Dear PGMOL

[ralph8]

I must admit going back to our Dyche premier league days that I could not wait for VAR to come in to force and help the small clubs like us in major decision making, which more often than not at the time favoured the big clubs. How wrong was I.

[Bin Ont Turf]

We really don't help ourselves though.

Why is a player (Ramsey) taking a touch in the box when it's been played across right in the danger area? GET F***ING SHUT OF IT!

And the defending for their first was non existent.

The ref was a bit crap and VAR was as useless as ever, but with a bit better play and common sense from our lot, we'd have easily got something today.

[RammyClaret61]

I’ve no idea how anyone who understands football can’t see that is deliberate handball everyday of the week, and twice on Sundays.

The ball bounces off his thigh, goes behind him, he looks to see where it, and Foster are, then changes the direction of his arm movement to divert the ball away from Foster.

Anyone who sees something different needs to ring this number 01282 450045

[steve1264b]

VAR has now encouraged the gamester.

They feel contact, roll over like they are sn extra in Private Ryan and force a decision.

Is it a pen, in todays game probably but would VAR overturn it if he ignored it?

My problem is he saw the player rolling around in agony and GUESSED.

Howard Webb will say the system was perfect.

The handball was insulting, ok he missed it, it can happen but then we have the charade of VAR checking for a penalty. Everyone knew it was handball and a yellow but he couldnt do anything.

[quoonbeatz]

A new low today, that was completely indefensible. Corruption? Ineptitude? Both?

The standard of refereeing has never been worse and var has only compounded the problem. PGMOL can't sort it out because they are part of the problem. It needs a complete overhaul and Howard Webb isn't the man to do it because he's a referee. We need a complete reform that isn't them marking their own homework.
They're ruining the game (yes, along with cheating players) largely because they simply don't understand it.

[Roosterbooster]

You could potentially turn that on it’s head & ask every club throughout the PL & guaranteed they’d all state perceived injustices going against them.

You could. But I don't think we've won any points this season due to any borderline or generous refereeing/var decisions

[Jakubclaret]

You could. But I don't think we've won any points this season due to any borderline or generous refereeing/var decisions

We had 2 scrubbed off last game before last it made no odds any way. Usually when we do get beat the other team are more often than not well out of sight that a generous VAR call would be of little benefit anyway.

[bf2k]

clear and obvious.........

clear and obvious handball
clear and obvious incorrect award of a penalty - zero contact

It's just pure cheating. Name on the badge, no way that penalty gets given at the other end.

For the handball VAR can’t get involved because the ref never gave a foul and it was outside the penalty area. This is just **** poor officiating.

The penalty…God knows what the red sees and why VAR don’t ask him to take another look because there is minimal contact I don’t know.

The first yellow is laughable that the ref thinks that’s even a foul.
The second yellow is the only one which was correct.

The offside, when it’s that close it has to be guess work. When the ball is kicked. Getting the perfect camera angle to definitely say where the lines have to be drawn. The offside rule needs changing. Clear daylight is surely the way forward.

[dsr]

The handball was either the ref's incompetence at not seeing it or his buffoonery at thinking it wasn't handball. But as Foster got his shot in, the VAR man presumably decided that the handball hadn't stopped a goalscoring opportunity.

Berge's first booking was one of those where the ref plays advantage and it hasn't worked, so he goes back and books him because it makes him look good for spotting the foul. It was a nothing foul that wouldn't have been a booking normally. The second one isn't really arguable, some refs would book him, some wouldn't. It wasn't a "take one for the team" deliberate foul to stop a dangerous attack, which would always be a booking.

The penalty? Two players touched, one fell over with two broken legs, one didn't. Under PGMOL rules, if a defender and an attacker touch, it is the defender's fault, and if the attacker falls over, it is a foul. The VAR man may or may not have given a penalty off his own bat, having seen the replay, but on penalties that have been given, VAR are instructed to back up the referee unless there is no contact at all so that's what he did. The principle is that if there is a 1% chance that he was tripped and a 99% chance that he dived, the referee and player get the penalty - probably to reward the quality of the dive.

