Where did it all go wrong?

[NewClaret]

That he isn't getting many minutes for the team at the top of that league doesn't make your point though. If he was playing regularly not really contributing, you might have some evidence.

Well my point is that there’s zero evidence base he would’ve made a difference. To be honest I’m not even sure if he were banging them in in the Bundesliga it’d provide an evidence base (Weghorst has a good record in the Bundesliga), but the fact he’s not being picked in that league (a worse league) is telling in my opinion.

[NewClaret]

He played in the PL at a young age for Southampton though and never really had an extended run in the side.

It’s like saying Odobert isn’t up to it because he only got 4 goals for Troyes in Ligue Un.

He had a break out season with us and was instrumental to our success - led the press incredibly well and gave us an in behind threat if teams tried to press us higher up the pitch.

It was just a good fit - we’re desperately missing him on the right.

That isn’t a slight at some of the young lads we’ve signed btw, just is what it is. I think Tella would have gotten 5-10 goals for us this season no problem.

The reason he’s the loanee I’d most like to have signed is because I don’t really think we’ve adequately replaced him on the right. JBL indifferent. All brought in to focus as Benson is injured. Yet we seem to have an embarrassment of riches on the left.

I think he’d have featured a lot on that basis and his pace would’ve been useful to play on the counter.

But my points are still true - we have no evidence he’d be helping because he’s unproven at this level, not playing for the team he signed for, scored most of his Champ goals vs bottom half/lower teams and at €23m was way out of our price range so not signable anyway.

[CoolClaret]

The reason he’s the loanee I’d most like to have signed is because I don’t really think we’ve adequately replaced him on the right. JBL indifferent. All brought in to focus as Benson is injured. Yet we seem to have an embarrassment of riches on the left.

I think he’d have featured a lot on that basis and his pace would’ve been useful to play on the counter.

But my points are still true - we have no evidence he’d be helping because he’s unproven at this level, not playing for the team he signed for, scored most of his Champ goals vs bottom half/lower teams and at €23m was way out of our price range so not signable anyway.

I mean - this has been done to death really; I still believe he was available for cheaper than what he ended up going for earlier in the window - the Maatsen bid should we were prepared to push the finances as well.

For €23 I may not have pushed the boat out that much, but given that we did spend a fair bit I still think he’s a huge miss.

Don’t agree with your assessment on most of his goals being against teams at the bottom of the Champ either.

Assisted against Sheff U and Boro in the run in, important goals dotted throughout the season and bagging a hattrick away at Hull (tough place to go) and against the Nobbers at home is pretty legendary.

It is what it is anyway. I’d still love to sign him. Superb attitude and really endeared himself to the fans. Will always be a claret for me!

[Vegas Claret]

Little bit disingenuous that Vegas -

The QPR defeat and Rotherham draw came with a more rotated side after we had just piss3d the league.

At our best in sort of Jan-March we were steam rolling everybody.

last minute goal to beat the mighty Rotherham at the Turf.............nothing disingenuous about it, facts are facts

[Westleigh]

As Dobbo use to say, play with a Chuckle in your boots

Wasn’t it Stan who said that?

[quoonbeatz]

Well my point is that there’s zero evidence base he would’ve made a difference. To be honest I’m not even sure if he were banging them in in the Bundesliga it’d provide an evidence base (Weghorst has a good record in the Bundesliga), but the fact he’s not being picked in that league (a worse league) is telling in my opinion.

There's zero logic there though. The league is irrelevant. You might as well say he's not being picked for Real Madrid in la liga or psg in ligue un, both worse leagues than the PL. It's the team that's important, not the league. Just because he's not starting for a better team than Burnley doesn't mean he wouldn't be making a difference here.

[CoolClaret]

last minute goal to beat the mighty Rotherham at the Turf.............nothing disingenuous about it, facts are facts

So one game that was before our mad run?

Your post inferred like we scabbed it often - only 3 defeats all year!

