Substitutions ?!?!?!?

Blatherwickstattoo · Post by **Blatherwickstattoo** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:30 pm

Baffling yet again. Playing against One of the tallest teams in the league that are going to launch crosses into the box for the last 5mins and he brings on Cullen who’s 5 foot 5 and Ramsey who’s 8 stone and built like a 16 year old.

Not to mention bringing off two of our most dangerous players that completely destroyed our set up after they went off.

West Ham were crap.

We are woeful.

Kompany has to take the blame for this defeat.

ceborame · Post by **ceborame** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:37 pm

Totally agree

Koleosho and Amdouni were running em ragged, their defence was scared to death of em

Boss Hogg · Post by **Boss Hogg** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:38 pm

Pointless subs we said this when they came on. Interrupted the flow of the game. Amdouni was showing some nice touches and playing well but Ramsey offered f all as expected. The Cullen one was just a head scratcher.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:43 pm

Amdouni sub was baffling given how well he was playing 2nd half.

Westleigh · Post by **Westleigh** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:43 pm

Blatherwickstattoo wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:30 pm
Baffling yet again. Playing against One of the tallest teams in the league that are going to launch crosses into the box for the last 5mins and he brings on Cullen who’s 5 foot 5 and Ramsey who’s 8 stone and built like a 16 year old.

Not to mention bringing off two of our most dangerous players that completely destroyed our set up after they went off.

West Ham were crap.

We are woeful.

Kompany has to take the blame for this defeat.

100% agree ,they were frightened to death of Koleoshoe so VK takes him off and their right hand side brings two goals.

Belial · Post by **Belial** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:45 pm

In theory Zaroury should have also been able to cause problems similar to Koleosho, it just didn't really happen

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:45 pm

Crazy. Gave West Ham the initiative.

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:46 pm

The substitutions changed the game alright.
West Ham had to make them because they weren't in the game.
I didn't think we needed to make any.....we were doing OK as we were.

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:46 pm

Absolutely woeful manager.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:48 pm

Cirrus_Minor wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:45 pm
Crazy. Gave West Ham the initiative.

I think that's undeniable and sums it up.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:49 pm

ksrclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:46 pm
Absolutely woeful manager.

pretty sure you were in the ‘Kompany is a genius’ and ‘best football I’ve ever seen at Burnley’ camp last season

clansman · Post by **clansman** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:50 pm

Baffling substations that handed the game to a really poor West Ham side. Vincent doesn’t do himself any favours. Real problem though is the squad. Totally unbalanced . The worst transfer window ever in terms of value for money and what was actually needed. Can’t fault the players effort today but why tinker when no one was injured and we were winning!!

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:50 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:49 pm
pretty sure you were in the ‘Kompany is a genius’ and ‘best football I’ve ever seen at Burnley’ camp last season

woeful manager

gawthorpe_view · Post by **gawthorpe_view** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:53 pm

...Cost us 3 points.

Safron · Post by **Safron** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:53 pm

Poor subs, the only one I would have made was jay for barnes!

DXS · Post by **DXS** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:53 pm

Agree about Koleosho and Amdouni should of left them on, but if your going to make a sub why bring Cullen on and not Ekdal, it was obvious we were going to be put under pressure with balls into box get some more height in there

Blatherwickstattoo · Post by **Blatherwickstattoo** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:57 pm

DXS wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:53 pm
Agree about Koleosho and Amdouni should of left them on, but if your going to make a sub why bring Cullen on and not Ekdal, it was obvious we were going to be put under pressure with balls into box get some more height in there

Exactly . Bizarre

expoultryboy · Post by **expoultryboy** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:57 pm

After 75 minutes i really thought we'd finally cracked it and had a good chance of even breaking away and get a second one . THEN he takes our biggest threats off , jbg who was having a decent game and switches Brownhill to the right for a midget . Baffling

clansman · Post by **clansman** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:22 pm

Agree about Ekdal if it was about game management and shoring up then Ekdal should have been on. I do think we just didn’t need to change!!

