What's the point of this season?

[Rileybobs]

Must admit, as impressive as VK came across in Mission to Burnley, it was quite frightening how much the board of directors appeared to be hanging on his every word about the business side of things.

[ervi34]

The "we got promoted too early and that's why we are not performing" narrative would make sense if we didn't spent 100 million after achieving promotion. If we got up, bought 3-4 players like we used to before and performed like we are now I would still be disappointed but would have a lot more understanding.

The only thing I'm fed up with more is "we can write this season off to get experience and try to win the Championship next season". That's called yo-yoing and it's not sustainable in the long run. A lot can happen in the meantime - poor transfer window, slow start to the season, wrong manager appointment and suddenly you are not fighting to bounce back immediately. Just look what happened to Norwich.

Investing in future also doesn't make much sense if we go straight down. Pretty much every player who performs will be moved on. There might be a chance we keep a good player or two (like we kept Brownhill), but we will probably need to get rid of high earners like we had to last time we were relegated.

[getbennyon]

Nothing beats seeing world class players down at the Turf - some of the famous scalpels we’ve had coming off Old Trafford with a 2-0 win gives a far better high than beating your Rotherham types, at least for me anyway.

Burnley winning trumps everything

[CoolClaret]

Other than getting one because other clubs have, what exactly would he/she do to improve things?

If we are to continue in the direction that I presume that the owners want to then I think it’s the smart option…

Football has massively evolved, especially over the last decade.

With the data availability, the complexity of recruitment and long-term planning has skyrocketed and is a lot more
Involved than it was of yester year - the recruitment/coaching/tactics has massively increased in complexity than it once was and so the traditional ‘manager role’ is being phased out of the game at the upper echelons of the game.

I’m firmly of the belief that we shouldn’t have so much tied up with the manager to the degree that we do right now because if they’re deemed to not be operating at the level that we require, then to move on massively impacts the entire footballing operation.

DoF basically means the manager's responsibilities are more concentrated on the field - I don’t want a guy that works 60+ hours a week, martyrs himself and then makes daft decisions come game day and massively overthinks it.

Just my opinion.

Sporting director/Dof whatever you want to call it. Also not suggesting to chuck any old name there.

Would have to be a long considered option, I’m not suggesting it as some sort of ‘quick fix get him in and we’re now laughing’, sort of thing.

[Spiral]

Must admit, as impressive as VK came across in Mission to Burnley, it was quite frightening how much the board of directors appeared to be hanging on his every word about the business side of things.

Could well be that he was hired precisely because his overarching views on how a football club should or could be run align with the directors' intended approach. Football clubs are sometimes fragmented things where there's a tug of war between board and manager/coach, and I've always wondered why so many clubs seem from the outside not to bother thinking deeply about how the business model and the actual sporting model can be aligned.

You've got managers like Redknapp and Warnock and Allardyce - useful as they are - who make dealings and implement coaching styles that are about immediate results, but then it falls on it's arse and there's no value in the squad, so the next guy is left trying to tidy up the rubble, but then he gets sacked and the next guy gets his dustpan out, then he gets sacked as well, and it all comes from the fact that there's no apparent awareness of the bond between the sporting model and the economic model of a club. It's as though there's a blind spot, and clubs only see the next string of results.

I look at Koleosho. He's basically a winning streak on a fruit machine. Didn't expect a lot from him, but then the streak starts from a small stake and you're just spinning and spinning and spinning to see how far you can take the streak. Perhaps JBL offers more experience, perhaps Zaroury is being underused. But you can't not play Koleosho because that's the next treasure chest right there. In a sense it is possible immediate results are being sacrificed because the business model of the club requires that we fatten up the cash cow so to speak, but without the cash cow we stagnate then regress, so there's a balancing act happening I think.

