups are easy for the top nations. I don’t think Swiss are a top nation either.

[dougcollins]

You can say we've dealt with it poorly - so far - but you can't say we were promoted too early.

[KRBFC]

Ali Daei is currently sat 2nd on the all time international top goalscorers list below Ronaldo and above Messi.

Conference league top goalscorers 22/23

1. Amdouni and Cabral

Above the likes of Jarrod Bowen, Dovbyk, Jovic, Pavlidis, Gift Orban, Nico Gonzalez.

[CoolClaret]

Conference league top goalscorers 22/23

1. Amdouni and Cabral

Above the likes of Jarrod Bowen, Dovbyk, Jovic, Pavlidis, Gift Orban, Nico Gonzalez.

Not being funny like but in Basel's group were:

- Slovan Bratislava
- Pyunik (who?)
- Zalgris (who?)

That's three farmer teams.

Amdouni has a bit - clearly but has to do far more than he is doing to be a PL player.

I really do think people these days get impressed over a bit of a highlight reel to share on social media (see the glee of the Amdouni one against Arsenal). Call me old fashioned but I like players that impose themself on a game and play effective football.

Chris Wood bagged 40 in 150 for us in the PL yet people still called him a donkey, Zeki has had a few good touches and one well taken goal and he's the second coming for some people.

[boyyanno]

Conference league top goalscorers 22/23

1. Amdouni and Cabral

Above the likes of Jarrod Bowen, Dovbyk, Jovic, Pavlidis, Gift Orban, Nico Gonzalez.

So what's your point? Goals that are scored for different teams count for Burnley now?

Or is it, Amdouni has scored a lot for other teams so he's clearly amazing?

If so I'll refer you back to Ali Daei, let you know he's still second between Messi and Ronaldo and above Kane, Haaland and anyone else you've mentioned.

Or alternatively I got 8 at the weekend so maybe I should start upfront for us. Doesn't matter who it was against apparently.

[spt_claret]

re. Amdouni- you can only score against what you're up against. If him scoring against those teams is meaningless what does it say of other players who aren't scoring against them?

As for "promoted too early" people put way too much stock into Bellamy's single quote. As Chester says it's demonstrably not been the truth of the mentality based on every action we've seen. Even in Mission to Burnley, Pace outright admits that the financial spending went overboard and promotion is a necessity- that says to me that he was always looking at it as a "we need to bankroll our way right back".

Even in terms of 'the project' or some CCP-esque Five Year Plan it doesn't make sense to think we were promoted too early.
Warning (LONG read ahead, it's a habit I can't seem to shake):

The model is to sign young players, develop, sell at profit.

If a young team are able to storm the Championship it stands to reason that their development is better served competing at a higher level rather than lingering at that level. If a player has the capacity to be that effective in that division, they're probably going to learn more a division up, it represents a natural progession.

It's only players that DON'T storm it at that tier or who don't play much who you'd say need a bit more time in their development. For example the likes of Churlinov, promotion was definitely too soon for him and he's a bit stuck now, or Twine who had impressive touches/moments but didn't get nearly enough gametime to reasonably develop (although I still think keeping him around the team might have been handy, as he has good 360 movement and a dedicated set piece specialist is always an asset in the Prem look at JWP).

If the model is for players to appreciate in value, they will do that much more by storming the Championship and getting promoted than spending 1-2 years making a decent fist of it in or around the playoffs. A 22-23 yr old who at the first time of asking is a regular starter in a 101-pt title team appreciates in value much more and much faster than if that same player is part of a Boro, Millwall etc. near-miss or Norwich/Blackburn-style also ran. Because then he's 24-25 and maybe he's looked good in that team but the team's not really pushed on, he goes for far less money than the 22 year old title smasher.

Regardless of financial security etc., assurances of continued solvency via player trading or parachute payments, being in the Prem always improves this model. You have more money, more continued assurance of cashflow, but more than just that you have reach and status. The global exposure helps attract investors or has people coming to you, who just may be able to spot the next big thing for you. Yes, transfer prices 'go up' but it's not so much about "we know they have more money so will hold out for a bigger fee" as much as it is a higher quality, so more expensive market you're shopping in to get a plug and play player who can hit the ground if not running then at least at a jog and develop over the year.

