Everton docked 10 points

[Boss Hogg]

The message it sends out is if you are in a relegation battle break the rules. You won’t be docked the points until a few seasons later. This won’t affect Everton. The PL is a Cesspit at times.

[DAVETHEVICAR]

The appeal is looked at by a different committee and not the one who brought this judgment
Apparently the season Burnley went down the Everton predicament had not been fully established and therefore Burnley’s case in a civil court would not stand the same chance as Leicester’s the season later.
This I believe is late production of accounts like we seem to do most years
Leicester are checking with top lawyers to see what chance they would have.
If they or Burnley put a claim in and lost I am unsure whether it would costs us money for our fees.

[agreenwood]

I thought this was quite good news, but I now realise I’d not viewed it through the UTC prism.

Clearly a relegation rival being docked 10 points should be used as a further means to express just how **** we are and get all miserable.

[Elizabeth]

In past seasons this would relegate Everton but not now

[Boss Hogg]

I thought this was quite good news, but I now realise I’d not viewed it through the UTC prism.

Clearly a relegation rival being docked 10 points should be used as a further means to express just how **** we are and get all miserable.

They are not a relegation rival.

[agreenwood]

They are not a relegation rival.

Odd. They appear to be in the bottom 3 with us. I’m not being pedantic. I’m stating a fact.

[Elizabeth]

Odd. They appear to be in the bottom 3 with us. I’m not being pedantic. I’m stating a fact.

You seem to be missing the clear indications that they are far from relegation material.

Anyway if it comforts you that they are now in the bottom 3 and are happy to ignore their form this season , you will be looking for them to be relegated I'm guessing

[Stayingup]

this will get reduced on appeal

And that would render the Premier League weak and spineless. Send out a green light to other clubs who flout the rules that they can do so with impunity. No it will stand will this.

[NewClaret]

You seem to be missing the clear indications that they are far from relegation material.

Anyway if it comforts you that they are now in the bottom 3 and are happy to ignore their form this season , you will be looking for them to be relegated I'm guessing

Everton have played:

Fulham*
Villa
Wolves*
Sheff U
Arsenal*
Brentford
Luton*
Bournemouth*
Liverpool
West Ham
Brighton*
Palace

*at home

They’ve played three of the likely top 8. We’ve played 7.

It’s absolutely ludicrous to suggest that a team, having played those fixtures and now having had 10 points deducted and level on points is somehow not a relegation rival.

[gandhisflipflop]

Woah, chill. Did you read the rest of my post, or just the first line?

I was intentionally non-absolute in my wording, because of course it could make a difference. But my point for the past few weeks we've only really been looking at being better than Bournemouth, Sheffield United and Luton to stay up. Things can change, that's true, but unless Everton suddenly have a massive slump in form and start to show relegation form (which granted is possible just like every other club in the bottom half) then the -10 points likely won't make too much of a difference to whether we stay up because they will slowly make their way back up the league table. If you'd read my post you'd also see that I mention (and hope!) that we follow them up the league and away from the relegation places, in which case the -10 points also doesn't make too much of a difference to our season.



And if this 'slag the club epidemic' comment was aimed at me you might want to read my post history. I'm typically a very positive poster on here and have remained so despite our difficult start to the season.

It wasn’t aimed at you or any one person. The people know who they are who have been doing it. It’s across the board and socials for all to see

[Swizzlestick]

They also lost to Fulham, Wolves and Luton at home. They've had a few decent results recently, but I don't buy into this 'they're comfortably safe' narrative. An injury or two to DCL or somebody like Onana and they're in the mud again. Lots of question marks over the new owners too. And don't forget a fanbase that's even more fickle than ours (though we have been challenging that recently).

[Elizabeth]

Everton have played:

Fulham*
Villa
Wolves*
Sheff U
Arsenal*
Brentford
Luton*
Bournemouth*
Liverpool
West Ham
Brighton*
Palace

*at home

They’ve played three of the likely top 8. We’ve played 7.

It’s absolutely ludicrous to suggest that a team, having played those fixtures and now having had 10 points deducted and level on points is somehow not a relegation rival.

Just as ludicrous as ignoring they are not the Everton of previous seasons. Don't let me stop you hanging on to something
I think we might still survive , the only difference is I don't think it's going to be down to Everton. That's something I think will eventually grow on you

[DCWat]

Got to love a mitigating factor being a need to sort their “non existent midfield”.

