Everton docked 10 points
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Minimum requirement is maximum effort!Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:56 pmSemi justice it should have been 20 points
We now need to kick on in our games 6 points in next. 2 games a minimum requirement
Ohhh hang on a minute
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
if they go into administration isn't that another huge points deduction ?Chester Perry wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:54 pmand how will we do that if they go into administration? which is a possibility if the sale to 777 Partners is blocked
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Leeds went down last season though, so they’ve potentially got grounds to sueCrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:06 pmLeeds didn’t go down that season so it should be just us.
Everton were only 4 points ahead of us with a worse goal difference so even a 4 point deduction that season and they would have gone down. All adds to our argument which seems a strong one.
Re: Everton docked 10 points
Why have Everton been punished far quicker than Man city?
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Yeah it could get very expensive for them as we missed out on £100m as well as those other clubs.CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:47 pmI expect BFC, primarily, in that the 3 years ended in 2021/22, to sue them, and I would expect it to settle out of court for far, far more than what Sheffield United got after the Tevez issue (£20m).
Everton won’t enter administration because of the further points deduction and the impact it has on the stadium etc. How can they continue building the stadium for next season if in administration?
If we get, for example, £50m (though I am guessing more) that would be huge in terms of our transfer kitty either in January or next summer.
Also worth factoring in that if we get relegated again due to Everton having a multi-year Premier League squad and us having a brand new one, our loss could be argued to be based on two relegations, not one. That’s why I would expect a quick out of court settlement but not until the appeal has concluded.
Any fine would still be spunked on wingers though
Re: Everton docked 10 points
Not just City. Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U and now Newcastle. They just fiddle the books supposedly within the rules. I find it all a bit hypcritical that Everton and teams in lower leagues like Derby get punished while the big clubs get away with it season after season.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
I think the City thing is a bit different. City are accused of chronic over-valuing I think. So some ambiguityGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:25 pmCity have been at it for longer
More to investigate, paperwork to go over and it’s currently in court anyway
If they’re going to nail City then they have to make sure their ducks are all lined up
Everton have just downright cheated and done an amateur job at hiding it
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
That’s absolutely lies, you used lay into Dyche after every defeat, why are you pretending you didn’t? At least stand on it, like I do.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:50 pmIf you remembered correctly (which of course you haven’t) I said that Pace would sack him, but I was Dyche in.
The difference in this circumstance is Pace will Sack VK and I could understand why.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Been watching SSN and had various people on including Sports Lawyers and Financial experts and there is much more to come out with the possibility Everton May have the points reduction removed or possibly reduced- been no mention of Clubs suing them
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
They reckon it could be 2/3 years before the City case is concluded.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Call me a cynic but why do I see the firm hand of Premier League law never coming into contact with them…Andreshotboots wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:47 pmThey reckon it could be 2/3 years before the City case is concluded.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
City have 112 charges against them or something like that. Everton had 1.Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:35 pmBecause they haven’t got Lord panic sorting their case out.
They also changed the rules since the City case came to light to deal with them quicker. I think they have something like 3 months to resolve it one way or the other.
They reckon, pre new rules the City case could still be a couple of YEARS away from an outcome..
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Its a joke init their just delaying the ( hopefully) inevitable.Andreshotboots wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:47 pmThey reckon it could be 2/3 years before the City case is concluded.
I hope they tumble down the leagues like rangers and get all their titles taken off them, good suggestion from Stan collymore on talk sport. I agree with him.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Everton will still stay up, and easily.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
SSN now going to discuss possible legal claim from Leicester that they would not have been relegated if Everton deducted points last season. Would have to be a private legal claim as it cannot be with Premier League .