Additionally, development time is longer in the Prem. Take the scenario above- the 24-25yr old whos impressed in a good but not promoted Championship team doesn't grow in value as much or as quickly. Part of that is because in the Championship- a lot more teams are in the mix for promotion, you're up against a weaker and generally more even standard (regardless of the current top 4), lots of clubs always have a chance so if you aren't pulling your team to promotion it raises bigger questions about your development. In the Prem over half of the league will only ever be also-rans, and the majority of the other half are racing for 4th, not 1st. There's much less room to move, a 25 year old is less likely to EVER drive an average team up the league, so as long as they're in the side and doing well, they'll keep appreciating in value. It's why relegation wouldn't necessarily crash our new guys' value- IF we were scoring more, racking up more points, conceding fewer goals and generally getting better output from our performances. It's an entirely different context to the Championship- 'making a good fist of it' and being not far off, is far more financially appreciable in the PL than in the Championship.

However, in terms of profit relative to investmen the reverse is probably true. The PL player might be be worth more than the Championship equivalent but the Championship guy might be worth more relative & proportionate to the initial outlay- bigger profit and bigger % profit margin, which is the real key to this model, it's not just about making big money on players it's about making money relative to the initial investment because that gives you a bigger potential to do it again. The competitive Championship also-ran might have been signed for £2m, then after 2 years in the Championship, goes for say, £10m. The same player in the Prem may have cost £10m, then after a couple of decent years goes for £40m. One's a bigger profit, but the other is more recyclable. Buy a £1m player, sell him for £10m, you have the chance to do it 10 more times from that. Buy a £10m player, sell him for £30m- bigger profit but only got 3 more swings out of it. The weird result of this is that being a plucky yo-yo club who reliably fights well for survival then blitzes promotion the next year can theoretically be more profitable than being a 12-16th place PL also-ran. 24-month boom-bust-boom cycle. Boom-bust cycles can generate a lot of money if you're a savvy investor and ALK will have plenty of experience of such cycles from their time in finance.

However that's also a model that gets thrown out by 1 bad year- go down with a whimper and you're not converting those expensive players into smaller-margin but bigger absolute profits, you're not getting the absolute profit needed to repeat the cycle. Don't get promoted, and you're not converting those cheaper players into bigger-margin but smaller absolute profits, you're not getting the margins needed to repeat the cycle. It's one that works a treat if it keeps working but needs promotion at the first attempt every time, and competitive efforts at survival every time. By contrast, a model geared around staying in the PL and developing players over 2-3 years in the PL as I already explained above is going to more reliably produce a large profit on players compared to developing them over 2-3 years in the Championship as a nearly-team. Not as big margins or clever flipping, but less risk provided you stay up and keep giving them that chance to develop in the Prem. The two models can co-exist, you can plan to be a yo-yo club for a few years to build up plenty of capital to then transition into the Premier League's proving-ground team, but they both want the same thing- as little time in the Championship as possible, either 1 year at a time max, or 0 years.

There's no scenario, whether we're trying to be a yo-yo club doing rapid player trading or wanting to let players develop over time in a guaranteed shop window before moving on, that we don't want to be in the Prem ASAP. There's no scenario where staying down in the Championship for a couple of years aids the project.

[bumba]

Trust you to find the negative, all of the groups are easy for the top nations. I don’t think Swiss are a top nation either.

Not finding any negative it's called realism.
If we signed Amdouni in our team last season he'd have hit 20 goals in the championship.
Switzerland are head and shoulders above those teams as we're Basel in their group.
I like Amdouni he's got something about him but his goalscoring record against those teams is irrelevant to his form for us, he is one I think will come good though.

[CoolClaret]

re. Amdouni- you can only score against what you're up against. If him scoring against those teams is meaningless what does it say of other players who aren't scoring against them?

Yeah no doubt - I like Amdouni, just need him to kick on now and really make a mark on the league - was a big money signing for us!

[spt_claret]

Yeah no doubt - I like Amdouni, just need him to kick on now and really make a mark on the league - was a big money signing for us!

He needs someone more mobile than Jay ahead of him who can either pull defences open with pace to create space for him to run into, or bully his way through as a holdup man to anchor play up top. Foster or Barnes basically. Amdouni's not the CAM in a 4231, he's not a target man in 433 but could probably be a Firminio-esque deep forward, but I think in an asymmetric 442 with a stronger or faster partner, he'd shine. In general his playstyle reminds me of a very continental offset second striker, halfway between the sort you see in Germany or Italy a lot (funny that). Somewhere between a Del Piero/Baggio and a Podolski/Muller.

[KRBFC]

I like Amdouni he's got something about him

he is one I think will come good though.

Well that’s my point, if some of these players develop into what they’re capable of becoming, 2 years down the line we will be a really exciting side.