[NewClaret]

Just as ludicrous as ignoring they are not the Everton of previous seasons. Don't let me stop you hanging on to something
I think we might still survive , the only difference is I don't think it's going to be down to Everton. That's something I think will eventually grow on you

I actually think we will be relegated and Everton will survive.

That’s immaterial.

They are very much a relegation rival today because they are on the same number of points and have also played far easier games. They are the facts.

[NewClaret]

Got to love a mitigating factor being a need to sort their “non existent midfield”.

I had a good old laugh at that too.

Oh for a chairman willing to sort their “non existent” midfield

[boyyanno]

The big issue I can see is where will the line be drawn? In theory every single club that has finished below Everton from then until now will surely have suffered some form of loss of revenue as a result of them "cheating". You could make the argument that if we go down again this season it's as a result of the rebuild job we had to do etc. I just don't know where it stops. I suspect that if we do make a successful claim it would be only on the revenue we lost out for that one season, (e.g the difference in PL money against the parachute payments) otherwise its going to surely open a massive can of worms.

[daveisaclaret]

Whether Everton are a relegation rival or not (and judging by points per game so far they're on course to win 44 points which would see them finish with 34) this makes it much more likely we will finish ahead of them. Simple as.

[DCWat]

Whether Everton are a relegation rival or not (and judging by points per game so far they're on course to win 44 points which would see them finish with 34) this makes it much more likely we will finish ahead of them. Simple as.

Not if your using PPG it doesn’t.

[Marney&Mee]

No way will Everton go down

[scamander]

Whether Everton are a relegation rival or not (and judging by points per game so far they're on course to win 44 points which would see them finish with 34) this makes it much more likely we will finish ahead of them. Simple as.

Prior to the Arsenal game we were averaging 0.3 points per game and needed to be averaging 1.2 to make 37 points. Unsure how probable that is. Would be an incredible turnaround for sure.

[boyyanno]

Everton have played:

Fulham*
Villa
Wolves*
Sheff U
Arsenal*
Brentford
Luton*
Bournemouth*
Liverpool
West Ham
Brighton*
Palace

*at home

They’ve played three of the likely top 8. We’ve played 7.

It’s absolutely ludicrous to suggest that a team, having played those fixtures and now having had 10 points deducted and level on points is somehow not a relegation rival.

Everton were over 10 points infront of us. We'd literally have to take nearly maximum points from the 4 corresponding fixtures to be anywhere near them.

We have taken 4 from 12 games that included Palace, Brentford, Forest and Luton.

Please show me anything that suggests we are good enough to take 11 points from 4 games?

That's how Math works yanno, you can't just dump random info and say it means what you think it does. It literally shows how far away we are from them.

[NewClaret]

The big issue I can see is where will the line be drawn? In theory every single club that has finished below Everton from then until now will surely have suffered some form of loss of revenue as a result of them "cheating". You could make the argument that if we go down again this season it's as a result of the rebuild job we had to do etc. I just don't know where it stops. I suspect that if we do make a successful claim it would be only on the revenue we lost out for that one season, (e.g the difference in PL money against the parachute payments) otherwise its going to surely open a massive can of worms.

If my reading of the situation is right, I can only see us as having a case. The breach was in the year we were relegated, not Leicester or Leeds.

Their only argument, I assume, is that the PL should’ve bought the case sooner and the points deduction occurred then. Which is a pretty weak argument.

As for what we can claim, it will be lost revenue (tv money and commercial- that’ll be easy to prove) and other losses. So we’ll argue for example we had to sell Pope cheaply, accept Cornet’s release clause and let him go more cheaply than we’d have liked, replace Mee who’d have otherwise stayed, then rebuild the squad and in doing so pay a load of agency fees we otherwise wouldn’t, etc.

It’ll add up but some of it will be tough to argue/agree.

I imagine we’ll need to await the appeal before filing anyway. If a higher body kick it out we won’t want to incur all the fees.

Have said for a while that having the ex Everton CFO on the payroll in all of this, particularly if it gets to disclosure, will be very useful, because he will know where the skeletons are hidden.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Odd. They appear to be in the bottom 3 with us. I’m not being pedantic. I’m stating a fact.