Should be interesting
Should be interesting
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
It’s the PL chasing them through the courts, because the PL doesn’t have a time limit like UEFA doesjedi_master wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:49 pmCall me a cynic but why do I see the firm hand of Premier League law never coming into contact with them…
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Made me laugh.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Surely if we are going to make a claim against someone don't you have to show we've lost something. Whilst we might say we lost £100 million of Premier League income last season we got rid of high wage earners and cut our cloth accordingly. We also had an amazingly successful season on the field (which I enjoyed more then any Premier League season barring the first half of 2017-18) but I don't know how financially successful it was. In other words was our profit or loss any different if we had been in the top division last season? If not then it comes down to prestige and however you value that.CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:47 pmI expect BFC, primarily, in that the 3 years ended in 2021/22, to sue them, and I would expect it to settle out of court for far, far more than what Sheffield United got after the Tevez issue (£20m).
Everton won’t enter administration because of the further points deduction and the impact it has on the stadium etc. How can they continue building the stadium for next season if in administration?
If we get, for example, £50m (though I am guessing more) that would be huge in terms of our transfer kitty either in January or next summer.
Also worth factoring in that if we get relegated again due to Everton having a multi-year Premier League squad and us having a brand new one, our loss could be argued to be based on two relegations, not one. That’s why I would expect a quick out of court settlement but not until the appeal has concluded.
Re: Everton docked 10 points
Sean Dyche's Everton being sued for cheating and relegating Sean Dyche's Burnley is my favourite thing from today.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Prestige is immeasurable. Its why so many clubs spend a fortune tying to achieve it. Once you've reached the heights, it's almost a perpetual cycle of rewards if you then manage it appropriately
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
this will get reduced on appeal
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
I agree with those posted already that the 10 point deduction will likely be fairly irrelevant for us given that they seem much stronger than us this season. Either we start picking up points like Everton and leave the rest of the relegation candidates in our wake, or they end up miles ahead of us anyway.
What does interest me is this legal case. I don't like to see two historic clubs such as ours and Everton's becoming involved in a case like this. But we could certainly benefit from a nice £100m regardless of which league we're in. Do we know much about the likelihood that this does go ahead, the likelihood of it going in our favour, the process and who oversees the case? It could become very complicated to follow.
What does interest me is this legal case. I don't like to see two historic clubs such as ours and Everton's becoming involved in a case like this. But we could certainly benefit from a nice £100m regardless of which league we're in. Do we know much about the likelihood that this does go ahead, the likelihood of it going in our favour, the process and who oversees the case? It could become very complicated to follow.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
And they are still above us FFS
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
City are backed by serious oil money and will never suffer.Heaven forbid we upset the Arabs.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
I think even if the points deduction is reduced, it sounds like that won't affect a flurry of law suits and the Committee Chair seems to back the claims.
Re: Everton docked 10 points
I’m sick of people keep saying this won’t make a difference of course it bloody makes a difference it should do! It’s give us a massive advantage. Who do we think Everton are Man City??? They have had a purple patch of late so everyone thinks this is the real Everton winning every week? Are we going to carry picking up 4 points every 12 games surely not? It’s still a realistic possibility Everton finish above us.but people making out it’s no difference 10 points are talking b******s. Surely we have a purple patch at some point? Also Everton’s fixtures have been a lot better than ours.It’s just because we are still below them as it stands,we should finish ever so close to Everton now and I think it’s going to be really tight if Everton stay up are not,considering they have been 17th with a similar squad two seasons in a row.It needs looking at long term this 10 points from our point of view it’s huge.ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:57 pmI agree with those posted already that the 10 point deduction will likely be fairly irrelevant for us given that they seem much stronger than us this season. Either we start picking up points like Everton and leave the rest of the relegation candidates in our wake, or they end up miles ahead of us anyway.
What does interest me is this legal case. I don't like to see two historic clubs such as ours and Everton's becoming involved in a case like this. But we could certainly benefit from a nice £100m regardless of which league we're in. Do we know much about the likelihood that this does go ahead, the likelihood of it going in our favour, the process and who oversees the case? It could become very complicated to follow.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Gp8419 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:22 pmI’m sick of people keep saying this won’t make a difference of course it bloody makes a difference it should do! It’s give us a massive advantage. Who do we think Everton are Man City??? They have had a purple patch of late so everyone thinks this is the real Everton winning every week? Are we going to carry picking up 4 points every 12 games surely not? It’s still a realistic possibility Everton finish above us.but people making out it’s no difference 10 points are talking b******s. Surely we have a purple patch at some point? Also Everton’s fixtures have been a lot better than ours.It’s just because we are still below them as it stands,we should finish ever so close to Everton now and I think it’s going to be really tight if Everton stay up are not,considering they have been 17th with a similar squad two seasons in a row.It needs looking at long term this 10 points from our point of view it’s huge.