WazzaClaret · Post by **WazzaClaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:27 pm

ksrclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:46 pm
Absolutely woeful manager.

He's naive but he's shown already he's far from a bad manager. Showed signs of arrogance, yes. I expect him to learn and he won't make the same mistake twice, that's for sure!

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:31 pm

One has to wonder why Ekdal was on the bench if he was going to bring Cullen on with 10 minutes to go. It was one of the most baffling decisions I have ever seen, and whilst it is impossible to say that it lost us the game, the fact is that we did, and we would have had a much better chance of closing out the game with Ekdal.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:32 pm

Because we have too many similar players that he has to keep happy somehow and no ratters in cm or dominant defenders.

Tackler49 · Post by **Tackler49** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:37 pm

I agree with all the comments about substitutions why didn’t Ekdal come on,why does VK continue with Ramsey and why take off Koleosho and Amdouni all in all his substitutions were strange and a lift to West Ham he says the players have to get used to the life in the premier league surely that also applies to VK as a manager because it’s not just the players making mistakes

Bowclaret · Post by **Bowclaret** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:38 pm

Gutted ! Yep, Kompany lost us that one and I’m a massive fan of his. Brink Ekdal on and see it out. Cullen was simply not the right player to bring on when we are defending a lead.

It’s coming but even I am losing faith after today.

Get Muric back in now also get Ekdal back in and get Foster better ASAP.

Somehow though, I still think we will stay up.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:00 pm

Koleosho and Amdouni were superb today, but they were clearly tiring, so subbing them wasn't really a surprise. The problem came (imo) when with 15 minutes or so left and WH were chasing the game at 1-0 down, things opened up and we definitely had opportunities to break away and make it 2-0 and safe , but we didn't take them sadly.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:39 pm

For the 2nd goal if Ekdal is where Cullen is - just ahead of Soucek - he heads it clear, or over the bar.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:54 pm

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:00 pm
Koleosho and Amdouni were superb today, but they were clearly tiring, so subbing them wasn't really a surprise. The problem came (imo) when with 15 minutes or so left and WH were chasing the game at 1-0 down, things opened up and we definitely had opportunities to break away and make it 2-0 and safe , but we didn't take them sadly.

Things were really opening up in the last 20 minutes, and we turned down numerous opportunities to take a risk, play forward and kill the game off, only to slow the game down and go backwards. This team doesn’t have a clean sheet in them so it was a big mistake to think we could win it with just the one goal.

Despite looking comfortable at 1-0 the equaliser wasn’t a surprise at all, and by the time the winner went in it all just felt inevitable.

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:04 am

Bayern Munich did not make a substitution in their 1-0 win at Cologne on Friday night. The Manager had to counter claims of a 'lack of respect' to the opposition

I wish Vincent had done the same today with a 'lack of respect' for West Ham

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:07 am

It all feels a bit ‘captain hindsight’, because I’m sure had Kompany made no changes and we lost he would be receiving equal criticism. And I hate to hark back to Dyche, but today was one of those games where he wouldn’t have made a substitution. I think every player was having a good game, they were all up to speed and knew their role.

I can understand the Koleosho change, as he was tiring and this was obvious from the foul he made just before being subbed. But you have to ask why our players are tired after 80 minutes. They should all, regardless of age, be capable of doing their job for 95-100 minutes. But to shift Brownhill to the right to accommodate Cullen, considering we were at least matching West Ham in midfield, was just odd. Cullen didn’t get up to the speed of the game and uncharacteristically spooned a couple of passes into touch.

Would this have changed the outcome? Who knows. But JBG was having a fine game and we had less control of proceedings after his departure.

More naivety from Vinny, and his substitutions often feel more like a stab in the dark and done for the sake of it than with any real rationale.

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:10 am

Bayern's Manager Tuchel did not want to upset the rhythmn of his team. Unfortunately Vincent succeeded in doing so.....

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:22 am

ksrclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:46 pm
Absolutely woeful manager.

