What a horse race

[AGENT_CLARET]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/sofWEzcMdcoBPPzv/

[dandeclaret]

As a huge horse racing fan, and racehorse owner, I think that it's horrendous. I believe there were long penalties dished out for the behaviour on show in that Point To Point (amateur) race. Those horses are very very tired, and should have been pulled up, not constantly asked to go and try to do something again.

[claptrappers_union]

I don't get it. Tired horses won't make a jump…

I've never really ‘got’ horse racing, though. I think because whenever I've met anyone really into it, they have some underlying issue like gambling, alcoholism or chain smoking. It is like it comes with the territory of the ‘sport’ or something.

It makes me think of older men in the pub smoking pipes and muttering stuff no one understands. Though that's my experience decades ago, it might be for a younger audience now with all the fancy apps.

Twenty-odd years ago, I used to do an afternoon shift in a pub, and locals wanted that fake horse racing on, it was like bad CGI but with commentary and everything. Not sure if that's a thing anymore - Virtual Horse Racing

Don’t get me started on the Grand National. Looks to me that it’s just a day for chavs and slappers to play dress up. It might be a good day out, but I’ve never seen the appeal and the ‘ahh **** um’ attitude when a horse dies. I'm no animal cruelty activist or anything, but it just seems a waste to me.

Similarly, greyhound racing. I have been twice on stag dos, and both times, it was a flaky experience—lots of unsavoury types. I was like Louis Theroux, just observing this strange world of groups of boisterous men standing around sticky tables and dogs euthanised every hour or so. One time, I saw a fella thump his girlfriend at the end of the night because she was running her mouth off.

I find it weird. Though there are other sports I don't get either... Boxing is another.

[dandeclaret]

I get that it's your perception, and I don't doubt some of it. Couple of things I'd strongly disagree with though... 1) There's no "Ah **** um" attitude on the rare occasion when a horse sadly dies - there's genuine sadness at each horses loss. 499 out of every 500 runners returns home safe and sound after a race, to a life of luxury that includes the best food, excellent shelter, daily exercise, swimming facilities, sun lamps and steam rooms, vets, dentists physios and blacksmiths on hand to treat any ailments immediately - i've taken people to the stables where we have our horses, and they've been amazed at the level of care that they receive.

2) There'd be no greyhound racing if the rate of injury / death was anywhere near what you've mentioned above.

[Bosscat]

I get that it's your perception, and I don't doubt some of it. Couple of things I'd strongly disagree with though... 1) There's no "Ah **** um" attitude on the rare occasion when a horse sadly dies - there's genuine sadness at each horses loss. 499 out of every 500 runners returns home safe and sound after a race, to a life of luxury that includes the best food, excellent shelter, daily exercise, swimming facilities, sun lamps and steam rooms, vets, dentists physios and blacksmiths on hand to treat any ailments immediately - i've taken people to the stables where we have our horses, and they've been amazed at the level of care that they receive.

2) There'd be no greyhound racing if the rate of injury / death was anywhere near what you've mentioned above.

We visited the Irish National Stud on our Irish trip in October Dan ... very impressive

[dandeclaret]

We visited the Irish National Stud on our Irish trip in October Dan ... very impressive

Yep - it's a great setup. You might have seen my pictures up on the signs around the paddocks. They do an amazing job from a business, education and post race aftercare perspective. One of my favourite places to visit, especially February / March, when all the foals are there and in playful moods.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Those involved should have been banned permanently following this. A really poor advert for the sport.

[dandeclaret]

Those involved should have been banned permanently following this. A really poor advert for the sport.

I think there were very long bans dished out... I think it's a race from a couple of years ago, and I think reminders were sent to all Point to Point committees to remind them of standards.

[Bosscat]

Yep - it's a great setup. You might have seen my pictures up on the signs around the paddocks. They do an amazing job from a business, education and post race aftercare perspective. One of my favourite places to visit, especially February / March, when all the foals are there and in playful moods.

didn't realise they were your pictures

But we were impressed with the whole set up and were told the best time is Feb/March when the foals are there

[ŽižkovClaret]

Thought this was about Coyle at first but realised i'd misread the title

[Neil]

Those involved should have been banned permanently following this. A really poor advert for the sport.

It's not really a sport though is it?
If you weren't allowed to bet on it, it would not exist.

[kentonclaret]

It's not really a sport though is it?
If you weren't allowed to bet on it, it would not exist.