From reading social media the proper miserable Burnley fans seem to be revelling in us still being bottom of the league whilst holding Everton up as a side who should be challenging the top 4 even though yet again they find themselves in the relegation zone.

[Wokingclaret]

Everton are miles better than us

[NewClaret]

Everton were over 10 points infront of us. We'd literally have to take nearly maximum points from the 4 corresponding fixtures to be anywhere near them.

We have taken 4 from 12 games that included Palace, Brentford, Forest and Luton.

Please show me anything that suggests we are good enough to take 11 points from 4 games?

That's how Math works yanno, you can't just dump random info and say it means what you think it does. It literally shows how far away we are from them.

Math?

The maths are simple, they’re on the same points as us right now. So they’re a relegation rival. It’s not really debatable.

I think what you’re talking about is form. They’ve won 10 more points but also played far easier opposition. The thing with this league is you don’t really ever know who was best and worst until the end of the season and everyone’s played each other home and away. Certainly not after 12 games with such disparities in the fixtures played.

FWIW I think they are far more experienced than us, have better players (today) as a result and a manager who is worldly wise and plays a system more likely to pick up points given our respective capabilities. So I’d back Everton to stay up over us despite the fact they have a tougher 26 games to play than us.

Boss Hogg said “Everton are not a relegation rival” but they unequivocally are at the moment.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Everton are miles better than us

We’ll find out in May.

[boyyanno]

Math?

The maths are simple, they’re on the same points as us right now. So they’re a relegation rival. It’s not really debatable.

I think what you’re talking about is form. They’ve won 10 more points but also played far easier opposition. The thing with this league is you don’t really ever know who was best and worst until the end of the season and everyone’s played each other home and away. Certainly not after 12 games with such disparities in the fixtures played.

FWIW I think they are far more experienced than us, have better players (today) as a result and a manager who is worldly wise and plays a system more likely to pick up points given our respective capabilities. So I’d back Everton to stay up over us despite the fact they have a tougher 26 games to play than us.

Boss Hogg said “Everton are not a relegation rival” but they unequivocally are at the moment.

This really is rubbish I'm sorry.

This is the easiest way to explain:

You've said Everton have had 4 easier fixtures than us (I can only assume that's what you mean by saying they've played less of the top teams than us)- you've used this as a reason to illustrate why you think they are a relegation rival alongside the points deduction.

The maths show that we would have to win 3 and draw 1 in the corresponding 4 fixtures to be where Everton were.

We have literally taken 4 points from 12 games that include Forest, Luton, Palace and Brentford. If you think that means we can take 11 from 4 games then fair enough but your mad as a box of frogs.

[Jamesy]

If Everton were docked 20 points they would still finish above us.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

If Everton were docked 20 points they would still finish above us.

That’s the spirit.

[Jakubclaret]

Nothing wrong with positivity built upon solid foundations, I think with some posters that part is removed away from reality with the punchy predictions that we can somehow overturn disasterous form & go toe to toe with Everton who have so far in showed midtable form & are no less than a win away from lifting themselves out of the relegation zone. I guess it's Friday night please serve me a pint up of whatever you are drinking.

[Woonderbah]

And that would render the Premier League weak and spineless. Send out a green light to other clubs who flout the rules that they can do so with impunity. No it will stand will this.

If there's an appeal then it needs to be dealt with quickly otherwise it will get very messy.
Imagine Everton being relegated by a point and an appeal then reduces the deduction by 2 points. The team that finished 4th bottom would no doubt feel very aggrieved and consult lawyers.

[NewClaret]

This really is rubbish I'm sorry.

This is the easiest way to explain:

You've said Everton have had 4 easier fixtures than us (I can only assume that's what you mean by saying they've played less of the top teams than us)- you've used this as a reason to illustrate why you think they are a relegation rival alongside the points deduction.

The maths show that we would have to win 3 and draw 1 in the corresponding 4 fixtures to be where Everton were.

We have literally taken 4 points from 12 games that include Forest, Luton, Palace and Brentford. If you think that means we can take 11 from 4 games then fair enough but your mad as a box of frogs.

I didn’t at any point say that Everton have had four easier fixtures than us. I said they had played three of the likely top eight vs our three. I didn’t mention anything about corresponding fixtures or suggest only four fixtures were in play for discussion. But I don’t think you’ll find any football fan who’d argue their opening 12 games have been harder than ours.

