Verbruggen Errors
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Verbruggen Errors
Horrendous error tonight for our original transfer target. That is multiple “errors leading to goals” this season and he has only played half the games.
Trafford is on zero.
We are joint 3rd in the full club rankings with 4 errors - bettered (worsed) by Brighton and Arsenal believe it or not.
I think my point on this is, most clubs are at it, risk reward. But we have to bag enough at the other end with that extra possession to make it worth it.
Anyway, great that BHA equalised, hope they hang on or better.
Trafford is on zero.
We are joint 3rd in the full club rankings with 4 errors - bettered (worsed) by Brighton and Arsenal believe it or not.
I think my point on this is, most clubs are at it, risk reward. But we have to bag enough at the other end with that extra possession to make it worth it.
Anyway, great that BHA equalised, hope they hang on or better.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Weird what De Zerbi is doing with his goalkeepers, keep swapping them.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
No clean sheets in 18 games for such a good side speaks volumes.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:55 pmWeird what De Zerbi is doing with his goalkeepers, keep swapping them.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Trafford is on zero.
........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?
........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?
Re: Verbruggen Errors
No Dianne Abbott .Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:19 pmTrafford is on zero.
........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Young keepers tend to really struggle in this league. Theres not many that come in at aged 20/21 and do well immediately.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
I initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.
Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.
Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Based on 1 error tonight you have deduced that assessment, totting up the individual errors on a scorecard you might be wiser drawing a different conclusion.NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:59 pmI initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.
Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Nobody in the world believes Trafford hasn't had any errors that lead to goals.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
You not kidding!
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Yep for relegation.NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:59 pmI initially thought Trafford was our second choice but it does make me wonder if he was actually first choice.
Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Muric deserved to be No 1, that said, we needed an experienced keeper
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
No not at all, I’ve not even watched tonight’s game. I’ve watched him closely in maybe 3-4 Brighton games and in each I’ve thought he looked shaky. Maybe I caught particularly bad ones as I don’t watch all of Brighton’s games but I left each feeling glad we’d signed Trafford. And like I say, I’m very much Muric in and was also gutted when we lost out on Verbruggen in summer, so it’s not my bias in any way.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:02 pmBased on 1 error tonight you have deduced that assessment, totting up the individual errors on a scorecard you might be wiser drawing a different conclusion.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
So let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:41 pmNo not at all, I’ve not even watched tonight’s game. I’ve watched him closely in maybe 3-4 Brighton games and in each I’ve thought he looked shaky. Maybe I caught particularly bad ones as I don’t watch all of Brighton’s games but I left each feeling glad we’d signed Trafford. And like I say, I’m very much Muric in and was also gutted when we lost out on Verbruggen in summer, so it’s not my bias in any way.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
The Premier League official site, stats page.Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:19 pmTrafford is on zero.
........who's doing the counting?...Elmer Fudd?
By the way, for balance, Trafford has conceded about 3-4 more than his expected goals conceded, plus his distribution is more laboured than Muric, so I’m not saying he has been superb, just stating facts.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
It’s pretty simple.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:58 pmSo let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.
I think we should be playing Muric, for a few reasons:
1. I think he earned it last year.
2. I think his distribution is important to how we play and would improve us.
3. I think he’d be a bit stronger in the air. He got much better as the season went on in that respect (Trafford will too).
4. He’s a few years older and I think that experience would help in our current plight.
I still think Trafford is a decent keeper though, and I think his shot stopping is better than Muric’s. I imagine that’s why he plays him, because he knows that last line of defence Will be called upon a lot in the Prem. I think we lose at Brighton with Muric and never concede the corner vs Everton because I doubt Muric would’ve pulled that worldie save off beforehand. The next kick would’ve been on the centre circle.
So of the two young keepers, having seen them both play at the same level now, I prefer Trafford having initially favoured Verbruggen. The difference is that Kompany is playing his young keeper permanently and Di Zerbi is rotating.