The rewards both on the field and off it for these Lucas and Zekis and Beyers and Fosters bonding into an actual functioning team whose productivity on the pitch is consistent and practically guaranteed every game team is absolutely fking enormous, and the strategy to achieve it has its root in a very deliberate welding of the sporting model (including play style and squad profile) to the economic model of the club.

Once it clicked last season, it was quite remarkable how unbelievably consistent not only our results were, but the performances as well. Aside from the odd flat performance, we'd go into every game virtually guaranteed to dominate. I see us as making a similar but obviously more intense adjustment, but I cannot help but notice that we've gone from having a good 15 minutes in a game, to having a good half hour, to a good half, to a good 80 minutes yesterday. There's a noticeable trajectory here. We've gone from being torn through to being able to endure, to being let down by individual error, to being let down by inexperience, but there are roots emerging that we might actually be able to have our cake and eat it; that this team built to generate economic value might also be able to compete consistently.

I dunno, I've just got this funny feeling that the periods where we look good in games age gonna get longer and more consistent, and we'll eventually work out how to win, then in the second half of the season we start finding results. I don't think it's not wishful thinking, I reckon we just need to stay on track.

[Spiral]

Sorry, I mean to say "I don't think it's wishful thinking..." just to clear up any confusion

[It Is What It Is]

as with everything in life, there is always a point. If you can't see it try looking just a little harder. I'll repeat what I've said on another thread, our little town team is currently the 20th best in the entire country, nothing pointless about this season at all.

We were 17th best with 15 mins to go.

We are still a club that massively overachieves with limited resources.
Just a big learning and experience season this one, but just keep the ball for the last 10 mins when winning, boring back and side passes would have got us the 3 points.

[ClaretAndJew]

This season is about putting our assets in the shop window to sell, nothing more than that.

[taio]

This season is about putting our assets in the shop window to sell, nothing more than that.

Rubbish.

[Spiral]

Rubbish.

I mean there's an element of truth to it. It's not necessarily a bad thing. (I do disagree with the "nothing more than that" part, mind).

[taio]

I mean there's an element of truth to it. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

There is an element of truth, which as you say is no bad thing, but I dispute that it's exclusively about that, as suggested.

[Claretmisterg]

There is definitely a plan to develop young talent in order to sell on at a profit. There is then the question as to what degree it is acceptable for that to affect the teams position in the football pyramid. Only time will tell.

[Boss Hogg]

How many are worth more ?

Koleosho

[CharlieinNewMexico]

I think Koleosho will go for 30+ in January. And we’d be right to take it, (hope we don’t) get relegated, and invest it.

Because there isn’t anyone in the league that’s made coaches go “wow, look at that” like he does. Granted, other coaches at the same clubs will say “goes nowhere, runs down culdesacs, doesn’t know what to do with it” and there’s then yet OTHER coaches at the same clubs who are saying “yeah but imagine if I can teach him that”.

If people are paying 40m for Cole Palmer, we will easily get 30+ for Luca.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I think Koleosho will go for 30+ in January. And we’d be right to take it, (hope we don’t) get relegated, and invest it.

Because there isn’t anyone in the league that’s made coaches go “wow, look at that” like he does. Granted, other coaches at the same clubs will say “goes nowhere, runs down culdesacs, doesn’t know what to do with it” and there’s then yet OTHER coaches at the same clubs who are saying “yeah but imagine if I can teach him that”.

If people are paying 40m for Cole Palmer, we will easily get 30+ for Luca.

30 million for Koleosho? Come on, he hasn’t shown anything to suggest he’s worth close to that.

15m at most based on his 13 apps to date

[bumba]

I think Koleosho will go for 30+ in January. And we’d be right to take it, (hope we don’t) get relegated, and invest it.

Because there isn’t anyone in the league that’s made coaches go “wow, look at that” like he does. Granted, other coaches at the same clubs will say “goes nowhere, runs down culdesacs, doesn’t know what to do with it” and there’s then yet OTHER coaches at the same clubs who are saying “yeah but imagine if I can teach him that”.