Your argument seems to be that because we wouldn’t have won exactly the same number of points in the four fixtures you argue I’ve said are corresponding, they’re not a relegation rival. So let’s go with that. What if we’d won half and Everton were 5 pts ahead. Would a team 5 points (less than 2 wins ahead) with 26 to play not be a relegation rival?

A different way of framing this debate is whether I think we’d be on 14 points having had Everton’s fixtures. I’d say probably not but I’d like to hope we’d have some decent points from Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Luton, Brighton at home. Maybe not 10 more than we have today but more than we got from City, United, Villa, Chelsea & Spurs at home.

So I’m short, I don’t follow you argument that we’d need to be exactly on the same points total from corresponding fixtures as Everton for them not to be considered a relegation rival. With 2/3rds of the season to go, if they were anywhere within touching distance they’d be a relegation rival. And they’re certainly in touching distance now so they’re definitively are.

[boyyanno]

I didn’t at any point say that Everton have had four easier fixtures than us. I said they had played three of the likely top eight vs our three. I didn’t mention anything about corresponding fixtures or suggest only four fixtures were in play for discussion. But I don’t think you’ll find any football fan who’d argue their opening 12 games have been harder than ours.

Your argument seems to be that because we wouldn’t have won exactly the same number of points in the four fixtures you argue I’ve said are corresponding, they’re not a relegation rival. So let’s go with that. What if we’d won half and Everton were 5 pts shreds. Would a team 5 points less than 2 wins ahead with 26 to play not be a relegation rival?

A different way of framing this debate is whether I think we’d be on 14 points having had Everton’s fixtures. I’d say probably not but I’d like to hope we’d have some decent points from Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Luton, Brighton at home. Maybe not 10 more than we have today but more than City, United, Villa, Chelsea & Spurs.

So I’m short, I don’t follow you argument that we’d need to be exactly on the same points total from corresponding fixtures as Everton for them not to be considered a relegation rival. With 2/3rds of the season to go, if they were anywhere within touching distance they’d be a relegation rival. And they’re certainly in touching distance now so they’re definitively are.

So by your logic Man City were a relagtion rival on game week one were they?

No I didn't think so, because that isn't how logic works.

Everton have had 1.17 points per game
Burnley have had 0.33

Can you show me how you think that means they are a rival of ours?

If your answer is going to be that they are currently second bottom then I'll refer you back to the Man City example.

Basic Maths show that Everton have way out performed us this season, unless you think this side is capable of picking up 11 points from the easier fixtures Everton have had then your point is absolute nonsense. And I fail to see how you can think we are capable of doing that given we have picked up 4 from 12.

But please do let me know why you think this will happen.

[aggi]

The message it sends out is if you are in a relegation battle break the rules. You won’t be docked the points until a few seasons later. This won’t affect Everton. The PL is a Cesspit at times.

It's not any different to the Football League. Plenty of clubs got promoted to the premier league and then got hit with a fine way lower than the rewards of premier league money.

[Jamesy]

That’s the spirit.

Just being realistic, not blindly optimistic.

[DCWat]

We need a fillip or two - whether or not we finish above them, it drags them back into it. Let’s take that as a positive.

[NewClaret]

So by your logic Man City were a relagtion rival on game week one were they?

No I didn't think so, because that isn't how logic works.

Everton have had 1.17 points per game
Burnley have had 0.33

Can you show me how you think that means they are a rival of ours?

If your answer is going to be that they are currently second bottom then I'll refer you back to the Man City example.

Basic Maths show that Everton have way out performed us this season, unless you think this side is capable of picking up 11 points from the easier fixtures Everton have had then your point is absolute nonsense. And I fail to see how you can think we are capable of doing that given we have picked up 4 from 12.

But please do let me know why you think this will happen.

No, quite obviously treble winners Man City were not relegation rivals after opening week. We are talking about the team that finished 16th and 17th in the last two seasons. Let’s not change the subject.

Everton have out performed us this season, yes. So far. There is two thirds of it to go and they have harder fixtures, which I assume you’re not disputing.

And today they are on equal points so are a relegation rival. That may change if we don’t get our act together but right now they are.

