Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[turbo5]

Did anyone watch the first episode on ITV last night ? A TV series based on a true story about sub postmasters being prosecuted and jailed for fraud and theft since the introduction of a Fujitso Horizon IT system.
Ended up watching all 4 Episodes on ITVX last night.
I had only seen news clips of this scandal and never really understood the details other than people had been being jailed, some had committed suicide, and others losing everything due to a computer system error that the Post Office denied existed . (multiple cover ups)

I wont spoil it for those who haven't watched it but definitely edge of your seat viewing and hard to watch without getting engrossed, it's like a horrible nightmare where nobody believes you. Over 700 prosecutions, hundreds jailed etc and the people at the top of the Post Office and Fujitso have never been charged or prosecuted , in fact the lady in charge of the PO actually got a CBE and whopping pay out for her services . They have dragged this out for over 20 years , lots of people have already died it appears they are hoping most people die off and it can be swept under the carpet in years to come. The programme left me livid with little confidence in our legal system and our government for not getting involved earlier. Surprisingly a few office parties during Covid appears to be more urgent.

[Spijed]

Plenty of people must have know they were totally innocent.

And if there was any justice some of them should be serving very long prison sentences.

[Caballo]

Toby Jones is outstanding in pretty much everything he does, only watched the 1st episode , but it didn't disappoint.

[ksrclaret]

Watched episode 1 last night and I found it a really difficult watch. The actors portrayed the helplessness of the situation incredibly well.

The whole situation absolutely stinks and it's cost livelihoods and lives.

[Eloise Laws]

Watched 2 episodes on ITVX last night and we’ll finish it tonight. Left me feeling that my thinking that the world is run totally on corruption lies and deceit is true.
A hard watch to think ordinary people can be treated like this.

[Jakubclaret]

Plenty of people must have know they were totally innocent.

And if there was any justice some of them should be serving very long prison sentences.

I'd hardly call that justice some might be inclined to say that would be luxurious but that's probably another debate for another day.

[Herts Clarets]

700 people prosecuted. Surely alarm bells would ring that such a number of SPMs were all committing the same crime? How many were prosecuted annually before the introduction of the faulty IT system? Something i will be watching but it sounds to me to be one of the biggest scandals in recent times.

[Quickenthetempo]

I haven't watched this yet, but I remember talking to a family friend who works in a local Post Office a few years ago.
Her mum was the post master and was having to put her own wages into cover the errors that the system was creating.

They simply refused to believe their system could be wrong.

I'm so happy they got found out in the end. It was awful how they treat people.

[Bosscat]

Very good ... watched 1st episode last night

[lakedistrictclaret]

It's excellent isn't it. I don't think I'll binge it, I'll watch it night by night.
I represented a lovely lady who ran a sub-postoffice in West Cumbria on an interview by Post Office investigators. I'd been going into her post office for years and the idea of her being dishonest was laughable. Her alleged shortfall was hundreds rather than thousands, and she was never charged, but I remember how devastated she was.

[Cirrus_Minor]

I watched it as well. Followed the issue in media for a few years now. Absolutely appalling injustice on many innocent people and demonstrates just how easily they were prepared to use all their powers to crush these people. They must have known all along that the Horizon computer system was faulty, even prepared to lie, saying that they were the only person who had a problem. Well done to itv for putting this programme together to help expose this.

[IanMcL]

Will watch but not as yet. I remember it well at the time. Also, many Indians being ostracised from their community, through shame. Some, as stated in original post, committed suicide.

Those in the know should have been jailed.

[Acting Claret]

I wonder if this happened in the big post offices with multiple employees? If so the “debts” must have been phenomenal.

[Big Vinny K]

I wonder if this happened in the big post offices with multiple employees? If so the “debts” must have been phenomenal.