Remember, one of the primary purposes of VAR is to disallow goals that would have been given under the old rules - eg. Luton's disallowed goal today - and so they want VAR to compensate by giving penalties. Hence decisions like today. The man who didn't give anything for Koleosho's first against West Ham clearly hadn't read the script! But VAR bias is clearly for more penalties, not less.

In summary? VAR should be scrapped, it is useless. Let them have 18 months to think about it and bring it back if they can find a workable solution.

Even more important, the PGMOL should be scrapped. Everything they try to do to make things better, results in making it worse. The standard of refereeing in the PL is universally abysmal because the PGMOL has made it so.

And finally, whoever is responsible for the law changes needs sacking as well. Scrap them, shift the laws back in time 20 years to what they were then, and again, in 18 months set up a new body to change only what needs changing. How often have the offside law and the handball law changed in the past 20 years? And is it a ha'porth better? Not a bit of it. Instead of them saying "give us another go, we'll get it right at the twelfth time of asking", bin them, go back to the perceived wisdom of ages, and start afresh.

[Goody1975]

For the handball VAR can’t get involved because the ref never gave a foul and it was outside the penalty area. This is just **** poor officiating.

Yes it can, it checks all possible red card offences.

This was one.

[Roberts' Tash]

I'm perplexed as to why I see our players pulled back and shirts tugged every match I watch and it is rarely penalised. Maybe some refs are more relaxed about it but it is unfair that there is no consistency between matches or offenders. Either let every shirt pull go unpunished or penalize it. Maybe we just need to be smarter in working out which refs are card happy.

[quoonbeatz]

I didn't see it at the time but when he went back to book Berge for the first one, did he also book the Villa player for clattering Gudmundsson, which was a worse challenge than Berge's?

[ClaretTony]

I didn't see it at the time but when he went back to book Berge for the first one, did he also book the Villa player for clattering Gudmundsson, which was a worse challenge than Berge's?

He didn’t. Only one Villa yellow in the first half and that was much earlier.

[quoonbeatz]

Thought as much.

[Jakubclaret]

A bit of a conspiracy theory - I wondered if you ask a Sheff U or Luton fan whether they have had similar treatment this season as we have had today.

Aside of the career ending injury for the Sheffield United player I also forgot to mention a Luton player having an heart attack on the pitch if that isn’t bad luck for the 2 I don’t know what is.

[123EasyasBFC]

I didn't see it at the time but when he went back to book Berge for the first one, did he also book the Villa player for clattering Gudmundsson, which was a worse challenge than Berge's?

It was mcginn, he got booked for a similar challenge on brownhill in 94th minute, the first Berge booking is terrible from the ref. The Taylor booking in the first half diaby pushes delcroix before Taylor fouls him

[Ampth7]

I think the song has it spot on; f**k VAR! Personally, I f****ng HATE VAR! Not solely for how useless it is, but mainly because it rips away the joyful emotion you should get when your team scores a goal! Instead of celebrating a goal scored, my first reaction is, oh wait, VA f*****g R!!! Followed by 7 minutes of watching some useless tosser sat in a trailer trying to figure out how to draw a straight line on a computer!?!? It’s ruining the game and I’m sick of it! Get rid!!!!

[Vegas Claret]

For the handball VAR can’t get involved because the ref never gave a foul and it was outside the penalty area. This is just **** poor officiating.

it went to VAR !!!!!!!!!!

[mybloodisclaret]

Wasn't made clear on the screens it went to VAR like all the others today.

That was at best absolutely absymal officiating today, at worst something far more nefarious.

[mybloodisclaret]

IMG_1955.jpeg

Interesting lines here.....

Tell me, does the Villa player have an extremely flat toe ended boot on? As I certainly don't belive his foot ends there.

Further, what is that red line for?? Fosters foot is nowhere near it? The blue line doesn't therefore clear anything up.