I bet you didn't say that this time last year

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:25 am

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:00 pm
Koleosho and Amdouni were superb today, but they were clearly tiring, so subbing them wasn't really a surprise. The problem came (imo) when with 15 minutes or so left and WH were chasing the game at 1-0 down, things opened up and we definitely had opportunities to break away and make it 2-0 and safe , but we didn't take them sadly.

Fair point, but why are they tiring?

ksrclaret · Post by **ksrclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:29 am

chipbutty wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:22 am
I bet you didn't say that this time last year

I was probably asleep this time last year mate.

I can ask the missus whether I said it in my sleep.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:37 am

Just had a read of this thread because it is more sensible than the others.

Tend to agree but also agree that no subs would have led to him being hammered by fans too.

So the solution was clear - Ekdal on for either Vitinho or Koleosho (the latter moving to four across the middle and five across the back).

We also missed a Tresor or Odobert for the emergency last few minutes - so the bench was strangely unbalanced. I also felt it should have had Messengo on the bench, more ideal for defending a lead by adding one to midfield.

Who knows? But the Cullen one against the height and power of West Ham was odd.

The real flaw though was quality - O’Shea should have defended the first, and we should have had a proper defender at the back box for Soucek. That is coaching following a corner for where players should be when the ball comes back in a second time. It reminded me of Everton with that overload at the back post we were all freezeframing.

So whichever way we look at it the problems were with the coaches. Particularly the defensive coach. If that is Jackson I am sensing he may be needing a new role with a new specialist PL defensive coach in. Wasn’t Mike with the U21s under Dyche? That isn’t a lot of experience coaching a defence at this level, it is more strategic than the Championship.

Cheshireclaret · Post by **Cheshireclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:45 am

One of the ways I always look at substitutions is ‘if the opposition manager was able to take off two or three of our players and bring on certain replacements, what would they do?’

I’m absolutely certain that Moyes would have taken Amdouni and Koleosho off and whilst he might not have preferred to bring Ramsey on, Cullen would have been his choice to replace Koleosho.

When I look at it like that, we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:26 am

Cheshireclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:45 am

I’m absolutely certain that Moyes would have taken Amdouni and Koleosho off and whilst he might not have preferred to bring Ramsey on, Cullen would have been his choice to replace Koleosho.

Surely Larsen was the obvious replacement for Koleosho when we were looking to kill the game off on the break?
With us a goal up, bringing Cullen was one of the least obvious changes. We needed some pace up front to hit them on the break, and some strength and power at the back to defend crosses and long balls. Unfortunately he has neither of these

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:39 am

ksrclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:29 am
I was probably asleep this time last year mate.

I can ask the missus whether I said it in my sleep.

Are you a politician?

Nori1958 · Post by **Nori1958** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:48 am

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:38 pm
Pointless subs we said this when they came on. Interrupted the flow of the game. Amdouni was showing some nice touches and playing well but Ramsey offered f all as expected. The Cullen one was just a head scratcher.

I agree the substitutions were strange, but the really baffling thing is that you thought Ramsey did f all

Burnley87 · Post by **Burnley87** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:53 am

Bringing on Anass was strange to say the least he defensively wayward. If Koleosho had to go off for whatever reason surely bringing an experienced player like redmond would be the better option to help protect the fullbacks.

As soon as we brought Cullen on i said this is a bad decision. We dominated the midfield all game, there was no real need to change it at that stage

GetIntoEm · Post by **GetIntoEm** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:28 am

Koleosho was absolutely blowing out of his of his arse and hadn't contributed anything for minutes. Not sure on amdouni tho, but Ramsey looked fresh

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:37 am

Don’t have any particular issue with the first 2 changes
Ramsay did well enough when he came on, maybe Jacob instead of Anass

The puzzling one was the Cullen one which backfired immediately.
Brownhill & Berge had control of that midfield and that change took us out of shape

alwaysaclaret · Post by **alwaysaclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:09 am

wilks_bfc wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:37 am
Don’t have any particular issue with the first 2 changes
Ramsay did well enough when he came on, maybe Jacob instead of Anass

The puzzling one was the Cullen one which backfired immediately.
Brownhill & Berge had control of that midfield and that change took us out of shape