[bfcjg]

The touch screens.

[claretspice]

When we started signing players who do not match the intensity of their opponents - and tolerating that deficit: for all the furore over decisions, this was the story of Villa's second goal (Berge) and third (Tresor especially for a total absence of support to Taylor, but also Ramsey whose first touch is far too languid, again).

[winsomeyen]

Wasn’t it Stan who said that?

No it was Harry Potts

[Big Vinny K]

Well my point is that there’s zero evidence base he would’ve made a difference. To be honest I’m not even sure if he were banging them in in the Bundesliga it’d provide an evidence base (Weghorst has a good record in the Bundesliga), but the fact he’s not being picked in that league (a worse league) is telling in my opinion.

Guessing you have not seen Bayer Lev this season. Unbeaten all season, averaging nearly 3 goals game, best defence in the league etc etc.
They are 4 points ahead of Bayern Munich who would (and do) beat the majority of teams in the EPL.
There are plenty of players in the EPL who would be on the bench with Tella most weeks if they were at Bayer Lev.

So whilst you are correct that there is no evidence that Tella is good enough for the EPL it’s also true that being on the bench for Bayer is not really evidence to support an opinion that he isn’t good enough.

IMHO if we would have had Tella this season I think we would be better off as a team for a number of reasons

[NewClaret]

There's zero logic there though. The league is irrelevant. You might as well say he's not being picked for Real Madrid in la liga or psg in ligue un, both worse leagues than the PL. It's the team that's important, not the league. Just because he's not starting for a better team than Burnley doesn't mean he wouldn't be making a difference here.

My main point is not about whether he’s started or not at BL. I have two points really:

1. Firstly, that he’s neither proved himself in the Premier League or the Bundesliga level despite opportunities. As such, we have no evidence base that he’d be materially impacting our season. He may well ultimately do so at Bundesliga level, and at a team like BL I’d expect he will, but I’d still argue that doesn’t prove he’d impact us as a) Bundesliga isn’t the same level as the Prem and b) BL are clearly playing at a higher level than us and are competing at the top of that league so you’d expect him to be getting more chances and better quality service.

2. He cost €23m so completely pointless saying we should’ve signed him when we didn’t sign anyone for that kind of money. We obviously wanted him but bidding clearly got beyond our budget. So a bit pointless saying we should’ve signed him (or THB, who Soton had to commit £20m to loan if promoted).

I’ve said a few times, of the trio we didn’t sign he’d be the one I’d have liked the most. I’m just not convinced we’d be in a much different position.

[Big Vinny K]

My main point is not about whether he’s started or not at BL. I have two points really:

1. Firstly, that he’s neither proved himself in the Premier League or the Bundesliga level despite opportunities. As such, we have no evidence base that he’d be materially impacting our season. He may well ultimately do so at Bundesliga level, and at a team like BL I’d expect he will, but I’d still argue that doesn’t prove he’d impact us as a) Bundesliga isn’t the same level as the Prem and b) BL are clearly playing at a higher level than us and are competing at the top of that league so you’d expect him to be getting more chances and better quality service.

2. He cost €23m so completely pointless saying we should’ve signed him when we didn’t sign anyone for that kind of money. We obviously wanted him but bidding clearly got beyond our budget. So a bit pointless saying we should’ve signed him (or THB, who Soton had to commit £20m to loan if promoted).

I’ve said a few times, of the trio we didn’t sign he’d be the one I’d have liked the most. I’m just not convinced we’d be in a much different position.

He cost about £20m and what we paid for Tresor and Trafford is not a million miles away from that fee and we reportedly bid a lot more than that for Maatsen.
To say that kind of price was out of our range or budget given what we spent in the summer is clearly wrong.

We may not have valued him at that price which is different but even then when you look at the price we have paid for other players with less experience than Tella it’s still feels pretty unclear to me why we did not bring Tella back.