If people are paying 40m for Cole Palmer, we will easily get 30+ for Luca.

Cole Palmer is scoring and assisting, Koleosho shows glimpses of potential (bags of it) with his dribbling but goes missing for large parts of games and has no end product so far.

Maximum is £15 million in January

[Boss Hogg]

30 + for Koleosho ? Come on

[NewClaret]

30 million for Koleosho? Come on, he hasn’t shown anything to suggest he’s worth close to that.

15m at most based on his 13 apps to date

You’re starting early with the negativity Newcastle. Do you never have a day off?

FWIW, I wholeheartedly disagree, but I cba explaining why because it just breeds more negative responses.

[evensteadiereddie]

I can never understand these Burnley fans who obsess about playing the Premier League, the most fun fans have are in the leagues when Burnley is the big fish.

Much more fun watching Burnley slap Rotherham/Notts County and Stockport than kidding ourselves that we played well against West Ham.

Absolutely right except that we did play well against West Ham.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You’re starting early with the negativity Newcastle. Do you never have a day off?

FWIW, I wholeheartedly disagree, but I cba explaining why because it just breeds more negative responses.

It’s not negativity it just a spec of reality. He’s a very good player, but over egging players doesn’t benefit anyone.

At the moments hes a truly great dribbler (I would argue there arnt many better in the league). However, his decision making in the final third is really poor, he’s also not a particularly great crosser of the ball.

West Ham had a 37.5m pound winger on Saturday, the difference between the players was apparant. Kudus has similar attributes, he’s a good dribbler and has rapid pace. However where they differ is in the decision making and final ball quality.

That is what turns a player from 15m to 30m plus. That is not say Koleosho can’t get there (I personally think he can). But to suggest he’s worth 30m plus in this January window is just being daft.

[Jakubclaret]

You’re starting early with the negativity Newcastle. Do you never have a day off?

FWIW, I wholeheartedly disagree, but I cba explaining why because it just breeds more negative responses.

I'll try with some realism but no doubt it'll be tagged as negativity the usual default response when faced with truth on this board, if he adds goals to his game & ups the assists column you'll have a point, easy on the eye & fancy tricks won't trump that.

[RVclaret]

It’s not negativity it just a spec of reality. He’s a very good player, but over egging players doesn’t benefit anyone.

At the moments hes a truly great dribbler (I would argue there arnt many better in the league). However, his decision making in the final third is really poor, he’s also not a particularly great crosser of the ball.

West Ham had a 37.5m pound winger on Saturday, the difference between the players was apparant. Kudus has similar attributes, he’s a good dribbler and has rapid pace. However where they differ is in the decision making and final ball quality.

That is what turns a player from 15m to 30m plus. That is not say Koleosho can’t get there (I personally think he can). But to suggest he’s worth 30m plus in this January window is just being daft.

If Tella went for 20m for a good season in the Championship (didn’t make anywhere near the same impact in the Prem as Koleosho has), doesn’t that set the barometer?

[Jakubclaret]

If Tella went for 20m for a good season in the Championship (didn’t make anywhere near the same impact in the Prem as Koleosho has), doesn’t that set the barometer?

How can you judge when tella hasn't been afforded the opportunity to showcase his talents in the PL? but what tella did do successfully well is score sh1tloads of goals & contribute to assists, you are valued on tangible substance.

[RVclaret]

How can you judge when tella hasn't been afforded the opportunity to showcase his talents in the PL? but what tella did do successfully well is score sh1tloads of goals & contribute to assists, you are valued on tangible substance.

He has. Saints fans didn’t rate him and the club didn’t rate him to recall in January!

[Jakubclaret]

He has. Saints fans didn’t rate him and the club didn’t rate him to recall in January!

He's never had a proper go in the PL, it was nothing to do with saints fans not rating him that's all they used to bang on about on saintsweb when he was doing exceptionally well for us, that berk Jones didn't rate him & refused to recall him & consequently soon after found himself out of a job I suspect other reasons led to that though besides tella.