League position is irrelevant because clearly what’s in front of them plays the biggest part in that and I don’t think anyone is arguing we have a better outfield than Brighton.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Yep another thread that has been taken over by those that want to have a go at Trafford.
We paid a lot of money for him - just get over it
We paid a lot of money for him - just get over it
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
I find that thought process really bizarre most weeks trafford is getting pretty much crucified on here for his catalogue of never-ending mistakes & BV hardly gets a mention on NSC but you prefer JT. Point granted with what's in front of them but even making allowances for that I'd still rate a goalkeeper who hardly gets criticized above 1 who can't avoid criticism.NewClaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:14 amIt’s pretty simple.
I think we should be playing Muric, for a few reasons:
1. I think he earned it last year.
2. I think his distribution is important to how we play and would improve us.
3. I think he’d be a bit stronger in the air. He got much better as the season went on in that respect (Trafford will too).
4. He’s a few years older and I think that experience would help in our current plight.
I still think Trafford is a decent keeper though, and I think his shot stopping is better than Muric’s. I imagine that’s why he plays him. I think we lose at Brighton with Muric and never concede the corner vs Everton because I doubt Muric would’ve pulled that worldie save off. The next kick would’ve been on the centre circle.
So of the two young keepers, having seen them both play at the same level now, I prefer Trafford having initially favoured Verbruggen. The difference is that Kompany is playing his young keeper permanently and Di Zerbi is rotating.
League position is irrelevant because clearly what’s in front of them plays the biggest part in that and I don’t think anyone is arguing we have a better outfield than Brighton.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
I didn't even know they were playing
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Trafford errors v Everton led to 2 goals
He was as weak as pxxx in his attempt to catch cross for goal 1 and a schoolboy parry led to goal 2.
He was as weak as pxxx in his attempt to catch cross for goal 1 and a schoolboy parry led to goal 2.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
There’s 10 other players on the pitch you know?Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:58 pmSo let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Yes we aren't discussing 10 other players though we are discussing BV & JT.
Re: Verbruggen Errors
I saw 5 minutes of the game last night....palace had a corner and the goalkeeper stayed firmly on his line. I got slated for saying that's how they are coached, according to ex pros.....seems Brighton are doing it, though I've only seen the one cornerWoodleyclaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:33 amTrafford errors v Everton led to 2 goals
He was as weak as pxxx in his attempt to catch cross for goal 1 and a schoolboy parry led to goal 2.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Not sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.
I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.
Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.
I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.
Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Logged in just to like this, absolutely spot on.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:58 pmSo let me get this right so there's no confusion or misunderstanding, you prefer muric to trafford & you also think trafford is a better keeper than BV, which can only leave the mystery of how a club that's positioned 8th in the table has somewhat found itself worse off (goalkeeper wise) than another club who's positioned 19th with 2 better goalkeepers. Something somewhere doesn't make sense.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
It's quite comical when you think about it given Brighton probably had the option to choose either keeper but opted for BV & overlooked JT. But what do professional goalkeeping scouts know as opposed to being armed with the superior knowledge we clearly have in abundance onboard here.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Heats is 6ft1 and would have claimed that - and he would've claimed the one at Arsenal.CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:48 amNot sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.
I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.
Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.
Traff closed his eyes on both and tried to punch.
Re: Verbruggen Errors
So why didn't Trafford catch it if he's 6 ft 6 standing so with his hands up which makes him well over 7 ft?CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:48 amNot sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton but on that subject their 6ft 5 midfielder appeared to be about 3ft off the ground and headed it at or above the height of the crossbar. It was Andy Carroll-esque.
I agree there were technical issues with that jump (off both feet, reaching with two hands, eyes shut) but it was a bloody good goal, and from a brilliant cross. It wasn’t an error. It just wasn’t as strong as it needed to be.
Back on topic, I cannot see Verbruggen making that save, or indeed any keeper 6 ft 2 or less.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Hell fire - how bad is this Verbruggen?NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:59 pm
Trafford definitely looks the better acquisition.