@Rileybobs - you are a top poster, but how you can suggest that is anything other than a deliberate handball is crazy. I was on the second back row of the away section block 2 and saw 100% clearly at the time it was handball. That was horrendous from the officials today, I coach grassroots football and have seen better ref performances on Saturday mornings than that today.

[Rileybobs]

Interesting lines here.....

Tell me, does the Villa player have an extremely flat toe ended boot on? As I certainly don't belive his foot ends there.

Further, what is that red line for?? Fosters foot is nowhere near it? The blue line doesn't therefore clear anything up.

@Rileybobs - you are a top poster, but how you can suggest that is anything other than a deliberate handball is crazy. I was on the second back row of the away section block 2 and saw 100% clearly at the time it was handball. That was horrendous from the officials today, I coach grassroots football and have seen better ref performances on Saturday mornings than that today.

I think it was a handball and should have been a free kick. I just don’t think the Villa player intentionally handled it and don’t think him doing so prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity.

[mybloodisclaret]

I think it was a handball and should have been a free kick. I just don’t think the Villa player intentionally handled it and don’t think him doing so prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Fair enough Riley, certainly not looking to fall out. Your messages read to me like you didn't think it was a handball. It's all done now in any event. Thanks for the reply.

[bf2k]

it went to VAR !!!!!!!!!!

The handball didn’t I don’t think.

[Vegas Claret]

The handball didn’t I don’t think.

I'm 99.9% sure it did (be warned, I get tripped up by the .1% I swear never happened an awful lot ).

[Vegas Claret]

I think it was a handball and should have been a free kick. I just don’t think the Villa player intentionally handled it and don’t think him doing so prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity.

he literally scooped the ball away on purpose, it's blatant and a clear denial - red card

[Vegas Claret]

other than him catching the ball and playing rugby it's as deliberate as you can get
https://x.com/JJWatt/status/1741147269842583765?s=20

[Yorkshirelad]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ier-league

[Yorkshirelad]

Howard Webb instructions to var

[scouseclaret]

It’s pretty clear this hasn’t been happening - VAR officials still much more likely draw attention to soft contact when a penalty is not given than when it is.

Also interesting to learn that Stuart Attwell is a Luton fan…!

https://www.90min.com/posts/which-footb ... es-support

[claretspice]

I don't think the penalty is a pen - it is extremely soft - but it's not a clear and obvious error once given. Those decisions can and do get given (it is very similar to the free kick for a foul on Taylor that prevented a Liverpool goal on boxing day, which went our way).

The handball is very difficult I think. It's a clear free kick and yellow card minimum. Is it a red? Really subjective I think, for several reasons. Firstly Foster actually got a shot away so arguably wasn't denied a goalscoring opportunity. Secondly I think there's an argument the handball altered the trajectory of the ball to Foster's advantage- it pushed the ball away from the defender and so gave Foster an opportunity to get to it; had the handball not happened I think Foster still has to get round the defender which is not a given. Had a red been given on the pitch it would have stood but again I think VAR was right not to get involved. The comparison with Berge at Forest isn't really valid as all that tells you is either both or neither are a free kick (and if only one is, its the Villa one). We all knew the Forest decision was a wrong intervention by VAR but that doesn't mean there should be a red card yesterday.

Berge was stupid, twice. The first time I think he could easily have got away with it and I'm slightly amazed the ref went back that far for something a bit cynical but ultimately inconsequential. But he did and thereafter the second yellow is inevitable after a shirt pull.

Were we unlucky then? A bit. But luck is also of your own making. Duran wins the pen because he presses with real intensity to get the ball first. Ramsey isn't showing the same intensity and more unforgivable, nor his Tresor who does absolutely nothing to help his full back (who is on a yellow card). Had Tresor done more Duran's touch goes into an area that a Burnley shirt had covered (either Tresor himself, or Brownhill, who ends up dropping onto the near post precisely because Tresor isn't backing up Taylor). Its much easier for the ref to not give a pen if it isn't likely Villa get a shot away. (Query why Tresor is in front of Taylor given his work rate and the fact Taylor is booked- that is on VK).