Harwood Bellis also seems a lost opportunity tbh - especially with the hindsight of the issues we have had in defence with injuries and poor form. Again a loan with an option to buy at £20m does not seem out of our range given what we spent in the summer. If it is accurate that Southampton had to commit to buy if promoted then it sounds like we could have done a similar deal if we avoided relegation.

Of course there may be loads of reasons we will never be party to as to why the deals did not happen. But on the face of it not getting Tella and THB and looking at some of the players we did spend the equivalent kind of money on is not looking great business at the moment.

[boatshed bill]

Posters go on about us not signing Tella in particular plus Maatsen and Harwood-Bellis.
Did Tella express any wish to stay with Burnley?
Did Maatsen?
I thought we'd have signed HB, but there must be a reason no PL club has shown interest.

[ksrclaret]

When we started signing players who do not match the intensity of their opponents - and tolerating that deficit: for all the furore over decisions, this was the story of Villa's second goal (Berge) and third (Tresor especially for a total absence of support to Taylor, but also Ramsey whose first touch is far too languid, again).

Spot on

[claptrappers_union]

Players aren't going to express interest in which clubs they want to play for because where they play their football is out of their hands.

It's just business, and I don't know why fans take it so personally

[Big Vinny K]

Posters go on about us not signing Tella in particular plus Maatsen and Harwood-Bellis.
Did Tella express any wish to stay with Burnley?
Did Maatsen?
I thought we'd have signed HB, but there must be a reason no PL club has shown interest.

Who knows what goes on with players and their agents ? We know that there is very little loyalty to clubs these days.
I do think though that Tella and THB both loved it at Burnley and both did enjoy the best season of their careers. I think that’s why you would think that they would have liked to return and also work with VK.
But with the amounts of money we are talking here and potentially the first big financial deal for both players they have to do what’s right for them and any sentiment, loyalty and however much they enjoyed last season goes out of the window if another club has a better deal on the table.

Maatsen I think was in a different situation. He seemed to have positive assurances from Chelsea that he would be involved in the first team this season and he has been. His contract situation also meant that if he wants to leave Chelsea next year he is in a very strong position. So with all this I do not think he wanted to come to Burnley in the summer. And with the likes of Dortmund now interested in him it looks like he’s made a wise decision.

[Boss Hogg]

No it wouldn't. It would be about where we are.

Possibly but possibly not. The team harmony is not the same with certain players dropped before they’ve been given a chance at this level. Whereas other players who are clearly not good enough ( yet) are being given game time. We’d also have saved circa £100 million. The transfer window and team selections from the off have been a f**k up no matter how you try and dress it up. I think both the board and the manager are incredibly naive.

[JohnMac]

It's only gone wrong if the Board think that's the case. Maybe they see the potential of the young crop of players as a better long term solution than having ageing experience with no resale value. Also older player 'demand' more money than young potential and not all are willing to go the extra yard.

Maybe, just maybe, the vision is to produce a squad of young hungry players to develop whilst maintaining Premier League status and then adopt a sell and replace policy.

I don't think anyone could achieve that overnight but possibly could in a season or so. Short term gain isn't always the correct answer.

Regardless if stay up or not, the real support will stick with it.

UTC

[Newcastleclaret93]

It's only gone wrong if the Board think that's the case. Maybe they see the potential of the young crop of players as a better long term solution than having ageing experience with no resale value. Also older player 'demand' more money than young potential and not all are willing to go the extra yard.

Maybe, just maybe, the vision is to produce a squad of young hungry players to develop whilst maintaining Premier League status and then adopt a sell and replace policy.

I don't think anyone could achieve that overnight but possibly could in a season or so. Short term gain isn't always the correct answer.

Regardless if stay up or not, the real support will stick with it.

