Sue or not to sue

[beddie]

Yes we should sue for every penny. The bottom line is they’ve broken the rules. Let’s get in quick, if we’re successful and they’ve no brass to pay us we should seize assets, I’d start with their goalkeeper and centre half.

[Quickenthetempo]

In our first promotion to the Premier league we were placed under a transfer embargo after buying Chris Eagles but not paying for him. Eagles was a huge part of our promotion and we clearly cheated the system to get him.

Should Sheff Utd sue us for their 100m they lost out on?

Most owners are dodgy/bend the rules, opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs.

[NewClaret]

One of the key Premier League rules is you cannot take recourse in another jurisdiction - be it court or CAS.

I note that Manchester City have been fighting the Premier League in a number of different cases in the British courts but not on the charges but on various technical issues around the charges we are led to believe that when it comes to Premier League rules, there has been no forced change resulting from a judicial decision so it would appear that these rules re external recourse will hold fast

This is really useful info, thanks CP.

And really good news for us depending on your perspective.

I read that report you posted last night and whilst I didn’t understand all of it, it was clear that causation will be the next hurdle for us, that being that had they not cheated we would not have suffered the loss.

I think our arguments here will be:

1. Had the 10 point deduction taken place in the year the offences were committed, they would have been relegated by the appropriate punishment. Our argument will be strengthened by a. the scale of the punishment, b. we pushed the PL to take immediate action & reserved our rights at the time, and c. that the losses were accrued over a number of years and therefore they should have been under careful scrutiny (and taking greater care to comply with the rules) - on watch basically.

2. That the strengthening of the team enabled by their non-compliance likely caused them to score more points than us. In this sense I don’t think Moshiri’s comments that it was used to strengthen their “non-existent” midfield are very helpful to their case at all and I think that’s why that comment was explicitly referenced in the written reasons. Our argument will focus that they would have achieved a points tally lower than ours that season without a midfield.

3. To comply with the rules, they’d have presumably had to also sell some players(?) Not sure about this. But if that’s the case, we could also argue that a non-existent midfield + a weakening of the team by selling their most saleable assets would’ve resulted in them scoring even lower points.

If causation in proven our losses (or the bulk of them) are almost indisputable.

I agree with posts above though, that evertons best path could be a settlement with all clubs - and to hope they’d prefer to avoid protracted legal action. Theres potentially without prejudice conversations going on behind the scenes.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Telegraph article says 3rd party clubs have 28 days from this judgement date to inform the commission of their claims, so that this same commission can rule on it in due course.

[Stayingup]

Incidentally it's not just Leicester, Leeds and us who could try to sue Everton. There is also Notts Forsst and Southampton who have thrown their hats into the ring.

[KRBFC]

In our first promotion to the Premier league we were placed under a transfer embargo after buying Chris Eagles but not paying for him. Eagles was a huge part of our promotion and we clearly cheated the system to get him.

Should Sheff Utd sue us for their 100m they lost out on?

Most owners are dodgy/bend the rules, opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs.

Agree, I’m well over that relegation too and I don’t think we were relegated for anything other than being rubbish.

We won 1 game under Dyche from the start of the season until February. But it’s Everton’s fault?

I hate this sort of thing because ultimately it’s the fans that suffer due to ownership and things out of their control. Do we really want football owners putting football clubs at risk over petty lawsuits?

[Stayingup]

Now the Premier league has bared its teeth- as I have read today - what could happen to Manchester City who have 115 charges made against them compared to Evertons one. I suppose it depends on the seriousness of some or all of those charges. Its watch this space....

[Stayingup]

Agree, I’m well over that relegation too and I don’t think we were relegated for anything other than being rubbish.

We won 1 game under Dyche from the start of the season until February. But it’s Everton’s fault?

I hate this sort of thing because ultimately it’s the fans that suffer due to ownership and things out of their control. Do we really want football owners putting football clubs at risk over petty lawsuits?

It wouldn't be petty if a club got relegated. If your in a 'club' that has rules and penalties for breaking them you have to accept the consequences when you do

[Spijed]

Agree, I’m well over that relegation too and I don’t think we were relegated for anything other than being rubbish.