Likewise if Berge works harder to get goalside for Villa's second goal, perhaps he doesn't panic and pull the shirt - because we're level and so there isn't the same jeopardy as there is when Luiz gets goalside and can put Villa 2 up.

It is very easy for Kompany to blame decisions and he has some justification. But he is (again) masking the fact that at crucial moments his players (agaim) showed a little less tenacity than our opponents.

[RVclaret]

I don't think then penalty is a pen - it is extremely soft - but it's not a clear and obvious error once given. Those decisions can and do get given.

The handball is very difficult I think. It's a clear free kick and yellow card minimum. Is it a red? Really subjective I think, for several reasons. Firstly Foster actually got a shot away so arguably wasn't denied a goalscoring opportunity. Secondly I think there's snow argument thr handball altered the trajectory of the ball to Foster's advantage- it pushed the ball away from the defender and so gave Foster an opportunity to get to it; had the handball not happened I think Foster still has to get round the defender which is not a given. Had a red been given on the pitch it would have stood but again I think VAR was right not to get involved. The comparison with Berge at Forest (which was wrong by the way) isn't really valid as all that tells you is both are a free kick.

Berge was stupid, twice. The first time I think he could easily have got away with it and I'm slightly amazed the ref went back that far for something a bit cynical but ultimately inconsequential. But he did and thereafter the second yellow is inevitable after a shirt pull.

We're we unlucky then? A bit. But luck is also of your own making. Duran wins the pen because he presses with real intensity to get the ball first. Ramsey isn't showing the same intensity and more unforgivable, nor his Tresor who does absolutely nothing to help his full back (who is on a yellow card). Had Tresor done more Duran's touch goes into an area that a Burnley shirt had covered (either Tresor himself, or Brownhill, who ends up dropping onto the near post precisely because Tresor isn't backing up Taylor). Its much easier for the ref to not give a pen if it isn't likely Villa get a shot away. (Query why Tresor is in front of Taylor given his work rate and the fact Taylor is booked- that is on VK(

Likewise if Berge works harder to get goalside for Villa's second goal, perhaps he doesn't panic and pull the shirt - because we're level and so there isn't the same jeopardy as there is when Luiz gets goalside and can put Villa 2 up.

It is very easy for Kompany to blame decisions and he has some justification. But he is (again) masking the fact that at crucial moments his players (agaim) showed a little less tenacity than our opponents.

If you look two posts above yours, you will see direction from Howard Webb that it doesn’t have to be clear and obvious for VAR to intervene when there is minimal contact.

It’s no surprise to see you try your upmost best to defend an abysmal refereeing performance.

[TheFamilyCat]

Interesting lines here.....

Tell me, does the Villa player have an extremely flat toe ended boot on? As I certainly don't belive his foot ends there.

Further, what is that red line for?? Fosters foot is nowhere near it? The blue line doesn't therefore clear anything up.

To be fair, the offside shouldn't be a talking point. Amdouni should have played Foster in while he was still in our half. An unnecessary extra touch cost us there.

[claretspice]

If you look two posts above yours, you will see direction from Howard Webb that it doesn’t have to be clear and obvious for VAR to intervene when there is minimal contact.

It’s no surprise to see you try your upmost best to defend an abysmal refereeing performance.

You missed the bit when I said it wasn't a pen. As for minimal contact - perhaps VAR can intervene but per my update to the post which I think came after you replied, that also means we're 2-0 down against Liverpool after 30 minutes. I also don't think either is as egregious an example of minimal contact as the Sheff U v Wolves one etc. where the contact was essentially non-existent. And again, if Tresor works harder and crowds the space, it makes it much easier for VAR or Atwell to view it as a dive.

[Hibsclaret]

If that pen is at the other end it doesn’t get given by Attwell and then VAR go with the onfield decision (no pen). If you support Luton and you clearly want Villa to win the game you give the onfield decision so that VAR have to go with it (pen). Same incident, 2 different outcomes depending on who you want to win the game.