Thank goodness the betting and gaming industry haven’t got their claws into football, before you know they’d have their logos on player’s shirts and be renaming stadiums

[Neil]

Thank goodness the betting and gaming industry haven’t got their claws into football, before you know they’d have their logos on player’s shirts and be renaming stadiums

Don't understand your point. I'm not talking about sponsorship. If betting was made illegal, football, cricket, rugby, snooker, darts etc etc would still exist as sports. Horse racing would not.

[LeadBelly]

I don't get it. Tired horses won't make a jump…

I've never really ‘got’ horse racing, though. I think because whenever I've met anyone really into it, they have some underlying issue like gambling, alcoholism or chain smoking. It is like it comes with the territory of the ‘sport’ or something.

It makes me think of older men in the pub smoking pipes and muttering stuff no one understands. Though that's my experience decades ago, it might be for a younger audience now with all the fancy apps.

Twenty-odd years ago, I used to do an afternoon shift in a pub, and locals wanted that fake horse racing on, it was like bad CGI but with commentary and everything. Not sure if that's a thing anymore - Virtual Horse Racing

Don’t get me started on the Grand National. Looks to me that it’s just a day for chavs and slappers to play dress up. It might be a good day out, but I’ve never seen the appeal and the ‘ahh **** um’ attitude when a horse dies. I'm no animal cruelty activist or anything, but it just seems a waste to me.

Similarly, greyhound racing. I have been twice on stag dos, and both times, it was a flaky experience—lots of unsavoury types. I was like Louis Theroux, just observing this strange world of groups of boisterous men standing around sticky tables and dogs euthanised every hour or so. One time, I saw a fella thump his girlfriend at the end of the night because she was running her mouth off.

I find it weird. Though there are other sports I don't get either... Boxing is another.

I wasn't into horse racing until about 20 years ago (early 50s for me) when I went along to a couple of meetings with some co-workers at a new job. I've gone to more and more racing through the subsequent years. The people I go with are well-rounded people all with good jobs and very respectable family lives. Some of them now own(/part own) race horses and all very much admire/respect the beautiful creatures that horses are.

You do get the odd groups within the attendees who drink too much and get a bit "lairy" but that's not the norm (although the tabloid press photographers jump through hoops to get a few snaps of such people). Is football better?

Ive only ever seen a handful of horses fatally injured (and a couple of those were electrocuted in the parade ring at Newbury because of an electrical fault). I've never seen/heard anybody not completely saddened by a horse fatality.

[dandeclaret]

It's not really a sport though is it?
If you weren't allowed to bet on it, it would not exist.

Point to point racing existed pre "Organised betting". Racing does well in Dubai and Bahrain where betting is not allowed. There are limitations on betting in France where it's also huge.

It wouldn't appeal to the masses, as it's Britain's 2nd most attended sport, but it would still exist. I don't bet too much when my horses run, and would still have racehorses if there was no betting (as long as prizemoney existed).

[kentonclaret]

Don't understand your point. I'm not talking about sponsorship. If betting was made illegal, football, cricket, rugby, snooker, darts etc etc would still exist as sports. Horse racing would not.

I very much doubt if darts would be able to continue in it’s current form as all of the major European tours and televised events are heavily sponsored by the betting and gaming industry. Not only are they sponsoring these events but they are the MAIN sponsors by some way.

[Neil]

Point to point racing existed pre "Organised betting". Racing does well in Dubai and Bahrain where betting is not allowed. There are limitations on betting in France where it's also huge.

It wouldn't appeal to the masses, as it's Britain's 2nd most attended sport, but it would still exist. I don't bet too much when my horses run, and would still have racehorses if there was no betting (as long as prizemoney existed).

There's no way of proving my point, or you yours.
Gambling will always be there and if it's made illegal it will still always be there.
Lord knows how much is gambled in Dubai and Bahrain on horse racing unofficially.

[Neil]

I very much doubt if darts would be able to continue in it’s current form as all of the major European tours and televised events are heavily sponsored by the betting and gaming industry. Not only are they sponsoring these events but they are the MAIN sponsors by some way.

Well you're probably correct at the top of the sport but there will always be people playing competitively for the love of the game, even if it's back how it started in the local pubs. Same with all the other sports I mentioned.
I just don't think you could say the same about horse racing.

[kentonclaret]

Well you're probably correct at the top of the sport but there will always be people playing competitively for the love of the game, even if it's back how it started in the local pubs. Same with all the other sports I mentioned.
I just don't think you could say the same about horse racing.