Ramsey probably aside from the utd game had he's best time in a Burnley shirt when he came on, but if you notice he's knee was still strapped up, it's been like that since his first game, don't get why vk persists in playing him when he's clearly not fit and furthermore like 3 or 4 others not ready for this league. Also don't get why vk persists in having larsen on the bench if he's no intentions of playing him, every time he's worn the shirt he's been excellent. And absolutely agree why on earth would anyone bring Cullen on when it was working, it just totally upset the applecart and as you say shape, and said to West ham let's go for it, we were immediately under pressure. But we should never have taken our 2 main threats off in the first place, West ham just pushed forward from then on, the writing was on the wall. If there should have been a change it was maybe gudmundson for Ekdal to shore the defence up. Vk way out of he's depth imo.

mybloodisclaret · Post by **mybloodisclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:54 am

I'm well behind the manager and he still has loads of credit in the bank, but those changes were absolutely crazy and cost us 3 massive points.

With each change we went worse.

Koleosho looked tired. Nothing wrong putting Anass in there, but the others are mind blowing for me.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:02 am

5 minutes to go and your winning, what could be your first points at home. You do all you can to protect your lead. Ekdal shoukd have come on.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:11 am

I can't remember witnessing 3 worse tactical decisions in a single game before. Every one of them showed a naivety that is frankly unacceptable at this level. I thought O'Shea, Beyer, Berge and Brownhill were doing well as the four in front of Trafford. West Ham weren't really in the game and didn't look like causing us problems. It was imperative to leave them alone.

I can understand replacing Amdouni, Koleosho and JBG in favour of fresh legs but the substitutions should have been very different. We needed experience on the pitch to see the game out. If the aim was to go defensive then bring on players who can help keep it tight. Redmond and JBL were the obvious choices for Amdouni and Koleosho. The Cullen one was absolutely baffling and handed the game to West Ham. I bet Moyes couldn't believe what Kompany was doing as I certainly couldn't.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 am

Terrible substitutions and not saying it with the benefit of hindsight. Hard to comprehend what Kompany was thinking.

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:18 am

Stayingup wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:02 am
5 minutes to go and your winning, what could be your first points at home. You do all you can to protect your lead. Ekdal shoukd have come on.

Whats strange is that he has brought on an extra CH in similar positions when we were leading v Luton, and also when we were leading v Forest in the League Cup. I seriously think this pressure is clouding his judgement and decision making and fear he is either getting very little feedback from Bellamy and Jackson, or he chooses to ignore them. Yesterdays protection of our lead was a pivotal part of this season

alwaysaclaret · Post by **alwaysaclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 12:50 pm

taio wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 am
Terrible substitutions and not saying it with the benefit of hindsight. Hard to comprehend what Kompany was thinking.

Absolute and utter naivety, it's fast becoming obvious that vk is way out of he's depth at this level, fully get he's a young manager and supposedly learning he's trade, but on yesterday's evidence he's learning the square root of nothing. Even the rookie managers of non league could see what was needed yesterday, yet kompany couldn't see any further than the end of he's bl**dy nose, worse than amateurish, the more I think the worse it gets. Yes, there was mistakes from the players for the goals but I feel so sorry for them, because their manager put them under that pressure.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 1:02 pm

taio wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:14 am
Terrible substitutions and not saying it with the benefit of hindsight. Hard to comprehend what Kompany was thinking.

I think that that is what has upset even Kompany's staunchest supporters (of which I am one).
There's no hindsight here. Just about everyone on here and around us at the time, was gobsmacked when he brought Cullen on when we were likely to be under siege.
I'm guessing he kept Jayrod on because of his height to defend crosses, (when he had the option of a rapid Obafemi for the last 10 minutes), but if his logic was sound there, then the Cullen switch was even more baffling.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 1:24 pm

When it comes to player substitutions and game management Vincent Kompany has a team of people around him assessing the situation looking at data and offering some input. Either they are all completely clueless or Kompany is too stubborn and simply sticks with his own philosophy and decision making. A run of 7 home defeats perhaps suggests a change is needed.