For Berge’s first booking if it’s a Villa player you don’t go back and book him. If it’s a Burnley player you do as it disadvantages a team you want to lose.

As for blaming others for not tracking back when a player has a touch like a barge pole rather than clear it in his box with first touch, that’s nonsense. Sometimes you have to get shut immediately and the same player has cost us a few times now by dithering in dangerous areas.

[Rileybobs]

he literally scooped the ball away on purpose, it's blatant and a clear denial - red card

I think the video shows that he didn’t scoop the ball on purpose. Unless you think he’s got eyes in the back of his head and superhuman reactions.

[quoonbeatz]

I don't think then penalty is a pen - it is extremely soft - but it's not a clear and obvious error once given.

Sorry spice, its 100% the epitome of a clear and obvious error. You can slightly excuse Attwell for giving it in real time (but not much given his positioning) but anyone who has ever played football knows, whether they admit it or not, that Duran has dived and simulated injury to win a penalty.

Ever been kicked on the bottom of your football boot? They're made of molded plastic, you hardly feel it. You certainly dont plant your foot then collapse like you were shot in the back and roll around hding your foot. There was no force behind it - it's not a kick, it's not a trip, it's minimal contact. VAR should be straight on to that saying you need to look at this again because he's conned you. Why are they so scared of doing that?

We have to stop excusing cheating and excusing the officials who facilitate it. They are ruining the game. Mainly because the officials don't understand it.

[claretspice]

If that pen is at the other end it doesn’t get given by Attwell and then VAR go with the onfield decision (no pen). If you support Luton and you clearly want Villa to win the game you give the onfield decision so that VAR have to go with it (pen). Same incident, 2 different outcomes depending on who you want to win the game.

For Berge’s first booking if it’s a Villa player you don’t go back and book him. If it’s a Burnley player you do as it disadvantages a team you want to lose.

As for blaming others for not tracking back when a player has a touch like a barge pole rather than clear it in his box with first touch, that’s nonsense. Sometimes you have to get shut immediately and the same player has cost us a few times now by dithering in dangerous areas.

Yeah I don't think impugning Atwell's integrity is acceptable, personally. Debate his decision making by all means.

As for blaming Burnley players - I criticised Ramsey. His touch and demeanour are too laid back. He doesn't match Duran's intensity and he can and should get rid first time. But Tresor's failure to work for the team in the first place is a factor - and as Dyche rightly said, maximum effort is the minimum requirement.

[claretspice]

Sorry spice, its 100% the epitome of a clear and obvious error. You can slightly excuse Attwell for giving it in real time (but not much given his positioning) but anyone who has ever played football knows, whether they admit it or not, that Duran has dived and simulated injury to win a penalty.

Ever been kicked on the bottom of your football boot? They're made of molded plastic, you hardly feel it. You certainly dont plant your foot then collapse like you were shot in the back and roll around hding your foot. There was no force behind it - it's not a kick, it's not a trip, it's minimal contact. VAR should be straight on to that saying you need to look at this again because he's conned you. Why are they so scared of doing that?

We have to stop excusing cheating and excusing the officials who facilitate it. They are ruining the game. Mainly because the officials don't understand it.

I understand that view and broadly sympathise. But I think it starts by encouraging refs not to give them in real time when they are so soft. Which feels like an unravelling of several years worth of trends and so a bigger point of realignment. I don't think the way that was handled yesterday is inconsistent with thr prevailing approach - and as I say it is consistent with the Taylor decision on boxing day which was pretty similar. Should VAR have intervened to allow that goal?

[aggi]

I don't think the penalty is a pen - it is extremely soft - but it's not a clear and obvious error once given.

But clear and obvious isn't a thing anymore. It may get trotted out every so often but it's not the reality.

If they only adjudicated on clear and obvious errors there would be no need to wait for ages whilst multiple slow motion replays are reviewed.

It's virtually impossible to reconcile clear and obvious errors with the ref going over to the screen to review, "We've seen a clear and obvious error but we're not sure about it so you'll need to double check it ...".

