Verbruggen Errors

[CrosspoolClarets]

Horrendous error tonight for our original transfer target. That is multiple “errors leading to goals” this season and he has only played half the games.

Trafford is on zero.

We are joint 3rd in the full club rankings with 4 errors - bettered (worsed) by Brighton and Arsenal believe it or not.

I think my point on this is, most clubs are at it, risk reward. But we have to bag enough at the other end with that extra possession to make it worth it.

Anyway, great that BHA equalised, hope they hang on or better.

[ClaretTony]

Weird what De Zerbi is doing with his goalkeepers, keep swapping them.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Weird what De Zerbi is doing with his goalkeepers, keep swapping them.

No clean sheets in 18 games for such a good side speaks volumes.

[Taffy on the wing]

Trafford is on zero.

........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?

[Carwin261]

Trafford is on zero.

........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?

No Dianne Abbott .

[Goliath]

Young keepers tend to really struggle in this league. Theres not many that come in at aged 20/21 and do well immediately.

[Wokingclaret]

Young keepers tend to really struggle in this league. Theres not many that come in at aged 20/21 and do well immediately.

Nail on the head

[NewClaret]

I initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.

Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.

[Jakubclaret]

I initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.

Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.

Based on 1 error tonight you have deduced that assessment, totting up the individual errors on a scorecard you might be wiser drawing a different conclusion.

[daveisaclaret]

Nobody in the world believes Trafford hasn't had any errors that lead to goals.

[Jakubclaret]

You not kidding!

[Wokingclaret]

I initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.

Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.

Yep for relegation.

[Wokingclaret]

Muric deserved to be No 1, that said, we needed an experienced keeper

[NewClaret]

Based on 1 error tonight you have deduced that assessment, totting up the individual errors on a scorecard you might be wiser drawing a different conclusion.

No not at all, I’ve not even watched tonight’s game. I’ve watched him closely in maybe 3-4 Brighton games and in each I’ve thought he looked shaky. Maybe I caught particularly bad ones as I don’t watch all of Brighton’s games but I left each feeling glad we’d signed Trafford. And like I say, I’m very much Muric in and was also gutted when we lost out on Verbruggen in summer, so it’s not my bias in any way.

[Jakubclaret]

No not at all, I’ve not even watched tonight’s game. I’ve watched him closely in maybe 3-4 Brighton games and in each I’ve thought he looked shaky. Maybe I caught particularly bad ones as I don’t watch all of Brighton’s games but I left each feeling glad we’d signed Trafford. And like I say, I’m very much Muric in and was also gutted when we lost out on Verbruggen in summer, so it’s not my bias in any way.

So let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Trafford is on zero.

........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?

The Premier League official site, stats page.

By the way, for balance, Trafford has conceded about 3-4 more than his expected goals conceded, plus his distribution is more laboured than Muric, so I’m not saying he has been superb, just stating facts.

[NewClaret]

So let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.

It’s pretty simple.

I think we should be playing Muric, for a few reasons:

1. I think he earned it last year.
2. I think his distribution is important to how we play and would improve us.
3. I think he’d be a bit stronger in the air. He got much better as the season went on in that respect (Trafford will too).
4. He’s a few years older and I think that experience would help in our current plight.

I still think Trafford is a decent keeper though, and I think his shot stopping is better than Muric’s. I imagine that’s why he plays him, because he knows that last line of defence Will be called upon a lot in the Prem. I think we lose at Brighton with Muric and never concede the corner vs Everton because I doubt Muric would’ve pulled that worldie save off beforehand. The next kick would’ve been on the centre circle.

So of the two young keepers, having seen them both play at the same level now, I prefer Trafford having initially favoured Verbruggen. The difference is that Kompany is playing his young keeper permanently and Di Zerbi is rotating.

League position is irrelevant because clearly what’s in front of them plays the biggest part in that and I don’t think anyone is arguing we have a better outfield than Brighton.

[SalisburyClaret]

Yep another thread that has been taken over by those that want to have a go at Trafford.

We paid a lot of money for him - just get over it

[Jakubclaret]

It’s pretty simple.

I think we should be playing Muric, for a few reasons:

1. I think he earned it last year.
2. I think his distribution is important to how we play and would improve us.
3. I think he’d be a bit stronger in the air. He got much better as the season went on in that respect (Trafford will too).
4. He’s a few years older and I think that experience would help in our current plight.