The Horizon system was integrated into all the Post Offices.
At the time I was working for one of the several banks that had to integrate our own systems into Horizon to allow our customers to deposit and withdraw at post offices as part of a commercial agreement a few banks had with the post office. I led the piece of integration work and the post office were incredibly incompetent and inexperienced in managing IT work. It was Fujitsu who built the Horizon system for them but the integration, testing and implementation of it across their network of post offices (18,000 of them at the time) was down to the Post Office. I know for a fact that they had many issues and defects and were massively behind budgets and timescales.

Without a doubt they launched it with defects - nobody knew at the time how serious it was (well I’m sure there were internal people at post office and Fujitsu who did).
I was not surprised when years later this came out - I know my back had many reconciliation issues with the post office which went on for years trying to solve.

There should be a lot of people from that organisation in prison right now.

Very tragic.

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

Private Eye was very pro-active in highighting this gross miscarriage of justice

[Commy]

The compensation came to about £20k per person so what happened to the money they put in out of their own pockets?

[Billyblah]

My understanding is that those affected were given an initial compensation payment whilst the Post Office and Government squabbles over agreeing full payments, meanwhile this has been going on for so long that some of the postal worker victims have now died.
Their families continue the fight for some sort of closure.

[FCBurnley]

Living abroad I have not heard anything about this saga but I will certainly be watching the series asap

[yTib]

you got itvx to work?

was going to bingewatch it but it would be quicker waiting the four days for it to appear on normal telly.

[oswyclaret]

Truly amazing series,actually makes your blood boil,at times.

Fantastic acting too...I remember it ,like it was yesterday.

Talk about heroes,a word used very loosely these days, mr bates certainly is one!!!

[DCWat]

My understanding is that those affected were given an initial compensation payment whilst the Post Office and Government squabbles over agreeing full payments, meanwhile this has been going on for so long that some of the postal worker victims have now died.
Their families continue the fight for some sort of closure.

Some lost their homes, I believe there was more than one suicide and many respectable people were seen as criminals within the communities that they had served for many years, without issue.

It simply shouldn’t have happened, never mind the years of denial and heads in the sand.

[Croydon Claret]

Anybody who tells you that computers don't make mistakes is lying to you. A computer programme is only as good as the people who worked on it and will consistently repeat their mistakes

In my (25 year) experience complex computer systems are:
- Designed by analysts who don't fully understand the requirements and haven't considered all the edge cases.
- Programmed by people who blindly follow the analyst's mistaken design to the letter, do not challenge any errors, and do not sufficiently unit test their own code to find any issues. Either due to lack of awareness or disinterest.
-Tested by people who assume that the design was correct and only look to prove the "happy path"

Outputs are only as reliable as the inputs

[claret2018]

One of my old clients got caught up in this. Obviously didn’t know anything about the scandal at the time so assumed they had been nicking the cash.

[Croydon Claret]

Anybody who tells you that computers don't make mistakes is lying to you. A computer programme is only as good as the people who worked on it and will consistently repeat their mistakes

In my (25 year) experience complex computer systems are:
- Designed by analysts who don't fully understand the requirements and haven't considered all the edge cases.
- Programmed by people who blindly follow the analyst's mistaken design to the letter, do not challenge any errors, and do not sufficiently unit test their own code to find any issues. Either due to lack of awareness or disinterest.
-Tested by people who assume that the design was correct and only look to prove the "happy path"

Outputs are only as reliable as the inputs

I'm generalising of course. There are many good people in the IT industry but sadly not everyone is as effective as they could be

[Caballo]

Just watched the 2nd programme. It's absolutely brilliant, and equally devastating at the same time.

[lakedistrictclaret]

Just watched the 2nd programme. It's absolutely brilliant, and equally devastating at the same time.

Totally agree. Compelling viewing.

[Bosscat]

Just watched the 2nd programme. It's absolutely brilliant, and equally devastating at the same time.

Exactly what Mrs BC have just said Caballo

[boatshed bill]

Just watched the 2nd programme. It's absolutely brilliant, and equally devastating at the same time.