[claretspice]

But clear and obvious isn't a thing anymore. It may get trotted out every so often but it's not the reality.

If they only adjudicated on clear and obvious errors there would be no need to wait for ages whilst multiple slow motion replays are reviewed.

It's virtually impossible to reconcile clear and obvious errors with the ref going over to the screen to review, "We've seen a clear and obvious error but we're not sure about it so you'll need to double check it ...".

We're into the existential question of what is VAR for. I want fewer interneventions, not more, and I want them quicker. So I want a high bar for VAR. Call it what you will.

I also want a presumption dives don't win penalties but they are separate and compatible points - the on field ref just needs to know that call will be backed by VAR and the authorities.

As ever though, this is a distraction. Start by getting our own house in order. We did not work hard enough or aggressively enough in critical moments. The refereeing calls are secondary to that.

[quoonbeatz]

Should VAR have intervened to allow that goal?

Yes. We want the right decision, even if its against us. That has to be the aim and if we're going to persist with var that has to be the approach.

[claretspice]

Yes. We want the right decision, even if its against us. That has to be the aim and if we're going to persist with var that has to be the approach.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on that. But sounds like we're also agreeing that there's a consistency of approach across the two incidents which presumably is the minimum requirement.

[CombatClaret]

I'll probably get shouted down for this.

The problem with slowing down the shot and isolating the moment of contact is that it assigns far too much motive to the player when their body is already in a pattern of motion; running at speed.
We run with our legs and arms in opposition, as one leg comes forward the opposite arm goes back and vice versa. Remember the players are already in this state, with momentum.

The villa player is already in full stride, in an attempt to play the ball he extends his left knee higher and opens his body further extending his left arm backward beyond it's natural running gait
At this point here, while running, there is nowhere else the arm can go but forward. Remove the ball entirely, his arm is still coming forward.

Inevitably as the ball makes contact with his knee he simultaneously pushes off with his right leg his left arm MUST come forward, there is no other place it can go and no way to continue running without the arm coming forward. It's biomechanics happening unconsciously in fractions of a second.

The villa player is not looking at the ball when contact is made, he does not entirely know where is it.

I'm not saying a penalty should or shouldn't have been given, I'm just saying I don't think it was deliberate handball because of how the human body works.

[Rowls]

As for blaming Burnley players - I criticised Ramsey. His touch and demeanour are too laid back. He doesn't match Duran's intensity and he can and should get rid first time. But Tresor's failure to work for the team in the first place is a factor - and as Dyche rightly said, maximum effort is the minimum requirement.

The days of us tracking runners are long gone. Only yesterday Odobert, Brownhill, Trésor and Berge were all guilty of it. Maybe a few more.

Ramsey certainly lacked the kind of urgency and sense of danger but again the whole team are now guilty of this when it comes to defending.

In short, it's not an issue of individual errors; it's a general inability to defend. The finger of blame lies with the coaching team.

Mile Jackson bears the title of defensive coach. The buck stops and rests with Kompany.

[Rileybobs]

I'll probably get shouted down for this.

The problem with slowing down the shot and isolating the moment of contact is that it assigns far too much motive to the player when their body is already in a pattern of motion; running at speed.
We run with our legs and arms in opposition, as one leg comes forward the opposite arm goes back and vice versa. Remember the players are already in this state, with momentum.

The villa player is already in full stride, in an attempt to play the ball he extends his left knee higher and opens his body further extending his left arm backward beyond it's natural running gait
At this point here, while running, there is nowhere else the arm can go but forward. Remove the ball entirely, his arm is still coming forward.

Inevitably as the ball makes contact with his knee he simultaneously pushes off with his right leg his left arm MUST come forward, there is no other place it can go and no way to continue running without the arm coming forward. It's biomechanics happening unconsciously in fractions of a second.

The villa player is not looking at the ball when contact is made, he does not entirely know where is it.

I'm not saying a penalty should or shouldn't have been given, I'm just saying I don't think it was deliberate handball because of how the human body works.

Very well put.