I still think Trafford is a decent keeper though, and I think his shot stopping is better than Muric’s. I imagine that’s why he plays him. I think we lose at Brighton with Muric and never concede the corner vs Everton because I doubt Muric would’ve pulled that worldie save off. The next kick would’ve been on the centre circle.

So of the two young keepers, having seen them both play at the same level now, I prefer Trafford having initially favoured Verbruggen. The difference is that Kompany is playing his young keeper permanently and Di Zerbi is rotating.

League position is irrelevant because clearly what’s in front of them plays the biggest part in that and I don’t think anyone is arguing we have a better outfield than Brighton.

I find that thought process really bizarre most weeks trafford is getting pretty much crucified on here for his catalogue of never-ending mistakes & BV hardly gets a mention on NSC but you prefer JT. Point granted with what's in front of them but even making allowances for that I'd still rate a goalkeeper who hardly gets criticized above 1 who can't avoid criticism.

[Vegas Claret]

I didn't even know they were playing

[Woodleyclaret]

Trafford errors v Everton led to 2 goals
He was as weak as pxxx in his attempt to catch cross for goal 1 and a schoolboy parry led to goal 2.

[roperclaret]

So let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.

There’s 10 other players on the pitch you know?

[Jakubclaret]

There’s 10 other players on the pitch you know?

Yes we aren't discussing 10 other players though we are discussing BV & JT.

[Nori1958]

Trafford errors v Everton led to 2 goals
He was as weak as pxxx in his attempt to catch cross for goal 1 and a schoolboy parry led to goal 2.

I saw 5 minutes of the game last night....palace had a corner and the goalkeeper stayed firmly on his line. I got slated for saying that's how they are coached, according to ex pros.....seems Brighton are doing it, though I've only seen the one corner

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.

I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.

Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.

[alwaysaclaret]

So let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.

Logged in just to like this, absolutely spot on.

[Jakubclaret]

Logged in just to like this, absolutely spot on.

It's quite comical when you think about it given Brighton probably had the option to choose either keeper but opted for BV & overlooked JT. But what do professional goalkeeping scouts know as opposed to being armed with the superior knowledge we clearly have in abundance onboard here.

[CoolClaret]

Not sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.

I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.

Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.

Heats is 6ft1 and would have claimed that - and he would've claimed the one at Arsenal.

Traff closed his eyes on both and tried to punch.

[bumba]

Not sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.

I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.

Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.

So why didn't Trafford catch it if he's 6 ft 6 standing so with his hands up which makes him well over 7 ft?

[StayingDown4Ever]

Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.

Hell fire - how bad is this Verbruggen?

As for credit needing to go to Kompany for persisting with Trafford - you can’t be serious. That’s been his biggest error since taking the reins.

[roperclaret]

Yes we aren't discussing 10 other players though we are discussing BV & JT.

So what are you saying? That the league table is determined by who has the best goalkeeper?

[Jakubclaret]

So what are you saying? That the league table is determined by who has the best goalkeeper?

I'm saying BV is a better goalkeeper irrespective of whoever is in front & that's backed up with brighton taking BV & leaving us with JT. It's no secret BV was our preferred choice & when failed to materialize JT was identified as a second choice.

[Quickenthetempo]

Not sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton

It was the line about Trafford being on zero mistakes leading to goals

[Ric_C]

It was the line about Trafford being on zero mistakes leading to goals

He made two last week!

[Nori1958]

He made two last week!

Official stats from Premier league says he's made no.. None.... Zilch.. Errors leading to goals..

[bumba]

Stats can be misleading, the goal at Wolves who does that go down as a mistake by?
Bet they've given it as a Berge mistake but to me O'Shea made the mistake.
Trafford never made a mistake as in a bad pass to concede against Everton but it is definitely a mistake to not catch or punch that ball as highlighted by pundits and ex goalkeepers

[boatshed bill]

Stats can be misleading, the goal at Wolves who does that go down as a mistake by?
Bet they've given it as a Berge mistake but to me O'Shea made the mistake.
Trafford never made a mistake as in a bad pass to concede against Everton but it is definitely a mistake to not catch or punch that ball as highlighted by pundits and ex goalkeepers

Actually being outjumped, or not even jumping, for a cross wouldn't be classed as a mistake.
Making a serious effort to catch the cross and dropping it for a tap-in...that's a mistake.

[CoolClaret]

Official stats from Premier league says he's made no.. None.... Zilch.. Errors leading to goals..