[Newcastleclaret93]

If Tella went for 20m for a good season in the Championship (didn’t make anywhere near the same impact in the Prem as Koleosho has), doesn’t that set the barometer?

Tella and koleoshos stats are pretty similar in the prem. in his last season Tella got 1 assist in 14 apps (804 mins) and Koleosho currently has 1 assist in 14 apps (873 mins).

Tella was valued at 4m after that season. His value only increased when he proved his final third capabilities at a lower level.

Like I said if Koleosho can improve in the final third (not just his stats) but his decision making his value will dramatically increase. I think right now 15m is probably his value

[RVclaret]

Tella and koleoshos stats are pretty similar in the prem. in his last season Tella got 1 assist in 14 apps (804 mins) and Koleosho currently has 1 assist in 14 apps (873 mins).

Tella was valued at 4m after that season. His value only increased when he proved his final third capabilities at a lower level.

Like I said if Koleosho can improve in the final third (not just his stats) but his decision making his value will dramatically increase. I think right now 15m is probably his value

Koleosho might only have 1 assist on paper but he’s played a key role in around 5 of our goals. Saturday for example, doesn’t get the assist but I mean, that’s more an assist than someone who passes the ball to a teammate 30 yards out who then sticks one in the top bin!

[Newcastleclaret93]

Koleosho might only have 1 assist on paper but he’s played a key role in around 5 of our goals. Saturday for example, doesn’t get the assist but I mean, that’s more an assist than someone who passes the ball to a teammate 30 yards out who then sticks one in the top bin!

I tend to disagree, I’m not sure he has played a key role. We are the lowest scorers in the league and I personally believe a lot of that is because of poor decision making in the final third (not just Koleosho btw).

My criticism of him is the same as Amdouni, who I also think is poor in the final third.

[NewClaret]

It’s not negativity it just a spec of reality. He’s a very good player, but over egging players doesn’t benefit anyone.

At the moments hes a truly great dribbler (I would argue there arnt many better in the league). However, his decision making in the final third is really poor, he’s also not a particularly great crosser of the ball.

West Ham had a 37.5m pound winger on Saturday, the difference between the players was apparant. Kudus has similar attributes, he’s a good dribbler and has rapid pace. However where they differ is in the decision making and final ball quality.

That is what turns a player from 15m to 30m plus. That is not say Koleosho can’t get there (I personally think he can). But to suggest he’s worth 30m plus in this January window is just being daft.

What makes you feel this board needs a spec of reality at the moment? It’s not as though it’s a hive of positivity, is it? It is really necessary to jump on another posters saying anything remotely positive so you can give them a big dose of realism?

And if you are going to, why not provide the balance you did in your reply to me?

I agree Kudus is the better player. Albeit Koleosho should’ve won us two penalties on Saturday and had he done, would’ve had equal impact in the game as a €45m talent. He’s also 19 vs Kudus at 23 so he’s had 4 more years to improve that decision making to reach a similar standard. My money’s on him doing it much sooner but Koleoso will get there in four years I’m sure, and will play for a bigger club than WHU would be my bet (that’s not being derogatory to them either).

He’s also defensively excellent. I could see why Kompany subbed him, he was blowing, but I’d go as far to say as a knackered Koleoso is better defensively than a fresh Zaroury who basically made a half-arsed effort to support Taylor for the first (then gave up, being the wrong side) and had floated in to the middle, leaving Berge to deal with him for the second. This isn’t a pop at Anass, save to say I have no idea how anyone can watch that and be saying last years team is better than this. If you think it, watch Koleosho’s work rate, his scanning, his positioning out of possession. It’s as superb as his dribbling.