UTC

Not a dig but has any club been successful doing that? I genuinely can’t think of one

[NewClaret]

He cost about £20m and what we paid for Tresor and Trafford is not a million miles away from that fee and we reportedly bid a lot more than that for Maatsen.
To say that kind of price was out of our range or budget given what we spent in the summer is clearly wrong.

We may not have valued him at that price which is different but even then when you look at the price we have paid for other players with less experience than Tella it’s still feels pretty unclear to me why we did not bring Tella back.

Harwood Bellis also seems a lost opportunity tbh - especially with the hindsight of the issues we have had in defence with injuries and poor form. Again a loan with an option to buy at £20m does not seem out of our range given what we spent in the summer. If it is accurate that Southampton had to commit to buy if promoted then it sounds like we could have done a similar deal if we avoided relegation.

Of course there may be loads of reasons we will never be party to as to why the deals did not happen. But on the face of it not getting Tella and THB and looking at some of the players we did spend the equivalent kind of money on is not looking great business at the moment.

I honestly didn’t rate THB anywhere near as many on here, and thought actually our form and results picked up after he got injured and dropped off a bit on his return. He may well go on and make it - I think there’s a decent chance he will - but also note no other PL clubs came in for him so it remains to be seen. I’ll follow it closely because I’ll always massively respect and thank him for what he did for us - joining early and taking the chance on us.

Re: Tella, it’s hard to say whether we could afford it as we don’t know the nature and structure of the deals we did vs what Southampton were asking. What we do know is that Tresor, Trafford (pre-add ons), Amdouni, Berge & Ramsay were in the £14-12m category so perhaps pushing that £6m extra was just too far or would’ve prohibited a purchase Vinny wanted more. Maybe Maatsen, who we were still in for after Tella went there. Also Matt Williams said in his interview that he had to tell Vinny a few times that we couldn’t afford players, one of which might’ve been Tella (or THB).

Overall, I don’t think we’d be in a massively better position than we are now.

[JohnMac]

Not a dig but has any club been successful doing that? I genuinely can’t think of one

I think Brentford and Brighton make a good fist of it as a modern example.

I think it's the radical change we are undergoing that has fans having polar opposite thoughts.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I think Brentford and Brighton make a good fist of it as a modern example.

I think it's the radical change we are undergoing that has fans having polar opposite thoughts.

Tbf neither of them are examples of the model we are following

[JohnMac]

Tbf neither of them are examples of the model we are following

Maybe not directly but you have to find a starting point and we are doing that now. Our recruitment is definitely better now the net has widened beyond the UK and Ireland.

Not all will be a success but I believe we have some real talent on board now and the development under VK and co will hopefully set us up better than previously.

It would be good to strengthen with the odd older head obviously so January will test that theory.

[HahaYeah]

It's Vincent Kompany that got us into this mess.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

It's Vincent Kompany that got us into this mess.

He’s the best thing that ever happened to Burnley

[RVclaret]

It's Vincent Kompany that got us into this mess.

Mess? Got us competing in the best league in the world with £135m of revenue coming into the club this season? Attracted and recruited some of Europe’s most exciting young players? If that’s a mess I do wonder how you’d cope if we ever go back to the Cotterill days (or before).

[ClaretPete001]

Maybe not directly but you have to find a starting point and we are doing that now. Our recruitment is definitely better now the net has widened beyond the UK and Ireland.

Not all will be a success but I believe we have some real talent on board now and the development under VK and co will hopefully set us up better than previously.

It would be good to strengthen with the odd older head obviously so January will test that theory.

Our recruitment has improved because we spent £97 million in the summer.

VK started off the season only playing AL Dhakil and Roberts from the side that won the Championship.

Foster aside most of the players favoured in the early part of the season were bought in the summer. So, VK himself didn't see last year's squad as good enough to improve even though we won the EFL at a canter with over 100 points. Ironically, the two he did pick no longer play and along with Zaroury have seemingly fallen off a cliff in terms of performance and confidence.