We won 1 game under Dyche from the start of the season until February. But it’s Everton’s fault?

I hate this sort of thing because ultimately it’s the fans that suffer due to ownership and things out of their control. Do we really want football owners putting football clubs at risk over petty lawsuits?

The only thing reagrding the fans is that, like in Leicester's situation & that of Man City, for example, they are happy for their own clubs to break the rules with little regard for the fairness of it all.

If they (the fans) are happy to enjoy the glory, despite it being unfairly achieved, then why should they have any sympathy?

[NewClaret]

Now the Premier league has bared its teeth- as I have read today - what could happen to Manchester City who have 115 charges made against them compared to Evertons one. I suppose it depends on the seriousness of some or all of those charges. Its watch this space....

Im not really sure why everyone is surprised at the prospect that City & Chelsea might get consigned to the Championship.

Italy relegated Juve (two leagues?) and Scotland relegated Rangers. Definitely precedents there.

Plus they deserve it. Fully.

[NewClaret]

Agree, I’m well over that relegation too and I don’t think we were relegated for anything other than being rubbish.

We won 1 game under Dyche from the start of the season until February. But it’s Everton’s fault?

I hate this sort of thing because ultimately it’s the fans that suffer due to ownership and things out of their control. Do we really want football owners putting football clubs at risk over petty lawsuits?

I agree with you. But…

If the Premier League don’t want all this suing then they need to deal with complaints expediently. We complained and asked them to resolve it in good time before the start of the following season. They didn’t, so it’s going to flow over.

God knows how they’d deal with the City/Chelsea debacle.

If after all this compensation is awarded, they’ll need to change the rules to align to more real-time punishments.

[dougcollins]

Im not really sure why everyone is surprised at the prospect that City & Chelsea might get consigned to the Championship.

Italy relegated Juve (two leagues?) and Scotland relegated Rangers. Definitely precedents there.

Plus they deserve it. Fully.

Is it not the case that the EFL can refuse to accept them?

[Stayingup]

Agree, I’m well over that relegation too and I don’t think we were relegated for anything other than being rubbish.

We won 1 game under Dyche from the start of the season until February. But it’s Everton’s fault?

I hate this sort of thing because ultimately it’s the fans that suffer due to ownership and things out of their control. Do we really want football owners putting football clubs at risk over petty lawsuits?

I thought we were unlucky to be relegated. This rubbish comment doesn't sit well with me at all. Other clubs outside the elite had invested. We didn't. Still we beat Brentford 4-0. There were mitigating circumstances. Wood left. Mee got injured and Dyche was afforded the luxury of Stephens from Brighton for half a million. The die was cast when we didn't beat Brighton and Leeds at home early in the season.

[NewClaret]

Is it not the case that the EFL can refuse to accept them?

I don’t know, but I very much doubt they’d do that.

They must be licking their lips at the prospect of a couple of Prem giants being relegated.

I just hope we don’t go down with them because getting up again in one season would be near impossible.

[DAVETHEVICAR]

City and Chelsea won’t go down this season as apparently it will take at least 2 years to go through all the hundreds of documents at the commission’s hands.
United Spurs and others could be also be involved
I firmly believe these clubs will get away without punishment apart from fines and transfer embargo’s and possibly points deduction at start of the following season
Premier League won’t want to lose these big clubs because they get the biggest TV audiences throughout the World.
Big money means everything

[KRBFC]

I thought we were unlucky to be relegated. This rubbish comment doesn't sit well with me at all. Other clubs outside the elite had invested. We didn't. Still we beat Brentford 4-0. There were mitigating circumstances. Wood left. Mee got injured and Dyche was afforded the luxury of Stephens from Brighton for half a million. The die was cast when we didn't beat Brighton and Leeds at home early in the season.

We were absolutely rubbish under Dyche, 1 win from the start until February is the reason we got relegated. Then when we got a couple of wins we followed it up with that Norwich away stinker.

[RVclaret]

I thought we were unlucky to be relegated. This rubbish comment doesn't sit well with me at all. Other clubs outside the elite had invested. We didn't. Still we beat Brentford 4-0. There were mitigating circumstances. Wood left. Mee got injured and Dyche was afforded the luxury of Stephens from Brighton for half a million. The die was cast when we didn't beat Brighton and Leeds at home early in the season.