But in terms of sale value, any club in the world is going to realise that its potential you’re paying for, not the product you get today. And it’s all irrelevant because we won’t be selling him in January and certainly not at £15m. The club will know what a talent they have on their hands and will be holding on till either an offer we cannot refuse is received or he’s maximised his potential and we get a fair price for that.

[Clovius Boofus]

Newcastle, do you do anything else with your life apart from spewing out the same old bilge on here for 18 hours a day, year in, year out?

[superdimitri]

Even if we get relegated this season will be a big learning experience. You don't learn much winning every game. Much better we got promoted for financial reasons too.

[CoolClaret]

Koleosho Is a good youngster but I think some people are trying to elevate him to heights that he’s not quite at yet - seems a bit desperate.

[jedi_master]

Koleosho is a fantastic prospect at 19, but he's not where McNeil was at the same age for me. Quicker and more exciting yes, but not got the delivery at all. A lot of room for improvement but certainly a superb signing for £3m, unbelievable business that really. I think he is the one we will easily make a big profit on after relegation, but £30m is way out of kilter with reality I think unless he maybe gets 5 or 6 goals this season too. £20m is possible though for sure.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Newcastle, do you do anything else with your life apart from spewing out the same old bilge on here for 18 hours a day, year in, year out?

No bilge just reality.

I also don’t post half as much as I used to.

[Quicknick]

The most disappointing season after going up in my time as a fan.

[Jakubclaret]

It's easy to talk about learning curves & people learning & improving & all that detracting jazz but when you get down to the nitty gritty the results just aren't good enough that's what it boils down to & that's the top & bottom, he's been entrusted with a massive wedge of cash to go off & assemble a competitive team & the signings haven't been good enough or not ready either way it makes no odds you are left with the same result & massive gaping holes all over the place wingers aside.

[Big Vinny K]

Koleosho is a fantastic prospect at 19, but he's not where McNeil was at the same age for me. Quicker and more exciting yes, but not got the delivery at all. A lot of room for improvement but certainly a superb signing for £3m, unbelievable business that really. I think he is the one we will easily make a big profit on after relegation, but £30m is way out of kilter with reality I think unless he maybe gets 5 or 6 goals this season too. £20m is possible though for sure.

I’d definitely agree it’s nearer to £20m than £30m.
But the reality of the situation is how many teams in this league would want him ? Most of the teams already have wide many on their bench who cost around £20m - West Ham case in point with Cornet and Benrhama who cost £17.5m and £25m respectively and could not get in a team last Saturday with a number of injuries.

Koleosho has performed better than anyone could have expected but he is far from the finished article. He came on as sun for an average Italian u21 team and in the under 19 tournament (think it was u19 ?) he was not starting every game.

Would not be surprised if there is a point this season soon where he could need taking out too - he’s never played this amount of first team football in his life.

All this tells me is that I am not sure anyone right now would gamble £20m or £30m on buying what is still fundamentally potential.

Carry on developing like he is and who knows. But there’s probably every much a chance that he’ll have a dip in form given his age, career and the relatively little he has done at club or national level.

[Quicknick]

I’d definitely agree it’s nearer to £20m than £30m.
But the reality of the situation is how many teams in this league would want him ? Most of the teams already have wide many on their bench who cost around £20m - West Ham case in point with Cornet and Benrhama who cost £17.5m and £25m respectively and could not get in a team last Saturday with a number of injuries.

Koleosho has performed better than anyone could have expected but he is far from the finished article. He came on as sun for an average Italian u21 team and in the under 19 tournament (think it was u19 ?) he was not starting every game.

Would not be surprised if there is a point this season soon where he could need taking out too - he’s never played this amount of first team football in his life.

All this tells me is that I am not sure anyone right now would gamble £20m or £30m on buying what is still fundamentally potential.

Carry on developing like he is and who knows. But there’s probably every much a chance that he’ll have a dip in form given his age, career and the relatively little he has done at club or national level.

If we go down, I'd like to think we'll keep him. If we stay up, too. Big 'if', that second one.