If fans can’t even keep their toys in the pram for more than a few games then this attempt to become a good PL side in the future will be dead in the water.

It’s a shame how toxic fans on here have become, we signed one of the worlds brightest young goalkeepers in the summer and our fans on social media and here have absolutely crucified this young kid for what? because of a fee that isn’t his fault. Pathetic really and not at all supportive or helpful in this kid’s development, a young lad who’s trying his absolute best btw

[CoolClaret]

Well that’s my point, if some of these players develop into what they’re capable of becoming, 2 years down the line we will be a really exciting side.

If fans can’t even keep their toys in the pram for more than a few games then this attempt to become a good PL side in the future will be dead in the water.

It’s a shame how toxic fans on here have become, we signed one of the worlds brightest young goalkeepers in the summer and our fans on social media and here have absolutely crucified this young kid for what? because of a fee that isn’t his fault. Pathetic really

It’s not a ‘few games’ though is it - it’s twelve.

Your character arc of trying to be the voice of reason after multiple years of crucifying Dyche for much better offerings is rather hilarious.

Absolutely zero chance Pace and co signed off these transfers so that we could be good in two years. Obscene logic.

Barely seen any toxicity - again for the return we’ve seen I think it’s actually been quite placid.

The Traff thing done to death - hype ≠ ability

More over; tickets are north of £50 home and away and we’re meant to be happy with losing every game by 1.75 goals on average because we ‘might’ be decent in two years and our owners might make a few quid? Wtf?

[CoolClaret]

He needs someone more mobile than Jay ahead of him who can either pull defences open with pace to create space for him to run into, or bully his way through as a holdup man to anchor play up top. Foster or Barnes basically. Amdouni's not the CAM in a 4231, he's not a target man in 433 but could probably be a Firminio-esque deep forward, but I think in an asymmetric 442 with a stronger or faster partner, he'd shine. In general his playstyle reminds me of a very continental offset second striker, halfway between the sort you see in Germany or Italy a lot (funny that). Somewhere between a Del Piero/Baggio and a Podolski/Muller.

Yeah agreed he’s a second striker for me as well.

It’s a tough one because it’s a position that isn’t really a ‘thing’ in the modern game.

[KRBFC]

It’s not a ‘few games’ though is it - it’s twelve.

Your character arc of trying to be the voice of reason after multiple years of crucifying Dyche for much better offerings is rather hilarious.

Absolutely zero chance Pace and co signed off these transfers so that we could be good in two years. Obscene logic.

Barely seen any toxicity - again for the return we’ve seen I think it’s actually been quite placid.

The Traff thing done to death - hype ≠ ability

More over; tickets are north of £50 home and away and we’re meant to be happy with losing every game by 1.75 goals on average because we ‘might’ be decent in two years and our owners might make a few quid? Wtf?

I don’t care if our owners make money, I want us to be a good side and I see the potential, cry all you want, young players take time to develop. You can’t skip time, you can’t skip development.

Maybe some of you could learn from the Dyche era, we went down and came back stronger and better prepared.

I don’t think Pace expected instant performances from Odobert, Ramsey, Koleosho etc. Redmond, Berge a different story.

[Clive 1960]

absolutely rubbish if you are good enough to get promoted like we did last season you build on it and not throw it away by buying inexperienced young lad's who may or not get better, plus you should buy at least a couple of experienced pros to help out and roll there sleeves up and put up a fight not just think if we go 1 down that's it , to me we are losing our identity of what the club means to the fan's as we are passionate about our club and we want to see our team fight and show some pride for that shirt not just roll over .

[CoolClaret]

I don’t care if our owners make money, I want us to be a good side and I see the potential, cry all you want, young players take time to develop. You can’t skip time, you can’t skip development.

Maybe some of you could learn from the Dyche era, we went down and came back stronger and better prepared.

I don’t think Pace expected instant performances from Odobert, Ramsey, Koleosho etc. Redmond, Berge a different story.

It’s chalk and cheese from the first Dyche promo. We’d been in the PL for 6 straight years before last year, we’re a completely different club now.

Everyone wants us to be a good side. I just can’t see how being shite for a season and going down on a whimper (especially with pushing our finances like we have) is good for the long term of the club.

Take your arg to its logical conclusion - why not sink 50 million on 16 year olds with potential and take 5 seasons to be unreal… because that’s ludicrous

You have to have some consideration for the short term and you have to make a go of staying up when presented with the chance.

Claiming that it’s two years in the making is obscene - we had a ready made squad good to go that needed small additions; not wholesale changes.