Same here, it's actually shocking (in the right way of course).

[Bosscat]

Exactly what Mrs BC & I have just said Caballo

Edit

[Paul Waine]

I've not watched any of the Mr Bates tv programme, yet. I've been following the Horizon sub-post-office prosecution saga for a number of years.

The Horizon system was developed by ICL, originally a UK "competitor" for IBM. ICL had a major office (possibly their headquarters?) in Manchester. Fujitsu relationship started in 1980s with Fujitsu taking 10% stake. The relationship grew and in 1998 Fujitsu had 100% ownership.

In checking a few facts, I came across a Computer Weekly article, published in November 2000: Pathway and the Post Office: the Lessons Learned. www.computerweekly.com/feature/Pathway- ... ns-learned

Pathway was a failed computer project. I find it hard to make sense of the CW article. It speaks of an IT disaster. It quotes the National Audit Office as saying up to £1 billion of taxpayer money was wasted. The article also reports others as saying that Pathway is now Horizon - with changed plans for what it will deliver. CW quotes the Post Office (in a written response to CW): “IT projects are complex and difficult to forecast accurately. It is important to maintain a flexible and realistic approach to planning and targets throughout the life of a project. Judgement about whether the project is a disaster should be based on if it works when installed.”

This was all in late 2000. Given that Pathway had already been described as a disaster, it is not too much of a stretch of the imagination to understand how Post Office leadership became so entrenched with Horizon and they could not consider that Horizon had also failed. It's a horribly tragic situation that so many sub-post-office operators had to suffer because of the failings of the Post Office and their leadership.

[Big Vinny K]

The Post Office model was never sustainable.
As said they were around 18,000 post offices at the time but their strategy was to reduce these significantly.
Sub Post Masters were on a pretty good salary - many ex bank people when in their 40s or 50s would take redundancy and buy a post office business.

A lot of the processing in post offices was manual - and aswell as their salary sub post masters would be paid commission for processing all the many different types of transactions that used to be undertaken by people back in the day.

As the world began to change and banks were launching internet banking and centralised call centres (late 1990s) the whole industry changed dramatically and all banks were reducing their branch networks and branch staff (their biggest overheads).

The Post office was left with all the most expensive things to process - cash handling, pensions, unemployment benefits (cashing your giro). None of this stuff made any money - but cost a lot to process.

The only path they had to survival was automation and closing branches. Automation meant bringing in new systems - but at this time their were a number of failed attempts by several banks to bring in new mainframes and the Post Office was unique in what it was trying to automate so it was always destined to be a disaster.

In itself this would have not even made the news - other than a few people complaining about wasting tax payers money. But it was not the failed IT system that was the crime here - it was the board and senior management in the Post Office.
They deliberately lied and tried to protect their own jobs, bonuses and careers and even worse put the blame on to innocent people. If they would have simply admitted they got the IT development wrong they would have been no different or worse than the other banks or the failed IT system in the NHS or benefits system etc

And it’s for that reason that they should be a number of that senior management and executives in prison now.

[fidelcastro]

The compensation came to about £20k per person so what happened to the money they put in out of their own pockets?

Shareholders' profits.

Absolutely disgusting.

[evensteadiereddie]

A superb drama.
Funny how we went all those years being told the French, the Italians, the Spanish and so on were so, so corrupt but our police, politicians and judges were the fairest and most honest in the world.
Those victims had far more dignity in them than I think could have mustered.
If I'd lost a loved one, a house or life savings, I'd have wanted revenge - probably of an unpleasant and violent nature.

[Steddyman]

I watched all 4 episodes last night on ITV-X, but I won't spoil it.

A really good series. Shocking what the post office did.

[Accrington claret]

Brilliant drama, I think some people will be thinking about taking their savings out of the Post office, until heads roll at senior level

[Nori1958]

A superb drama.
Funny how we went all those years being told the French, the Italians, the Spanish and so on were so, so corrupt but our police, politicians and judges were the fairest and most honest in the world.
Those victims had far more dignity in them than I think could have mustered.
If I'd lost a loved one, a house or life savings, I'd have wanted revenge - probably of an unpleasant and violent nature.