There has been no real improvement in tactics either other than a shift to a more formal 4-4-2 and the return to the team of more experienced players like Brownhill and Taylor. However, I don't think we have either the defensive players or the midfielders to make a genuine 4-4-2.

I think Zaroury, Benson, Maatsen and Tella are clever players suited to last year's system but Odebert, Kolosheo and Amdouni are more powerful players more suited to the PL. So, I see a confused squad that no longer really fits the tactical formations. A likely consequence of buying too many players too quickly.

So, those are the 3 key reasons (1) not enough investment two years ago, which left too much to do with too many loanees and the old PL squad into their mid 30s (2) Tactical naivety from from VK who selected the wrong sides and poor tactical formations for far too long at the start of the season and (3) we do not have a complete squad missing players in key areas.

On the plus side I think the players have been magnificent in a season, which they could have been forgiven for hiding- they haven't and continue to show a lot of skills despite the above.

Overall, I don't think it is rocket science. ALK have an ambitious project, which was likely to suffer these issues. The question is whether they can overcome them or not and none of us have a crystal ball.

[HahaYeah]

Mess? Got us competing in the best league in the world with £135m of revenue coming into the club this season? Attracted and recruited some of Europe’s most exciting young players? If that’s a mess I do wonder how you’d cope if we ever go back to the Cotterill days (or before).

I'm just being sarcy.

I'm bemused with the premature defeatism on here.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I'm just being sarcy.

I'm bemused with the premature defeatism on here.

We’ll have Aaron Ramsey in the engine room next season no need to worry

[HahaYeah]

I'm not worried buddy.

These are some of the best days ever to be a Claret,enjoy it while you can!

We are a little town team in the best league in the World.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Spot on

All 3 goals highlighted the lack of intensity in winning the ball back. The first one Watkins ghosts past O’Shea with Berge or Brownhill both ambling back into the box failing to get any sort of challenge in.

[Stayingup]

Higher if we'd signed Tella and THB plus experience.

Thats what the OP is saying. A few seem to disagree but its a moot point anyway.

[ksrclaret]

All 3 goals highlighted the lack of intensity in winning the ball back. The first one Watkins ghosts past O’Shea with Berge or Brownhill both ambling back into the box failing to get any sort of challenge in.

Some serious work needed on the training ground in terms of defensive shape, organisation, and intensity.

It’s basic stuff that should be drilled into every player regardless of ability.

[RVclaret]

Some serious work needed on the training ground in terms of defensive shape, organisation, and intensity.

It’s basic stuff that should be drilled into every player regardless of ability.

A bit harsh imo. I feel the defensive shape, since shifting to a 4-4-2 off the ball structure, has improved significantly and we’ve looked far more solid than early season. Teams haven’t really been ripping us open (1st half vs Liverpool maybe an exception) which suggests the organisation, in general, has been there. I think a better way to put it is making sure it’s there for 100% of games and not switching off in key moments, but it’s easier said than done at this level, particularly without any genuine experienced PL players in the spine.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I'm not worried buddy.

These are some of the best days ever to be a Claret,enjoy it while you can!

We are a little town team in the best league in the World.

I preferred it when we weren’t all but relegated by Christmas to be honest.

2017-18 sticks out

[ksrclaret]

A bit harsh imo. I feel the defensive shape, since shifting to a 4-4-2 off the ball structure, has improved significantly and we’ve looked far more solid than early season. Teams haven’t really been ripping us open (1st half vs Liverpool maybe an exception) which suggests the organisation, in general, has been there. I think a better way to put it is making sure it’s there for 100% of games and not switching off in key moments, but it’s easier said than done at this level, particularly without any genuine experienced PL players in the spine.

It’s certainly improved since the first couple of months but that’s a low bar indeed.

There is still way more work needed on the defensive stuff.

[Wokingclaret]

No it was Harry Potts

Yes, Dobbo was referring to Harry when he said it

[HahaYeah]

Stan used to say it a lot.