Yeah but it won’t stop the ‘slag the club’ epidemic that happing at the moment. It’s everywhere you look regarding Burnley. It’s pathetic
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
They have indeed but this commission only investigated the years to 2021/22 so it looks like they have a different argument - that the punishment should have been last season, not that Everton overspent last season.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:22 pmLeeds went down last season though, so they’ve potentially got grounds to sue
Feels a weaker argument to me.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
I have only skim read the 40 page document plus the additional document mentioning us, but I have already spotted that the clown on SSN at lunchtime was getting everything wrong, didn’t really mention the lower or upper threshold and the relevance of these as explained in the document.DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:45 pmBeen watching SSN and had various people on including Sports Lawyers and Financial experts and there is much more to come out with the possibility Everton May have the points reduction removed or possibly reduced- been no mention of Clubs suing them
But nonetheless they seem to think their talking heads have more knowledge than a judge, a KC and an accountant who formed the commission.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Just think of how many wingers we could sign with that compensation money
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
This is not the way I look at it.Hipper wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:13 pmSurely if we are going to make a claim against someone don't you have to show we've lost something. Whilst we might say we lost £100 million of Premier League income last season we got rid of high wage earners and cut our cloth accordingly. We also had an amazingly successful season on the field (which I enjoyed more then any Premier League season barring the first half of 2017-18) but I don't know how financially successful it was. In other words was our profit or loss any different if we had been in the top division last season? If not then it comes down to prestige and however you value that.
Our mitigating action as a club doesn’t limit Everton’s liability (if proven) for our initial loss of £100m.
We may subsequently have turned it around and been promoted but that initial loss is locked in. It could be further argued that it set us back years by having to sell established PL performers on the cheap like Pope, and badly affected the value of the club.
My own fag packet comes to a lot more than £100m but the barristers commissioned by the clubs involved will no doubt have a good feel for the correct way to do it.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
ISo Im reading that the 3 things that can happen are pts dedcution , a fine , and a transfer embargo until back under a legal trading loss , they have chosen just 1 aspect of pts deduction If 12 pts is the maximum pts deduction , what is the maximum fine?
With regards to City if the maximum is 12pt deduction and transfer embargo what fine would they need to be given to make a difference?
With regards to City if the maximum is 12pt deduction and transfer embargo what fine would they need to be given to make a difference?
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
All I can add (and I wouldn’t have just done 4 posts if I could edit ) is that the document Aggi has linked has a second document replying to Burnley et al back in May, by one of the commission, and my skim of this suggests that we can now ask the commission to move onto compensation matters but as this is commercial in confidence our club aren’t entitled to see the figures concerned.ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:57 pmI agree with those posted already that the 10 point deduction will likely be fairly irrelevant for us given that they seem much stronger than us this season. Either we start picking up points like Everton and leave the rest of the relegation candidates in our wake, or they end up miles ahead of us anyway.
What does interest me is this legal case. I don't like to see two historic clubs such as ours and Everton's becoming involved in a case like this. But we could certainly benefit from a nice £100m regardless of which league we're in. Do we know much about the likelihood that this does go ahead, the likelihood of it going in our favour, the process and who oversees the case? It could become very complicated to follow.
I may be wrong but that was my interpretation of the legal speak.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Woah, chill. Did you read the rest of my post, or just the first line?Gp8419 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:22 pmI’m sick of people keep saying this won’t make a difference of course it bloody makes a difference it should do! It’s give us a massive advantage. Who do we think Everton are Man City??? They have had a purple patch of late so everyone thinks this is the real Everton winning every week? Are we going to carry picking up 4 points every 12 games surely not? It’s still a realistic possibility Everton finish above us.but people making out it’s no difference 10 points are talking b******s. Surely we have a purple patch at some point? Also Everton’s fixtures have been a lot better than ours.It’s just because we are still below them as it stands,we should finish ever so close to Everton now and I think it’s going to be really tight if Everton stay up are not,considering they have been 17th with a similar squad two seasons in a row.It needs looking at long term this 10 points from our point of view it’s huge.