You are thinking the previous season re. Stephens.

The season being talked about he had the largest wage bill in the clubs history (92m) and spent 45m in the 2 windows.

[KRBFC]

The only thing reagrding the fans is that, like in Leicester's situation & that of Man City, for example, they are happy for their own clubs to break the rules with little regard for the fairness of it all.

If they (the fans) are happy to enjoy the glory, despite it being unfairly achieved, then why should they have any sympathy?

Because you’re tarring them all with the same brush. Most Everton fans wanted the ownership gone because they spent money poorly?

All football fans want their club to invest more to be better that doesn’t mean we are responsible if our owner decides to break the rules nor does it mean that’s what we wanted.

[Rileybobs]

The question isn’t how rubbish were we or whether we deserved to go down, it is what financial damage the club faced as a result of Everton breaking the rules.

[Dark Cloud]

In our first promotion to the Premier league we were placed under a transfer embargo after buying Chris Eagles but not paying for him. Eagles was a huge part of our promotion and we clearly cheated the system to get him.

Should Sheff Utd sue us for their 100m they lost out on?

Most owners are dodgy/bend the rules, opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs.

"Opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs".
Well if it does, so be it. The answer is simple. Stick within the rules. It might just actually reign in some of the more ridiculous excesses of the PL and football in general and make a (slightly) more level playing field in the process. Bring it on imo.

[dougcollins]

I don’t know, but I very much doubt they’d do that.

They must be licking their lips at the prospect of a couple of Prem giants being relegated.

I just hope we don’t go down with them because getting up again in one season would be near impossible.

Don't know.

They may not appreciate their competition being turned into an F1 style procession.

[Quickenthetempo]

"Opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs".
Well if it does, so be it. The answer is simple. Stick within the rules. It might just actually reign in some of the more ridiculous excesses of the PL and football in general and make a (slightly) more level playing field in the process. Bring it on imo.

I'm all for points deductions for anyone cheating, just not everyone suing each other.

[KRBFC]

I thought we were unlucky to be relegated. This rubbish comment doesn't sit well with me at all. Other clubs outside the elite had invested. We didn't. Still we beat Brentford 4-0. There were mitigating circumstances. Wood left. Mee got injured and Dyche was afforded the luxury of Stephens from Brighton for half a million. The die was cast when we didn't beat Brighton and Leeds at home early in the season.

Also we signed Cornet Roberts Weghorst Collins that year

[Darnhill Claret]

Surely, only the team finishing 18th should have a justifiable claim?

[Jakubclaret]

Surely, only the team finishing 18th should have a justifiable claim?

You get paid accordingly to where you finish in the league standings so really in theory you could say that every team that experienced negative results against Everton were affected.
Obviously the bigger beef lies with the relegated clubs as the consequences financially are more severe but in some shape or form all teams suffered the 1s that didn't do the double over Everton.

[KRBFC]

The question isn’t how rubbish were we or whether we deserved to go down, it is what financial damage the club faced as a result of Everton breaking the rules.

But how do you answer that question?

Did Everton breaking the rules make them a better team that year? Well that’s impossible to answer


If we’re saying Everton breaking the rules made them a better team then that means they took points from teams they wouldn’t have if they didn’t break the rules, so all teams who didn’t take 6 points can sue them?

does that mean we start adding points on for team who Everton didn’t lose to?

I believe we lost 3-1 at Everton and beat them at home. what scores are we now going with?

I’d rather focus on the fact we won 1 game from the start of the the season until February and we deserved relegation for being rubbish, no excuses or laying hypothetical blame elsewhere.

[KRBFC]

"Opening this can of worms could kill a lot of clubs".
Well if it does, so be it. The answer is simple. Stick within the rules. It might just actually reign in some of the more ridiculous excesses of the PL and football in general and make a (slightly) more level playing field in the process. Bring it on imo.

Yes bring on the killing of clubs, who cares about the local communities who adore those clubs. Let’s just starting dissolving them because an owner decided to break the rules. Who cares if the fans had absolutely no say or power to stop the rule break, let’s punish the fans.