Granted I've only watched the first 2 episodes, but how do you bring the police and judges into this?

[evensteadiereddie]

Sorry Norry, I was speaking in general terms about how, as a kid growing up in the Sixties, I remember how it was peddled that everything British - democracy, the police, the judicial system, the army etc etc were the world's best, most honest and most effective.
The police, of course, weren't involved in this scandal and I'm sorry if you assumed I said they were.
I'm pretty sure there's a judge or two involved in this series...
My point was that over the the last generation or so, it's becoming increasingly obvious that parts of this country are as screwed as anywhere else in the world if not more so.
The cynicism and cruelty of those responsible for this scandal is only compounded by the fact that the perps are still free, no doubt, to act and earn as they please.

[boatshed bill]

Sorry Norry, I was speaking in general terms about how, as a kid growing up in the Sixties, I remember how it was peddled that everything British - democracy, the police, the judicial system, the army etc etc were the world's best, most honest and most effective.
The police, of course, weren't involved in this scandal and I'm sorry if you assumed I said they were.
I'm pretty sure there's a judge or two involved in this series...
My point was that over the the last generation or so, it's becoming increasingly obvious that parts of this country are as screwed as anywhere else in the world if not more so.
The cynicism and cruelty of those responsible for this scandal is only compounded by the fact that the perps are still free, no doubt, to act and earn as they please.

And Paula Vennells gets a CBE

[evensteadiereddie]

Aye but she is a woman of God so that's alright then.
Should be in jail.

[AmbleClaret]

Aye but she is a woman of God so that's alright then.
Should be in jail.

Quite often people guilty of the worst crimes are also religious, must think it will redeem their behaviour somehow.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Watched first two episodes as above fantastic and devastating drama. Usual story of those at the top being allowed to get away with it. Vennells should be in a cell.

[Caballo]

ITV X'd it to the end, an absolute masterpiece of the small screen. Toby Jones was 'Marvellous'.

[Rowls]

Quite often people guilty of the worst crimes are also religious, must think it will redeem their behaviour somehow.

Quite often, people who are religious are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

What the 'red flag' should be (to use the vernacular current jargon) is people who are self righteous: People who believe they are morally justified are the ones capable of the worst behaviour. They are more capable of behaving badly because they believe they are beyond reproach.

This can apply to the religious but it equally applies to political beliefs.

In summary: It's not religion you need to watch our for; it's self-righteousness.

[boatshed bill]

Just watched episodes 3 and 4.
I am deeply shocked that this sort of injustice could happen.
What superb TV.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Yet happen it did.

With relatively little coverage overall.
I believe it was Private Eye who constantly pushed on it.

[Spijed]

Surely the police or others MUST have known some people were totally innocent. Yet it seems they'd rather some people get convicted than admit to their own mistakes.

[AmbleClaret]

It was Tony Blair who signed the initial contract with Fujitsu off despite being told it wasn't fit for purpose.

[Loyalclaret]

The police didn't seem to be involved, similar to DWP the post office can investigate and take to court.

[evensteadiereddie]

Quite often, people who are religious are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

What the 'red flag' should be (to use the vernacular current jargon) is people who are self righteous: People who believe they are morally justified are the ones capable of the worst behaviour. They are more capable of behaving badly because they believe they are beyond reproach.

This can apply to the religious but it equally applies to political beliefs.

In summary: It's not religion you need to watch our for; it's self-righteousness.

I'm not sure that the CEO was behaving as she was solely through self righteousness.
She knew exactly what was happening and protected her own arse and that of the Post Office no matter what.
More a case of hypocrisy, greed, corruption and self preservation., I'd argue.

[basil6345789]

Aye but she is a woman of God so that's alright then.
Should be in jail.

There's time yet