[bfcjg]

They've had to rename the new stadium.
It's now Bradley-Moore Docked.

[Jakubclaret]

No, quite obviously treble winners Man City were not relegation rivals after opening week. We are talking about the team that finished 16th and 17th in the last two seasons. Let’s not change the subject.

Everton have out performed us this season, yes. So far. There is two thirds of it to go and they have harder fixtures, which I assume you’re not disputing.

And today they are on equal points so are a relegation rival. That may change if we don’t get our act together but right now they are.

they have harder fixtures, which I assume you’re not disputing. & time after time the sort of games everton have thrived upon & got the points needed, it's only us who don't turn up for the big games, bournemouth got the 3 against Newcastle even luton got a draw against Liverpool & Sheffield United a credible draw away to Brighton.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

they have harder fixtures, which I assume you’re not disputing. & time after time the sort of games everton have thrived upon & got the points needed, it's only us who don't turn up for the big games, bournemouth got the 3 against Newcastle even luton got a draw against Liverpool & Sheffield United a credible draw away to Brighton.

Maybe bring this thread back up in May to prove your point or hopefully not.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Just being realistic, not blindly optimistic.

Or ridiculously pessimistic.

[boyyanno]

No, quite obviously treble winners Man City were not relegation rivals after opening week. We are talking about the team that finished 16th and 17th in the last two seasons. Let’s not change the subject.

Everton have out performed us this season, yes. So far. There is two thirds of it to go and they have harder fixtures, which I assume you’re not disputing.

And today they are on equal points so are a relegation rival. That may change if we don’t get our act together but right now they are.

I disagree that them being on equal points with us makes them a relagtion rival, the City example is obviously extreme but its valid. You can't judge a league table off 12 games, but especially when a team has just had a 10 point deduction. Just like you can't judge it on game week one, you'd predict it on how things have gone before. That's exactly what I'm doing, Everton have picked up treble our points tally, that's not just due to fixtures.

I'm happy to concede that it possibly gives one of the newly promoted clubs a golden ticket, it was the first thing I said on one of the other threads, but I certainly disagree with what you said which is that it's ludicrous to suggest they aren't a rival. I'd say it's reasonably logical to suggest a team that gets 3 times your points per game is not your rival when starting from the same kind of spot to be honest.

I mean I could dispute the fixture thing, I care more about how the team plays against you vs who they are, but I think it would be a bit irrelevant.

We could talk about how Everton beat Palace and Brentford whilst we were comfortably beaten by both, or how Luton beat Everton but we beat them, it could go on forever. So I'm happy to say on balance Everton may have slightly tougher fixtures than us, but it doesn't matter unless you can pick up points.

I honestly don't think any of the bottom three can consider anyone else a relegation rival at the moment aside from arguably Bournemouth, none of us have been good enough so far.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

So any club in any division who sits above the relegation zone aren’t relegation rivals to those below them? Was it the same the season when we had Hart in the nets and were cut adrift in December? Or the Waddle season in the 90’s!?

As someone has posted above you are talking about form.

[Jamesy]

Or ridiculously pessimistic.

Nothing ridiculous about it, just examine the statistics for the season so far. Sadly, we are destined to fail.

[Boss Hogg]

I actually think we will be relegated and Everton will survive.

That’s immaterial.

They are very much a relegation rival today because they are on the same number of points and have also played far easier games. They are the facts.

In the games I’ve watched they look superior to us all over the pitch and look far more organised. You keep burying your head in the sand. Stats show ‘facts’ but they often don’t tell the compkete story.

[NewClaret]

In the games I’ve watched they look superior to us all over the pitch and look far more organised. You keep burying your head in the sand. Stats show ‘facts’ but they often don’t tell the compkete story.

What part of me saying “I actually think we will get relegated and Everton will survive” is me burying my head in the sand?

[Nonayforever]

Can anyone change the thread title to read ;-
Are Burnley more sh*t than Everton.

[Devils_Advocate]

Harsh. No Everton fan but I do think they've been treated badly with this decision

[Jamesy]

Can anyone change the thread title to read ;-
Are Burnley more sh*t than Everton.

No, a better title would be …. We are considerably shitter than Everton. Discuss.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

No, a better title would be …. We are considerably shitter than Everton. Discuss.

Or.. I am really enjoying being considerably shitter than Everton.