Seriously wake up, we have overspent and bent rules in the past, we got away with it in 2009 with the miraculous promotion.

I hate Blackburn Rovers with every bone in my body but no football fan deserves their club dissolving because of a rule breaking owner.

[Jakubclaret]

All Everton's positive results including draws should be voided & awarded to the other team & calculate what the league would look like & compensate accordingly going off that. It's the only fair way of doing it.

[yTib]

Yes bring on the killing of clubs, who cares about the local communities who adore those clubs. Let’s just starting dissolving them because an owner decided to break the rules. Who cares if the fans had absolutely no say or power to stop the rule break, let’s punish the fans.

Seriously wake up, we have overspent and bent rules in the past, we got away with it in 2009 with the miraculous promotion.

I hate Blackburn Rovers with every bone in my body but no football fan deserves their club dissolving because of a rule breaking owner.

you have bones in your body? i always imagined you as some sort of blob.

[daveisaclaret]

Did Everton breaking the rules make them a better team that year?

Yes

[Jakubclaret]

Yes

If that's the case let the maths do the talking. Wins should be awarded in reverse & draws should be given the benefit of the doubt.

[yTib]

football has been corrupt for years.

singling out everton because they, like us, are middling seems like sour grapes.

if you don't like it don't watch.

the people who subscribe to the likes of sky are the ones to blame.

[Rileybobs]

But how do you answer that question?

Did Everton breaking the rules make them a better team that year? Well that’s impossible to answer


If we’re saying Everton breaking the rules made them a better team then that means they took points from teams they wouldn’t have if they didn’t break the rules, so all teams who didn’t take 6 points can sue them?

does that mean we start adding points on for team who Everton didn’t lose to?

I believe we lost 3-1 at Everton and beat them at home. what scores are we now going with?

I’d rather focus on the fact we won 1 game from the start of the the season until February and we deserved relegation for being rubbish, no excuses or laying hypothetical blame elsewhere.

Well obviously Everton spending money that they weren’t allowed to spend gave them an advantage. This isn’t anything to do with excuses or laying hypothetical blame. If Burnley FC, as a business, believe that they have been financially damaged by Everton’s flaunting of the rules then they should pursue all avenues to be compensated accordingly.

[Jakubclaret]

football has been corrupt for years.

singling out everton because they, like us, are middling seems like sour grapes.

if you don't like it don't watch.

the people who subscribe to the likes of sky are the ones to blame.

Anybody who monotises the sport in general even including somebody who pays for a TV licence fall into that category, people all sh1t in the same sewer the money gets filtered down in varying degrees.

[Rileybobs]

football has been corrupt for years.

singling out everton because they, like us, are middling seems like sour grapes.

if you don't like it don't watch.

the people who subscribe to the likes of sky are the ones to blame.

As a Sky subscriber my thoughts on your view are obviously biased, but suggesting that people who subscribe to a tv broadcaster to watch football are complicit in corruption in football is just senseless.

[claret59]

I am not too sure about Leicester's position in this. Didn't they renege on their creditors when they were digging themselves out of a financial hole of their own making? Not much fuss made of their financial failings yet it left debtors in difficulties and Leicester got a new stadium out out it. People in glass houses and all that. If the info-above is correct then Burnley can't complain if they did much the same thing, on a smaller scale perhaps, over the Chris Eagles transfer.

[Jakubclaret]

As a Sky subscriber my thoughts on your view are obviously biased, but suggesting that people who subscribe to a tv broadcaster to watch football are complicit in corruption in football is just senseless.

You are complicit but the thing is you are far from alone everybody is. It's a corrupt sport generally speaking & 1 way or another we all contribute to that knowing that but we all have our own reasons for doing so.

[yTib]

As a Sky subscriber my thoughts on your view are obviously biased, but suggesting that people who subscribe to a tv broadcaster to watch football are complicit in corruption in football is just senseless.

no it isn't.

the correlation between televised football and money is obvious.

you don't want to see it because you are complicit.

[Rileybobs]

no it isn't.

the correlation between televised football and money is obvious.

you don't want to see it because you are complicit.