I was intentionally non-absolute in my wording, because of course it could make a difference. But my point for the past few weeks we've only really been looking at being better than Bournemouth, Sheffield United and Luton to stay up. Things can change, that's true, but unless Everton suddenly have a massive slump in form and start to show relegation form (which granted is possible just like every other club in the bottom half) then the -10 points likely won't make too much of a difference to whether we stay up because they will slowly make their way back up the league table. If you'd read my post you'd also see that I mention (and hope!) that we follow them up the league and away from the relegation places, in which case the -10 points also doesn't make too much of a difference to our season.
And if this 'slag the club epidemic' comment was aimed at me you might want to read my post history. I'm typically a very positive poster on here and have remained so despite our difficult start to the season.gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:27 pmYeah but it won’t stop the ‘slag the club’ epidemic that happing at the moment. It’s everywhere you look regarding Burnley. It’s pathetic
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Thanks CrosspoolClarets - the reply I was hoping for!CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:47 pmAll I can add (and I wouldn’t have just done 4 posts if I could edit ) is that the document Aggi has linked has a second document replying to Burnley et al back in May, by one of the commission, and my skim of this suggests that we can now ask the commission to move onto compensation matters but as this is commercial in confidence our club aren’t entitled to see the figures concerned.
I may be wrong but that was my interpretation of the legal speak.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Everton could have been docked 20 points and they still wouldn't have finished in the bottom 3 the 10 point deduction has been manufactured to save them from the drop and made to look like they have been punished and that's the end of that.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
We definitely should sue them.
Another thing: points deduction -10 but goal difference stays the same. Should’ve been -5 for each three points docked
Another thing: points deduction -10 but goal difference stays the same. Should’ve been -5 for each three points docked
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
This punishment would have had dire consequences for Everton last season, or the one before. The PL have decided to implement it at a time it does the least damage.
I hope Leicester and Leeds successfully sue them for last season.
I hope Leicester and Leeds successfully sue them for last season.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Essentially this was about a single charge - if you read the judgement that aggi shared you will find that 40,000 documents were produced around this hearing and 28,000 submitted for it - now imagine what Manchester City will do for the 122 charges they face - it will not be quick - and this is a club whose ownership has historically taken the stance that they would prefer to tie such cases up for years and hire Europe's top 50 law firms to assist that process. It is that attitude that has already seen many separate cases in the commercial and high court around the processes for the Premier Leagues investigations, charges and even the time frames to what can and cannot be reviewed. We should also note that some of the Premier Leagues charges relate to Manchester City's refusal to share requested documentation. It is not a small case and the potential ramifications of it are huge got the whole professional game.Superjohnnyfrancis wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:50 pmIts a joke init their just delaying the ( hopefully) inevitable.
I hope they tumble down the leagues like rangers and get all their titles taken off them, good suggestion from Stan collymore on talk sport. I agree with him.
Re: Everton docked 10 points
Leicester and us will be public enemy no one to the Scousers,blaming us for their clubs financial cheating ,hope we can finish above them and still take £100 mill compensation off them,we should also sue City for taking 6 points off us which made the difference between staying up or being relegated.
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
That is a really clear and well constructed document, decisions are clearly explained with specific items from both parties being rejected - It will be interesting to see what Everton can actually challenge in terms of an appealaggi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:19 pmFull judgement is here (I haven't read it)
https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... cation.pdf
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Re: Everton docked 10 points
Appeals are very very difficult.Chester Perry wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:31 pmThat is a really clear and well constructed document, decisions are clearly explained with specific items from both parties being rejected - It will be interesting to see what Everton can actually challenge in terms of an appeal
There will need to be something substantial in the written reasons to appeal to stand any chance of success.