Horse racing as a professional sport in the UK can be traced back to the 12th century when knights returned from the Crusades with some Arab horses. From those Arab horses. we established the classic thoroughbred.
Not a bookie nor a footballer in sight.

[dandeclaret]

Well you're probably correct at the top of the sport but there will always be people playing competitively for the love of the game, even if it's back how it started in the local pubs. Same with all the other sports I mentioned.
I just don't think you could say the same about horse racing.

The race shown above is from a point to point… an amateur sport where there is very little betting done at all. It’s the exact thing you’re saying wouldn’t happen.

[DCWat]

I hate seeing stuff like this - glad to read that there were penalties dished out (hopefully very harsh penalties at that).

Seeing horses treated this way will do little to change some people’s perception of it being a cruel sport.

I’m sure that as Dan says, most are treated fantastically, but if jockey’s and owners at this level (is point to point amateur?) see fit to treat their animals in this way, I do question whether that good treatment filters down to the lower levels.

[dandeclaret]

Point to point is amateur…. I’ve never seen anything like the above race either on professional or amateur racing, and that’s in over 30 years of watching racing.

[Neil]

The race shown above is from a point to point… an amateur sport where there is very little betting done at all. It’s the exact thing you’re saying wouldn’t happen.

Fair enough but it also kind of confirms what I was originally trying to say.
If there was no way to gamble on football, golf, snooker, tennis etc, the attendances would still be the same and the big events would still be televised and watched by millions.
What I've just watched on that clip is a snapshot of what horse racing would probably become other than a few high profile events and would no longer be enjoyed by the masses.
If anyone enjoys racing for the love of it, then fair play to you.
Neither gambling or racing are passions of mine and I didn't much fancy a debate on the subject.
Was just meant to be a one comment and out kinda deal

[boyyanno]

Fair enough but it also kind of confirms what I was originally trying to say.
If there was no way to gamble on football, golf, snooker, tennis etc, the attendances would still be the same and the big events would still be televised and watched by millions.
What I've just watched on that clip is a snapshot of what horse racing would probably become other than a few high profile events and would no longer be enjoyed by the masses.
If anyone enjoys racing for the love of it, then fair play to you.
Neither gambling or racing are passions of mine and I didn't much fancy a debate on the subject.
Was just meant to be a one comment and out kinda deal

How does it confirm that?

There's amateur football/snooker/darts/golf going on all the time but there's not crowds of people showing up to watch them

[Rileybobs]

Horse racing as a professional sport in the UK can be traced back to the 12th century when knights returned from the Crusades with some Arab horses. From those Arab horses. we established the classic thoroughbred.
Not a bookie nor a footballer in sight.

Are you sure there wasn’t a bookie in sight?

[Neil]

How does it confirm that?

There's amateur football/snooker/darts/golf going on all the time but there's not crowds of people showing up to watch them

I'll try it one last time.

My opinion is that if you removed betting from sport, the attendances of Chelsea v Arsenal or Coventry v Birmingham or Bolton v Derby or Notts County v Swindon would be exactly the same as they are now.
Likewise Wimbledon, The British Open, The Olympics or Fury v Joshua.

It's also my opinion that the Grand National, Cheltenham, The Derby etc may hold some small interest but you would not have thousands of people wanting to attend if they could not place a bet on the outcome of the races.
And daily meetings at York, Chepstow and Doncaster would probably cease to exist due to the lack of interest.

The video shown in this thread (which I very briefly glanced at) showed about 15 people in attendance.

So what I meant by it confirms what I was saying, is that I believe that this is what horse racing would become without gambling.

Hope that makes sense whether you agree with me or not but I'm out now.

[boyyanno]

I'll try it one last time.

My opinion is that if you removed betting from sport, the attendances of Chelsea v Arsenal or Coventry v Birmingham or Bolton v Derby or Notts County v Swindon would be exactly the same as they are now.
Likewise Wimbledon, The British Open, The Olympics or Fury v Joshua.

It's also my opinion that the Grand National, Cheltenham, The Derby etc may hold some small interest but you would not have thousands of people wanting to attend if they could not place a bet on the outcome of the races.
And daily meetings at York, Chepstow and Doncaster would probably cease to exist due to the lack of interest.

The video shown in this thread (which I very briefly glanced at) showed about 15 people in attendance.

So what I meant by it confirms what I was saying, is that I believe that this is what horse racing would become without gambling.