[Big Vinny K]

“Clear and obvious” ironically has become one of the most confusing and ambiguous things about VAR.
It’s an absolute farce with so much inconsistency and subjectiveness.

Take our penalty back to the very basics and the only think that is 100% clear and obvious is that you cannot fall on to the ground and roll around in the way he did as a result of the contact he had.

If you start with that as a premise then it follows on that the player was cheating and that should then over ride any contact and no penalty should be awarded.

Of course there would be still subjectiveness in reaching that decision but if players knew that diving or exaggerating impact was fruitless (or even better led to a red card) then you would cut a lot of it out.

[claretspice]

The days of us tracking runners are long gone. Only yesterday Odobert, Brownhill, Trésor and Berge were all guilty of it. Maybe a few more.

Ramsey certainly lacked the kind of urgency and sense of danger but again the whole team are now guilty of this when it comes to defending.

In short, it's not an issue of individual errors; it's a general inability to defend. The finger of blame lies with the coaching team.

Mile Jackson bears the title of defensive coach. The buck stops and rests with Kompany.

I think that is fair.

[Hibsclaret]

Yeah I don't think impugning Atwell's integrity is acceptable, personally. Debate his decision making by all means.

As for blaming Burnley players - I criticised Ramsey. His touch and demeanour are too laid back. He doesn't match Duran's intensity and he can and should get rid first time. But Tresor's failure to work for the team in the first place is a factor - and as Dyche rightly said, maximum effort is the minimum requirement.

That pen is nothing to do with Tresor, so no factor. If Ramsey’s first touch is a clearance out of the box it’s no issue.

As for integrity of the ref I was at Fulham and saw how a game should be refereed with integrity by the lady in charge. There would be no discussion around integrity if every game was refereed like that. I stand by the fact that he booked our player and not theirs for similar incidents. That wasn’t the case at Fulham.

[claretspice]

That pen is nothing to do with Tresor, so no factor. If Ramsey’s first touch is a clearance out of the box it’s no issue.

As for integrity of the ref I was at Fulham and saw how a game should be refereed with integrity by the lady in charge. There would be no discussion around integrity if every game was refereed like that. I stand by the fact that he booked our player and not theirs for similar incidents. That wasn’t the case at Fulham.

If Tresor does his job the cross doesn't come in or get to Ramsey so the naive touch is a non issue. I don't understand why we're forgiving players such a basic lack of diligence.

I think the point about integrity is misguided and wrong as I said.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I don’t get some of the chat on here aimed at sparing the referee by blaming poor play by us.

Taylor - shouldn’t have been booked initially due to the Villa foul first, which affected him stopping the player running around him, he’d have pulled him otherwise
Tresor - was covering the cut inside, whereas the player went down the line and around Taylor, and Tresor was in the perfect position for Ramsay to first touch pass to him (Ramsay big error obvs)
Berge - 2nd booking was silly, but 1st wasn’t a yellow, just watched it again, joke decision and distracted him by telling him he was about to be booked just as he needed to pick up a runner for the 2nd goal
Foster - he didn’t get a proper shot in, he could only flick it with the outside of his foot, may not have been a VAR red but was obvious free kick and yellow which Attwell, on his clear side, and lineman should never have missed
Ramsey - big error but didn’t foul him, as per Webb guidance to VAR about insufficient contact, huge error by Bankes in VAR and by Attwell in giving it

We can look at our players for not being perfect until the cows come home but appalling refereeing and Villa cheating (encouraged by a manager who is one of the worst at it) cost us at least a draw and maybe a win. Simple as that.

You know, when we get refereeing atrocities at Forest, Bournemouth and Villa (there were things at Wolves too but those three definitely affected the outcome of the game), along with the nightmare home run of fixtures up to New Year, it gives us almost no chance in this league. It’s been a disgrace and unforgivable. Feel sorry for Kompany. This follows of course our eons under Dyche without a penalty and what happened at Villa and at Spurs under Jackson to help relegate us.

The whole thing is institutionally corrupt and designed to favour the big boys, including the need for 14 votes to change anything rather than a simple majority.