Perfect example as to why you cannot base opinions solely on data for football.

SofaScore for example has Koleosho as our 18th best performing player of the season and Vitinho our 23rd (out of 26) and I think we’d all agree that’s just absolute nonsense, right?

[bumba]

Actually being outjumped, or not even jumping, for a cross wouldn't be classed as a mistake.
Making a serious effort to catch the cross and dropping it for a tap-in...that's a mistake.

100% a mistake against Everton, jumped off both feet instead of one that's a mistake for a goalkeeper.
A goalkeeper being out jumped by an outfield player is definitely a mistake, it shouldn't happen.

[boatshed bill]

100% a mistake against Everton, jumped off both feet instead of one that's a mistake for a goalkeeper.
A goalkeeper being out jumped by an outfield player is definitely a mistake, it shouldn't happen.

What you or I call it makes no difference.

[alwaysaclaret]

Perfect example as to why you cannot base opinions solely on data for football.

SofaScore for example has Koleosho as our 18th best performing player of the season and Vitinho our 23rd (out of 26) and I think we’d all agree that’s just absolute nonsense, right?

Exactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.

[boatshed bill]

Exactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.

I think they are using analytic equipment, Pixellot, or similar. Cameras following each player.

[CoolClaret]

Exactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.

Spot on.

Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.

It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.

Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.

I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…

They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.

Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.

Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses

whilst trying to

target perceived weaknesses of the opposition

Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…

So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.

Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.

I just don’t get it.

[bumba]

What you or I call it makes no difference.

It does because we all know who has really made the mistakes

[bumba]

Spot on.

Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.

It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.

Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.

I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…

They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.

Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.

Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses

whilst trying to

target perceived weaknesses of the opposition

Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…

So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.

Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.

I just don’t get it.

Because it's all going to click after the meetings and we'll finish top half

[StayingDown4Ever]

Official stats from Premier league says he's made no.. None.... Zilch.. Errors leading to goals..

Trafford’s dad strikes again!

[Nori1958]

Trafford’s dad strikes again!

Childish behaviour strikes again

[NewClaret]

Spot on.

Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.

It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.

Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.

I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…

They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.

Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.

Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses

whilst trying to

target perceived weaknesses of the opposition

Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…

So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.

Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.

I just don’t get it.

So you agree that it should help inform decisions?

To do so, you have to analyse the data and report what it is saying. Thats what our bench were probably doing with their laptops out as well as probably communicating with those in the stands (VK has a team up there in the longside).

I think everyone’s agreed that data analytics has a role to play in modern sports in general and certainly in football. I never hear VK discuss data analysis as being pivotal to any of his decision-making. But we absolutely should be gathering data, analysing it and deciding if it’s relevant or could give us any form of competitive environment.

If I’d heard him in an interview saying that he’d signed player X or Y based on the data having never seen them play, or he’d made a substitution based on some in-game data the back room team had informed him of, or VK sat on the bench with his head in a laptop instead of being stood watching the match which he does every game, I could understand you having an issue with it. But that hasn’t happened, so I cannot understand at all why you would be in any way objectionable to us using modern techniques.

[alwaysaclaret]

I think they are using analytic equipment, Pixellot, or similar. Cameras following each player.

Whatever their using it's not working imo, and making the game far more complicated than need be, needless to say the players most of the time look as though they haven't a clue what's going on, it's getting worse as the season progresses, and carry on this way those that think we're bouncing back up when relegated are deluded imo, but then we all have different opinions of course, but I reckon it will be harder 2nd time around.

[CoolClaret]

So you agree that it should help inform decisions?

To do so, you have to analyse the data and report what it is saying. Thats what our bench were probably doing with their laptops out as well as probably communicating with those in the stands (VK has a team up there in the longside).

I think everyone’s agreed that data analytics has a role to play in modern sports in general and certainly in football. I never hear VK discuss data analysis as being pivotal to any of his decision-making. But we absolutely should be gathering data, analysing it and deciding if it’s relevant or could give us any form of competitive environment.

If I’d heard him in an interview saying that he’d signed player X or Y based on the data having never seen them play, or he’d made a substitution based on some in-game data the back room team had informed him of, or VK sat on the bench with his head in a laptop instead of being stood watching the match which he does every game, I could understand you having an issue with it. But that hasn’t happened, so I cannot understand at all why you would be in any way objectionable to us using modern techniques.

That is exactly how we’ve signed players for this season.

We are solely data driven on recruitment. 0 first team scouts