Hope that makes sense whether you agree with me or not but I'm out now.

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with you, it's about trying to understand how you think this video supports that opinion.

The video from this thread is from an amateur level, that's been explained. So having very few people there is to be expected, and is exactly the same in pretty much any sport. If you disagree then go to your local pitch on a Saturday and see how many people turn up.

[Neil]

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with you, it's about trying to understand how you think this video supports that opinion.

The video from this thread is from an amateur level, that's been explained. So having very few people there is to be expected, and is exactly the same in pretty much any sport. If you disagree then go to your local pitch on a Saturday and see how many people turn up.

Ok I'll have one more crack at it even though it's already in pretty simple terms in my last post.

FA Cup Final - full house
FA cup Final without gambling - full house

Local park football - 30 people
Local park football without gambling - 30 people

Grand National - full house
Grand National without gambling - the video on this thread.

So l what I'm saying is football would not turn into an amateur sport without gambling but horse racing would.

Disclaimer - yes there would be more than 15 people at the Grand National without the betting but I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's definitely all from me on this.

[boyyanno]

Ok I'll have one more crack at it even though it's already in pretty simple terms in my last post.

FA Cup Final - full house
FA cup Final without gambling - full house

Local park football - 30 people
Local park football without gambling - 30 people

Grand National - full house
Grand National without gambling - the video on this thread.

So l what I'm saying is football would not turn into an amateur sport without gambling but horse racing would.

Disclaimer - yes there would be more than 15 people at the Grand National without the betting but I'm trying to keep it simple.

That's definitely all from me on this.

I already understand your point. I disagree with it which I'm assuming is okay with you?

I'm just pointing out that the video does not back up your argument at all, I just wondered why you thought it did so, but it doesn't matter as you can't provide any sort of explanation as to why it does.

For the record this site is about debate and engagement. If you want to drop comments on posts and run off that's okay but it's not what most people are here for.

[Neil]

I already understand your point. I disagree with it which I'm assuming is okay with you?

I'm just pointing out that the video does not back up your argument at all, I just wondered why you thought it did so, but it doesn't matter as you can't provide any sort of explanation as to why it does.

For the record this site is about debate and engagement. If you want to drop comments on posts and run off that's okay but it's not what most people are here for.

The video shows an amateur horse racing event.
I meant it kind of shows what a professional event would look like if betting was removed.

It's quite straightforward.

Of course it's ok for you to disagree, but I'm saying the same thing over and over in different ways.

It's ok to make a single point and move on and not debate and engage too.

There's only me and you interested in the thread after the initial few posts so I don't think it's worth thrashing out any further.

I'm sorry you don't understand my explanation and maybe it's my fault with the wording.

Have a good one.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Wow it starts with a bit of fun, then it all ends up like this again ffs

[daveisaclaret]

Can you explain what makes the video you posted funny?

[Neil]

Wow it starts with a bit of fun, then it all ends up like this again ffs

I tried to withdraw many times

[claret2018]

He’s not wrong though. I’d guess 95% of people who go to the races are there to gamble and/or get absolutely wasted.

Every time I’ve been dragged to a horse racing day it’s been chav-central.

[dandeclaret]

Guess.... being the key word. I probably go racing somewhere in the region of 50-60 days a year.

Occasional bet, occasional drink..... rarely to heavily gamble, never to get totally wasted..... and the same applies for the hundreds / thousands of people that I meet and interact with at those meetings.

No chavs either...... guess it depends where you go, and what you do though eh?

[AGENT_CLARET]

Can you explain what makes the video you posted funny?

Can you explain why it needs explaining

[Nonayforever]

Guess.... being the key word. I probably go racing somewhere in the region of 50-60 days a year.

Occasional bet, occasional drink..... rarely to heavily gamble, never to get totally wasted..... and the same applies for the hundreds / thousands of people that I meet and interact with at those meetings.

No chavs either...... guess it depends where you go, and what you do though eh?

100 % totally agree.

A Saturday afternoon race meeting at Haydock Park in August is a world away from a winter mid week meeting at Uttoxeter or Wetherby.
I would even hazard a guess that the majority of people at a race meeting don't even have a bet in the true sense of the word.

[dandeclaret]

Yep - totally. It's even miles away from the Hennessy meeting at Newbury, despite the crowds for both being pretty big.

Once Punchestown is over, I am off racing until Chepstow in October, except for the odd Irish summer jumps meeting at the likes of Kilbeggan, Killarney or Sligo.