Complicit in the same way as anyone who goes to matches, buys merchandise or follows a club’s account on social media. Like I say, senseless.

[martin_p]

But how do you answer that question?

Did Everton breaking the rules make them a better team that year? Well that’s impossible to answer


If we’re saying Everton breaking the rules made them a better team then that means they took points from teams they wouldn’t have if they didn’t break the rules, so all teams who didn’t take 6 points can sue them?

does that mean we start adding points on for team who Everton didn’t lose to?

I believe we lost 3-1 at Everton and beat them at home. what scores are we now going with?

I’d rather focus on the fact we won 1 game from the start of the the season until February and we deserved relegation for being rubbish, no excuses or laying hypothetical blame elsewhere.

Simply put Everton have been deducted ten points for breaking FFP rules for the period ending 21/22. If that penalty had been applied at the end of 21/22 we wouldn’t have been relegated no matter how rubbish we were.

[martin_p]

football has been corrupt for years.

singling out everton because they, like us, are middling seems like sour grapes.

if you don't like it don't watch.

the people who subscribe to the likes of sky are the ones to blame.

If football was only spending the money it got from the tv companies then none of them would be on FFP charges.

[Jakubclaret]

Simply put Everton have been deducted ten points for breaking FFP rules for the period ending 21/22. If that penalty had been applied at the end of 21/22 we wouldn’t have been relegated no matter how rubbish we were.

But the investigative findings hadn’t been concluded then you can’t retrospectively go back & apply that penalty.

[Westleigh]

If that's the case let the maths do the talking. Wins should be awarded in reverse & draws should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Could do like they did many years ago when Aldershot when bust ,expunge all the points that teams gained against Everton and that would be how the table finished ,however that’s also flawed because if say for example Burnley had beaten Everton the next to last game of the season,they might have been on the beach for the last game and lost it but if they needed to win the last game things might have been different.

[Jakubclaret]

Could do like they did many years ago when Aldershot when bust ,expunge all the points that teams gained against Everton and that would be how the table finished ,however that’s also flawed because if say for example Burnley had beaten Everton the next to last game of the season,they might have been on the beach for the last game and lost it but if they needed to win the last game things might have been different.

It was a suggestion based on a frozen current state, of course in the fluid football world a lot has happened since with other clubs getting relegated & promoted, in an ideal world you'd reinstate everybody back to where they was in that particular season but you can't. It was a way of working out how compensation only could be paid only with assessing how the table would look voiding Everton's positive results. If my memory serves me correct it wouldn't have made a difference to us with the win at the turf & they's back at goodison probably leaving the question when would it be practical enforcing the penalty in a fair & reasonable way.

[evensteadiereddie]

But the investigative findings hadn’t been concluded then you can’t retrospectively go back & apply that penalty.

To go back retrospectively actually means to go forward....
Just saying.

[Jakubclaret]

To go back retrospectively actually means to go forward....
Just saying.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... spectively

[Jakubclaret]

To go back retrospectively actually means to go forward....
Just saying.

Wakey wakey

[Stayingup]

Simply put Everton have been deducted ten points for breaking FFP rules for the period ending 21/22. If that penalty had been applied at the end of 21/22 we wouldn’t have been relegated no matter how rubbish we were.

True what you mention there but these investigations take time Everton though had only one charge against them. Manchester City have 115. The world might have ended before a conclusion is reached on that case.

[KRBFC]

Well obviously Everton spending money that they weren’t allowed to spend gave them an advantage. This isn’t anything to do with excuses or laying hypothetical blame. If Burnley FC, as a business, believe that they have been financially damaged by Everton’s flaunting of the rules then they should pursue all avenues to be compensated accordingly.

I understand the reasoning just not a fan of owners using clubs to sue other clubs where the fans suffer because of the owners decisions.

[Rileybobs]

I understand the reasoning just not a fan of owners using clubs to sue other clubs where the fans suffer because of the owners decisions.

Well you could argue that fans of clubs that were disadvantaged by Everton’s rule flaunting have suffered. BFC for example are in a weaker position following our relegation from the PL. I’m not sure where Everton’s fans factor into our club’s decision of whether to pursue legal action.