, although it can’t be easy on Verbruggen being chopped and changed all the time. Whilst I was and still am Muric in, some credit needs to go to Kompany here for persisting with him and giving him the time he needs to develop.
As for credit needing to go to Kompany for persisting with Trafford - you can’t be serious. That’s been his biggest error since taking the reins.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
So what are you saying? That the league table is determined by who has the best goalkeeper?Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:16 amYes we aren't discussing 10 other players though we are discussing BV & JT.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
I'm saying BV is a better goalkeeper irrespective of whoever is in front & that's backed up with brighton taking BV & leaving us with JT. It's no secret BV was our preferred choice & when failed to materialize JT was identified as a second choice.roperclaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:50 amSo what are you saying? That the league table is determined by who has the best goalkeeper?
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
It was the line about Trafford being on zero mistakes leading to goalsCrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:48 amNot sure why this thread I started about Verbruggen became yet another debate about Trafford vs Everton
Re: Verbruggen Errors
He made two last week!Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:09 amIt was the line about Trafford being on zero mistakes leading to goals
Re: Verbruggen Errors
Stats can be misleading, the goal at Wolves who does that go down as a mistake by?
Bet they've given it as a Berge mistake but to me O'Shea made the mistake.
Trafford never made a mistake as in a bad pass to concede against Everton but it is definitely a mistake to not catch or punch that ball as highlighted by pundits and ex goalkeepers
Bet they've given it as a Berge mistake but to me O'Shea made the mistake.
Trafford never made a mistake as in a bad pass to concede against Everton but it is definitely a mistake to not catch or punch that ball as highlighted by pundits and ex goalkeepers
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
bumba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:53 amStats can be misleading, the goal at Wolves who does that go down as a mistake by?
Bet they've given it as a Berge mistake but to me O'Shea made the mistake.
Trafford never made a mistake as in a bad pass to concede against Everton but it is definitely a mistake to not catch or punch that ball as highlighted by pundits and ex goalkeepers
Actually being outjumped, or not even jumping, for a cross wouldn't be classed as a mistake.
Making a serious effort to catch the cross and dropping it for a tap-in...that's a mistake.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Perfect example as to why you cannot base opinions solely on data for football.
SofaScore for example has Koleosho as our 18th best performing player of the season and Vitinho our 23rd (out of 26) and I think we’d all agree that’s just absolute nonsense, right?
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
100% a mistake against Everton, jumped off both feet instead of one that's a mistake for a goalkeeper.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:55 amActually being outjumped, or not even jumping, for a cross wouldn't be classed as a mistake.
Making a serious effort to catch the cross and dropping it for a tap-in...that's a mistake.
A goalkeeper being out jumped by an outfield player is definitely a mistake, it shouldn't happen.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Exactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:56 amPerfect example as to why you cannot base opinions solely on data for football.
SofaScore for example has Koleosho as our 18th best performing player of the season and Vitinho our 23rd (out of 26) and I think we’d all agree that’s just absolute nonsense, right?
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
alwaysaclaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:10 pmExactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.
I think they are using analytic equipment, Pixellot, or similar. Cameras following each player.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
alwaysaclaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:10 pmExactly CC, I've posted on another thread that there was an instance where the TV cameras focused on the bench last Saturday and in complete contrast the vk backroom were all on there laptop looking for an answer how we win the game, there was nothing of the sort on dyches bench, this obviously goes some way to explaining our league position may be, football isn't played on a laptop, vk in my opinion has forgotten how to just play simple football, based on what he see's in front of he's eyes, in true dyche words he needs to stop over thinking and complicating matters. Just target areas of opposition weakness and defend properly, simple football.
Spot on.
Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.
It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.
Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.
I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…
They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.
Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.
Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses
whilst trying to
target perceived weaknesses of the opposition
Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…
So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.
Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.
I just don’t get it.
Re: Verbruggen Errors
It does because we all know who has really made the mistakes
Re: Verbruggen Errors
Because it's all going to click after the meetings and we'll finish top halfCoolClaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:28 pmSpot on.
Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.
It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.
Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.
I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…
They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.
Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.
Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses
whilst trying to
target perceived weaknesses of the opposition
Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…
So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.
Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.
I just don’t get it.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Childish behaviour strikes again
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
So you agree that it should help inform decisions?CoolClaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:28 pmSpot on.
Chasing data/chasing an algorithm is daft.
It should inform decisions no doubt but can easily have yourself tied in knots.
Football is a simple game as you say - its complex in terms of it being a dynamic game with no real gain line.
I always make the reference to ‘moneyball’ and the Oakland As that really pioneered the data first approach to try and win a World Series as an under dog, bu prioritising stats like RBI (runs batted in) and OBP (on base percentage) to try and get unfancied players that could in theory win games…
They did very well - still didn’t win a World Series and baseball is a hell of a lot ‘simpler’ than football. One/two real phases of the game (pitch, then fielding the ball), the batter hits the ball at best 1/3 sort of times and EVEN THEN it didn’t get them over the line.
Football in comparison is very dynamic, and has a lot more nuance that you can’t really justify with some algorithm, imo.
Still is a ‘simple game’ - get a playstyle that
maximises the strengths of the players that you currently have and minimises their weaknesses
whilst trying to
target perceived weaknesses of the opposition
Case in point right now for us - we can’t play out after inviting a press with the personal that we continue to play, yet we keep trying it and it keeps backfiring in our face AND we also cannot defend set pieces with the ball in the 6 yard box…
So what have managers done against us? Pressed us high, and stuck the ball in the 6 yard box.
Really not rocket science is it? Yet our manager and his ginormous back room team keep making the same mistake week in and week out, whilst being paid an absolute fortune in the process.
I just don’t get it.
To do so, you have to analyse the data and report what it is saying. Thats what our bench were probably doing with their laptops out as well as probably communicating with those in the stands (VK has a team up there in the longside).
I think everyone’s agreed that data analytics has a role to play in modern sports in general and certainly in football. I never hear VK discuss data analysis as being pivotal to any of his decision-making. But we absolutely should be gathering data, analysing it and deciding if it’s relevant or could give us any form of competitive environment.
If I’d heard him in an interview saying that he’d signed player X or Y based on the data having never seen them play, or he’d made a substitution based on some in-game data the back room team had informed him of, or VK sat on the bench with his head in a laptop instead of being stood watching the match which he does every game, I could understand you having an issue with it. But that hasn’t happened, so I cannot understand at all why you would be in any way objectionable to us using modern techniques.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
Whatever their using it's not working imo, and making the game far more complicated than need be, needless to say the players most of the time look as though they haven't a clue what's going on, it's getting worse as the season progresses, and carry on this way those that think we're bouncing back up when relegated are deluded imo, but then we all have different opinions of course, but I reckon it will be harder 2nd time around.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:25 pmI think they are using analytic equipment, Pixellot, or similar. Cameras following each player.
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Re: Verbruggen Errors
That is exactly how we’ve signed players for this season.NewClaret wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:37 pmSo you agree that it should help inform decisions?
To do so, you have to analyse the data and report what it is saying. Thats what our bench were probably doing with their laptops out as well as probably communicating with those in the stands (VK has a team up there in the longside).
I think everyone’s agreed that data analytics has a role to play in modern sports in general and certainly in football. I never hear VK discuss data analysis as being pivotal to any of his decision-making. But we absolutely should be gathering data, analysing it and deciding if it’s relevant or could give us any form of competitive environment.
If I’d heard him in an interview saying that he’d signed player X or Y based on the data having never seen them play, or he’d made a substitution based on some in-game data the back room team had informed him of, or VK sat on the bench with his head in a laptop instead of being stood watching the match which he does every game, I could understand you having an issue with it. But that hasn’t happened, so I cannot understand at all why you would be in any way objectionable to us using modern techniques.
We are solely data driven on recruitment. 0 first team scouts